why the selectivity with Hamas and China?

[Higgly]

So if the Taliban kill two Canadians - we're not allowed to kill more than 2 of them in response?

And do bear in mind there are about 20 or 30 times as many Arabs as Jews. I don't think the Israelis can afford to trade casualties on a one on one basis.

I'd say there was something wrong if we kept up a constant reign of terror, murder and destruction in response to a few deaths. Israel has a history of this kind of over-reaction going back to the days following the 1948 war. Its approach has always been that lots of killing will discourage further attacks. All it has done is just get everybody hopping mad.

The point is that Israeli life is taken to be precious while Palestinian lives are treated as disposable.

You also keep bringing in the Arabs. Why don't we just stick to the Palestinians? One could just as easily broaden the argument to all Americans and Russians since so many Israelis come from there.

[bradco]

"what they'll want to do if ever we are seriously threatened right on our doorstep. I guess to them, giving in is a really serious option!"

I think this comment is utter nonsense typical of the right. If anyone is waiving the white flage to the terrorists its the conservatives, especially the Republican party. This isnt a war over territory it is a war over ways of life. How can anyone win that war if they are willing to abandon their own principles at the first sight of any troubles. We need liberals speaking up to keep the conservaitves from moving down the road that the terrorists want to see us take.

[Rue]

Arbor's position lends itself to such accusations. Remember that the last UN so-called Human Rights group was disbanded because of its blatant anti-semitism. The new group seems to be heading in the same direction. It's already roundly criticised Israel three times in its short lifespan, but found no reason to criticise, say, Sudan, or China or Uzbekistan - or anyone else.

If Arbour had anti-semitic tendencies, we would have heard about them from B'Nai Brith et al when she was appointed a Canadian Supreme Court justice. The woman didn't just suddenly become an anti-semite over-night. This tactic from the pro-Israel lobby is getting pretty old.

It is a moot point today Higgly. what is clear is she has made some very neutral balanced comments in the last day or so. It is a distinct change from her previous comments. She is now sounding exactly like the kind of person I would expect from her-someone trying to state things neutrally. Clearly someone in the UN handling her is doing a good job.

Here comments actually have been quite constructive in the last day or so.

I personally have never believed she is an anti-semite but I believe in the past she failed to conduct herself in a neutral manner on the issue of the conflict.

I do not myself call people anti-semites simply for being anti-Israeli. Where I get my cud to chewing is when there is a lack of differentiation between Israel and Jews in general and negative attributes and comments are made of Jews under the pretense its debate about Israel. Arbour certainly has never done that. My

annoyance was at past comments she made which were from a purely legal perspective just not appropriate for her to say. I think the concerns many of us had were not just concerns from Israelis or pro-Israelis or Jews but many jurists. She has certainly redeemed herself this last day or so and made a solid effort to show her neutrality. Not my cup of tea but I respect what she has done.

[Rue]

So if the Taliban kill two Canadians - we're not allowed to kill more than 2 of them in response?

And do bear in mind there are about 20 or 30 times as many Arabs as Jews. I don't think the Israelis can afford to trade casualties on a one on one basis.

I'd say there was something wrong if we kept up a constant reign of terror, murder and destruction in response to a few deaths. Israel has a history of this kind of over-reaction going back to the days following the 1948 war. Its approach has always been that lots of killing will discourage further attacks. All it has done is just get everybody hopping mad.

The point is that Israeli life is taken to be precious while Palestinian lives are treated as disposable.

You also keep bringing in the Arabs. Why don't we just stick to the Palestinians? One could just as easily broaden the argument to all Americans and Russians since so many Israelis come from there.

Higgly the arguement has been made by the PLO and Hamas not Israel that more Palestinians have died then Israelis in the conflict and therefore since more Palestinians die then Israelis, Israel should not defend itself. Let's be fair. It has been a propaganda tool for years. When Israel shoots back it is depicted as evil and then it is thrown in their face that since more Palestinians die in counter-attacks, they are evil.

No Israeli has ever made the arguement Israelis are more precious then Palestinians. In fact you should read the Israeli journals, and newspapers before you make such generalizations.

[Higgly]

It is a moot point today Higgly. what is clear is she has made some very neutral balanced comments in the last day or so. It is a distinct change from her previous comments. She is now sounding exactly like the kind of person I would expect from her-someone trying to state things neutrally. Clearly someone in the UN handling her is doing a good job.

Oh, so now it's a moot point. What she is doing now is no different from what she was doing when she made the statements that upset you, Rue. She is telling it like she sees it. I feel like that character Jack Nicholson once played. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!".

People like Arbour don't get handