How do we fix Canada's Healthcare crisis?

mikedavid00 · December 7, 2006

So if this "Pakistani mother" is deemed unhealthy enough to live in Canada instead of moving for health convenience, then the sponsor is denied.

It's obvious you don't understand our immigration system and enternace requirements. You basically claim you are in good health and 'swear' you are telling the truth. You also need a letter from a doctor saying that you don't suffer from any health concerns. These letters are VERY common in these countries with some doctors doing nohting but these letters.

You have not researched this issues well enough so it's not worth debating. You are letting your emotions overtake logic and research.

You're hearing what you only want to beleive, not the truth.

guyser · December 7, 2006

It's obvious you don't understand our immigration system and enternace requirements. You basically claim you are in good health and 'swear' you are telling the truth. You also need a letter from a doctor saying that you don't suffer from any health concerns. These letters are VERY common in these countries with some doctors doing nohting but these letters.

You have not researched this issues well enough so it's not worth debating. You are letting your emotions overtake logic and research.

You're hearing what you only want to beleive, not the truth.

And again, where are your stats to back you up? Thats right there are none.

You just want to blame the mostly good immigrants who come here for a better life.

Admit, you hate these people and they are the reason for your vitriol.

Sir I know this much, I understand the immigration far more than you. I do not make wild claims without basis.

As if Imm Canada does not know about "these Doctors" , and they just believe everyone.

My emotions are not the issue here.They do NOT in fact cloud my thinking. Your diatribes against immigrants whoever do .

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

mikedavid00 · December 7, 2006

I didn't say they used it more, I said that they have used it when they have not paid into it their whole lives like we have. This is the sole reason why we have a deteriorating healthcare system in crisis.

CBS NEWS RECOGNIZES THESE FACTS, WHY DON"T YOU??? A MUST READ:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/...html?cmp=EM8705

"In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year".

Children don't pay into the system either. Are they banned from healthcare?

And healthcare is a pay as you go system. It means that taxes pay for healthcare. The majority of immigrants come to Canada and work and pay taxes. Do you have evidence that all 200,000 newcomers each years come to Canada and don't get jobs and pay taxes?

Well I'm done with this. You're not doing your research. You haven't reasearched how many immigrants/refugees join our workforce. Only 2/3rds of Canadians pay income tax at all.

Do your research, spend some time looking through stats and learning about our country and then come back and say that immigrant families work and spend into the system enough to cover their costs in services. You want to make up facts in your mind, but not research real numbers.

mikedavid00 · December 7, 2006

Children don't pay into the system either. Are they banned from healthcare?
And healthcare is a pay as you go system. It means that taxes pay for healthcare. The majority of immigrants come to Canada and work and pay taxes. Do you have evidence that all 200,000 newcomers each years come to Canada and don't get jobs and pay taxes?

Well 52% of immigrants who arrive in Canada are living in poverty 5 years after they have arrived here.

I was at a baby shower with mostly immigrants last month. There was a guy there who moved to Canada 3 years ago with his wife and now has 2 kids. He was clearly in has late 40's early 50's.

Do you feel that he is going to fully pay into our healthcare system to cover all his current and future medical expenses?

I was born here and have paid about $80,000 into the system so far. I estimate over $250,000 by the time I am retired.

Almost a million people enter Canada every three years by ordering a kit off the internet and filling out an application. They come here at any age, with no job prospects and entering the workforce late.

Eventually this WILL effect our healthcare system.

Why can't you grasp the fact that our system is degrading becaue we are servicing people who have not paid into it?

What is so hard about that law of economics?

guyser · December 7, 2006

Well I'm done with this. You're not doing your research. You haven't reasearched how many immigrants/refugees join our workforce. Only 2/3rds of Canadians pay income tax at all.

Do your research, spend some time looking through stats and learning about our country and then come back and say that immigrant families work and spend into the system enough to cover their costs in services. You want to make up facts in your mind, but not research real numbers.

Ahh....I see how you work.

make claim

Dont back it up

Get challenged on facts

tell us to do the research

Good job.

Further, you make a claim in that only 2/3 of people pay income tax. Well , I can see there being around 8-9M kids in this country , and lets add on a rough guesstimate of 3M retired people. Add in maybe 1M of unemployed and stay at home parents..... s'alright I will do the math for you.....

Lets see that adds up to a little over 13 million people. So out of a country of 33M , hmmm.....one third of that would be 11M.

So you are pretty darn close to perfect on that stat. ! Congrats.....oops.....you were trying to make a counter point and tripped on your own numbers. Don't you just hate when you do that?

I am sorry , who was to do some research?

Oh and just for you and my numbers ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada

guyser · December 7, 2006

Children don't pay into the system either. Are they banned from healthcare?

And healthcare is a pay as you go system. It means that taxes pay for healthcare. The majority of immigrants come to Canada and work and pay taxes. Do you have evidence that all 200,000 newcomers each years come to Canada and don't get jobs and pay taxes?

Well 52% of immigrants who arrive in Canada are living in poverty 5 years after they have arrived here.

I was at a baby shower with mostly immigrants last month. There was a guy there who moved to Canada 3 years ago with his wife and now has 2 kids. He was clearly in has late 40's early 50's.

Do you feel that he is going to fully pay into our healthcare system to cover all his current and future medical expenses?

I was born here and have paid about $80,000 into the system so far. I estimate over $250,000 by the time I am retired.

Almost a million people enter Canada every three years by ordering a kit off the internet and filling out an application. They come here at any age, with no job prospects and entering the workforce late.

Eventually this WILL effect our healthcare system.

Why can't you grasp the fact that our system is degrading becaue we are servicing people who have not paid into it?

What is so hard about that law of economics?

Nothing wrong with the law of economics.

Just that what you use to post is so far wrong it is laughable. Will you please get it through your cranium that we are not on this board to spew lies and innuendos.

Please show us where 52% of immigrants are in poverty within 5 years.Please include the whys, perhaps they were denied jobs? got layed off?plant closed? So give us the goods

Almost a million people enter Canada every three years. Are you including tourists? You better be.

These people dont agree....oh and this is the Govt website by the way. (psssst...I think they know a lil more than we do)

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo50a.htm

But let me help you out here. Since there are ...gasp...only a visible minority of 3.9M in Canada today your "made up point" about a million every three years is total hogwash. By your words and figures the immigrant populace would be 4million more people since 1994. (IOW we would have 8-9m immigrants)

So by the time you retire you will have paid $250,000 . Great and good for you. Dont have a heart attack or triple bypass in your 65th year , or you will have taken out a million more than you paid in.

What was that about people who dont pay in ? So..you are pissed off at yourself?

You know what I am newbie around here. I do want to follow protocol. But I do need to vent.

mikedavid.....get away from the computer now , go upstairs and get mom to make you a cup of hot chocolate.

(the moon is made of cheese....dont believe me..?...then you are not doing the research)

Argus · December 7, 2006

The French and Germans can afford it but we can't??

There's a cause and effect reason for everything.

Yes, there is a cause and effect for everything. French physicians make about 55,000 per year.

Source:

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2005/04/...h_care_fra.html

But according to the same source, France also spends "way less" than us, so it would appear to me that with our higher funding we ought to be able to afford higher salaries and still have comparable health care.

Saturn · December 7, 2006

The French and Germans can afford it but we can't??

There's a cause and effect reason for everything.

Yes, there is a cause and effect for everything. French physicians make about 55,000 per year.

Source:

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2005/04/...h_care_fra.html

But according to the same source, France also spends "way less" than us, so it would appear to me that with our higher funding we ought to be able to afford higher salaries and still have comparable health care.

The French spend about as much as we do. But they have 60% more doctors and French doctors make about a quarter of what our doctors make. So the French get more health care and we get crap.

Argus · December 7, 2006

"I entered Canada without a valid passport or travel document. Can I apply for permanent residence under the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class?

Yes. You can apply under the spouse or common-law partner in Canada class. However, you must obtain a valid passport or travel documents before CIC will grant you permanent residence."

Why not read through this site and learn a bit about your own country you live in:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomer/fact_health.html

You've shown no data that immigrants use the healthcare system more than other Canadians. Where is the data? You draw conclusions without evidence.

I think he's overplaying the immigrant card, but at the same time, he has a point. People do make far more use of health care when older, and far less when younger. Generally speaking, people under 50 make FAR less use of the health care system than those over 50. Thus the taxes they pay towards health care are mostly "profit" to the system. Those over 50, as a group, are a net drag on the system as they consume far more resources than they pay for. Now, the average age of immigrants is, I understand, only a year or two under the average for Canadians - which would put it around 35. Now we can forget the contributions children don't make, but it's not unfair to suggest these immigrants have contributed NOTHING for at least a dozen years when the average Canadian is already contributing tax dollars towards health care.

Further, immigrants of recent years are considerably poorer than those in earlier decades. They aren't adapting as well, and large numbers of them live in poverty. As we all know, if you live in poverty, or at least, are not very well-off, you do not contribute much, if anything in taxes. I don't think it's unfair to suggest an immigrant who comes here at thirty, fails to get a decent job, works sporadically in between pogey payments, and then retires, has contributed nothing to the net tax base.

It is also true that for some bizarre, altruistic reason, we have chosen to allow immigrants to Canada who have TV, who have Hepatitus, who are HIV positive, or even have AIDs and other diseases. That, of course, costs a bunch.

All of which is a factor, if not the principal factor MD seems to think it is. An aging population is also a heavy factor. Another heavy factor is bureacratic incomptence. Why, for example, has Ontario issued 300,000 more health care cards than it has people?

Another factor is waste by citizens who don't understand what health care costs. I think a small fee for visits to doctors would be a strong disincentive to go to the doctor every time you've got the sniffles.

And, finally, doctors and nurses are both paid too much here. As are are all other health industry workers, from cleaning staff to cafeteria workers to technicians and secretaries.

Argus · December 7, 2006

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

For a man who makes repeated demands of others to "back up" what they say you have so far backed up nothing you've said. So let's see you back this one up.

Saturn · December 7, 2006

It all comes down to this: the provincial medical associations are monopolies that do not want us to have good health care unless we give them a lot more money. It is extortion, nothing else!

The medical associations are nothing more than trade unions with special powers. In each province, the medical association sits down with the government at the barganing table every 3 years to negotiate a contract just like any other union whose members are paid by the government. Their business is not to provide health care or defend the interests of the health-care customers. Their business is to get more money and more priviledges for their members. And they have the power to restrict the number of their members so that the customers are forced to shell out more money. The law of supply and demand applies and the shorter the supply, the higher the price.

If the CAW had the power to licence every car dealership in every province and restrict the number of cars sold in the country to 20% less than what we need so that you had to sit on a waiting list for 8 months to get a car, you'd be going nuts and you'd want Buzz Hargrove hanged. But instead you are going "Oh, Canada is not rich enough to afford enough cars.", "The immigrants are using too many cars.", "Foreign cars are not up to our standards", "We should pay 60% more for cars. Then the CAW may be tempted to let us buy more cars and the waiting lists for cars may get shorter than 8 months.", "We demand the option to pay 60% more for a car, so that people who can pay extra do not have to wait so long to get a car." This is stupid, yet the medical associations and their friends have convinced you that the only way to solve the problem is to pay them more.

This privatization approach is absurd and it DOES NOT address the problem. Whether a MONOPOLY is public or private makes no difference whatsoever. What matters is that we a facing a monopoly and how far we are willing to let that monopoly go to mistreat us. Don't talk about economics here! What economic theory tells us is that competition is what's important if you want better service, not the type of ownership (public vs private). Don't confuse privatization with competition - a private monopoly is no better than a public one.

Saturn · December 7, 2006

I think he's overplaying the immigrant card, but at the same time, he has a point. People do make far more use of health care when older, and far less when younger. Generally speaking, people under 50 make FAR less use of the health care system than those over 50. Thus the taxes they pay towards health care are mostly "profit" to the system. Those over 50, as a group, are a net drag on the system as they consume far more resources than they pay for. Now, the average age of immigrants is, I understand, only a year or two under the average for Canadians - which would put it around 35. Now we can forget the contributions children don't make, but it's not fair to suggest these immigrants have contributed NOTHING for at least a dozen years when the average Canadian is already contributing tax dollars towards health care.

What kind of screwed-up, biased math is this? A child in Canada costs us close to half a million bucks from birth to graduation and that's before s/he can contribute anything to our society. Immigrants are grown people, over a third of them with university degrees, who even pay to have their applications processed. We haven't spent a penny on raising them and educating them. So why is a Canadian-born child, who already cost us half a million more entitled to services than a brand new immigrant, who hasn't cost us anything? Of course many immigrants don't find a job right away. Do you think that Canadian graduates find a job the day they graduate? Of course some immigrants take time to upgrade their language and professional skills when they come to Canada. What, no Canadians ever need retraining when jobs become obsolete (due to advancement in technology, etc.)? Immigrants pay taxes like everyone else - they pay income taxes, they pay sales taxes on everything they buy, they pay property taxes where they live. And what's the last time you saw a Chinese or a Sri Lankan homeless bum drunk on the street? I've never seen one. All the homeless people I've seen were whites and natives. Get over it! All your problems are not caused by the immigrants. In fact, seeing that only 3-4% of the population is native, the remaining 96-97% of us are immigrants.

White Doors · December 7, 2006

If you could hire a US programmer for $80K/year or a Spanish programmer for $40K/year, which would you choose?

This is a good example. The government has been saying we need more high tech workers, yet the market has been saturated with them. Does a GP have to be that much smarter than a computer programmer ?

GPs get $300-400K/year, which is 3-4 times more than a programmer with a Ph.D. in computer science. Somehow, I don't think that GPs are that much smarter and I don't think that they need to make even more.

First, GP's get paid to a business. Out of whioch comes all of their business expenses to pay their staff. Yes, that's right their receptionists, rent etc etc. Our GP's are grossly underpaid.

jdobbin · December 7, 2006

Lol.. are you denying the fact that we have emergency wiat room times and a waiting list and are in a crisis situation? Are you denying that we have a shortage of organs? Are you denying that a man's wife died from waiting 3 years on a liver transplant list. And her waiting got pushed back and back. The person before her on the list was waiting for only 3 months while the lady who was waiting for 3 years ended up dying.
Are you denying all this?

Are you denying that U.S. hospitals have waits in their emergency rooms. Are you denying that?

As for transplant waiting lists, they have long ones for that in the U.S. Are you suggesting that we harvest organs without consent?

jdobbin · December 7, 2006

I think he's overplaying the immigrant card, but at the same time, he has a point. People do make far more use of health care when older, and far less when younger. Generally speaking, people under 50 make FAR less use of the health care system than those over 50. Thus the taxes they pay towards health care are mostly "profit" to the system. Those over 50, as a group, are a net drag on the system as they consume far more resources than they pay for. Now, the average age of immigrants is, I understand, only a year or two under the average for Canadians - which would put it around 35. Now we can forget the contributions children don't make, but it's not fair to suggest these immigrants have contributed NOTHING for at least a dozen years when the average Canadian is already contributing tax dollars towards health care.
Further, immigrants of recent years are considerably poorer than those in earlier decades. They aren't adapting as well, and large numbers of them live in poverty. As we all know, if you live in poverty, or at least, are not very well-off, you do not contribute much, if anything in taxes. I don't think it's unfair to suggest an immigrant who comes here at thirty, fails to get a decent job, works sporadically in between pogey payments, and then retires, has contributed nothing to the net tax base.

It is also true that for some bizarre, altruistic reason, we have chosen to allow immigrants to Canada who have TV, who have Hepatitus, who are HIV positive, or even have AIDs and other diseases. That, of course, costs a bunch.

All of which is a factor, if not the principal factor MD seems to think it is. An aging population is also a heavy factor. Another heavy factor is bureacratic incomptence. Why, for example, has Ontario issued 300,000 more health care cards than it has people?

Another factor is waste by citizens who don't understand what health care costs. I think a small fee for visits to doctors would be a strong disincentive to go to the doctor every time you've got the sniffles.

And, finally, doctors and nurses are both paid too much here. As are are all other health industry workers, from cleaning staff to cafeteria workers to technicians and secretaries.

I'll agree that Ontario needs to tighten its controls on health cards.

Canada has rules on immigrants who apply to Canada with diseases that will cost the system. You can see for yourself on the Immigration website. They have to be in good health and have paperwork to that effect.

There are different rules on refugees.

Our aging population is mostly an internal problem. Immigration is generally younger than the average Canadian median age. Once again, since the system is a "pay as you go" system, it means that as soon as you get landed immigrant status, you are eligible for healthcare and well as working. In other words, the immigrant is on the whole paying taxes for their healthcare. They aren't drawing on a trust fund that the rest of Canada has already paid into the system.

One of the major reasons for increased costs in health besides an aging population is the use of diagnostic tools like MRIs, etc.

The costs of doctor and nurses salaries are dictated in part by the international market and proximity to the U.S. Canada probably gets a bargain than what the private market would bear for those people. Some nurses in the U.S. earn 50% more than Canadian ones. Doctors can earn a lot more (but that has to be measured by liability costs which are extremely high).

I think that an honest and open debate about how to keep costs in control can't start by saying that immigrants are the cause of higher spending.

guyser · December 7, 2006

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

For a man who makes repeated demands of others to "back up" what they say you have so far backed up nothing you've said. So let's see you back this one up.

Backed up nothing I have said?

Reading comprehension is needed then.

But anyhow, here you go, although I am loathe to agree with this woman, I must in this case

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/...12/1258334.html

or this...

http://www.scics.gc.ca/cinfo04/830812004_e.html

I dont demand proof on everything, but there are particular posters here who throw out ridiculous charges facts and figures that demand challenging.

blueblood · December 8, 2006

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

When the unemployment rate drops to about 1-2% then yah, but how about the homeless people and those on reserves, get them to alberta pronto!!!

jdobbin · December 8, 2006

When the unemployment rate drops to about 1-2% then yah, but how about the homeless people and those on reserves, get them to alberta pronto!!!

Most economists say when employment levels fall to 1%, you start getting inflation. You already see it in Alberta. Wages continue to go up, then costs start going up.

blueblood · December 8, 2006

When the unemployment rate drops to about 1-2% then yah, but how about the homeless people and those on reserves, get them to alberta pronto!!!

Most economists say when employment levels fall to 1%, you start getting inflation. You already see it in Alberta. Wages continue to go up, then costs start going up.

If the ratio stays the same (costs go up same as wages), then there shouldn't be any problem just more people working, more wealth, etc.

guyser · December 8, 2006

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

When the unemployment rate drops to about 1-2% then yah, but how about the homeless people and those on reserves, get them to alberta pronto!!!

I can't figure out if you agree or disagree ?

You do know that 1-2% unemployment is impossible to achieve?

Homeless people and those on reserves...what does that mean?

Listen to dobbin....he knows.

jdobbin · December 8, 2006

If the ratio stays the same (costs go up same as wages), then there shouldn't be any problem just more people working, more wealth, etc.

The ratio doesn't stay the same though. Economists and past experience tells us that costs go up faster than wages in low unemployment situations. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

I know that Alberta has a shortage of police. Calgary is in such dire need that they recruiting in Britain. You think they should go after the 3% who don't have jobs and make them police?

blueblood · December 8, 2006

If the ratio stays the same (costs go up same as wages), then there shouldn't be any problem just more people working, more wealth, etc.

The ratio doesn't stay the same though. Economists and past experience tells us that costs go up faster than wages in low unemployment situations. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

I know that Alberta has a shortage of police. Calgary is in such dire need that they recruiting in Britain. You think they should go after the 3% who don't have jobs and make them police?

If there is some of he 3% that are qualified, but for some reason don't have the opportunity to apply for various reasons then Hell Yeah.

jdobbin · December 8, 2006

If there is some of he 3% that are qualified, but for some reason don't have the opportunity to apply for various reasons then Hell Yeah.

Alberta police forces say that many are unqualified. Let's think who might be in that 3%. Some might be too young for the force, some too old. Some might wish to work part-time. Some may not be physically fit enough and for many others: they might not want to work in law enforcement.

Most economists believe that a healthy market for employers and employees probably lies between 5-7%.

blueblood · December 8, 2006

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

When the unemployment rate drops to about 1-2% then yah, but how about the homeless people and those on reserves, get them to alberta pronto!!!

I can't figure out if you agree or disagree ?

You do know that 1-2% unemployment is impossible to achieve?

Homeless people and those on reserves...what does that mean?

Listen to dobbin....he knows.

So those homeless people and people on reserves have to be screwed out of employment so Sanjay from pakistan can have his day?, no! Why should they be poor? Get those guys who are poor and don't have the opportunity out there working so they aren't a drain on social services, maybe the rate will drop to 4% with that I don't know, those reserves are a big problem, we cannot afford as a society to have an out of the way reserve like Kasechewan, where they don't contribute much to society and take tax dollars get them working and their poverty disappears.

guyser · December 8, 2006

And yes, this country is in dire need of immigrants.

When the unemployment rate drops to about 1-2% then yah, but how about the homeless people and those on reserves, get them to alberta pronto!!!

I can't figure out if you agree or disagree ?

You do know that 1-2% unemployment is impossible to achieve?

Homeless people and those on reserves...what does that mean?

Listen to dobbin....he knows.

So those homeless people and people on reserves have to be screwed out of employment so Sanjay from pakistan can have his day?, no! Why should they be poor? Get those guys who are poor and don't have the opportunity out there working so they aren't a drain on social services, maybe the rate will drop to 4% with that I don't know, those reserves are a big problem, we cannot afford as a society to have an out of the way reserve like Kasechewan, where they don't contribute much to society and take tax dollars get them working and their poverty disappears.

Ahh, now I get it.

Its the immigrants (sanjay from Pakistan) fault for having the initiative to get his butt out the door and find a job, but homeless people and those on reserves should have job opportunities brought to them.

So, should we wait for Oprah or Dr.Phil show to be over before we knock on the door and ask them if they will work?

As for reserves, dont muddy the message. Save that one for another post.

There are jobs begging to be filled in Alberta , but they can't find people to fill them. Well , except for Sanjay who might even work two jobs.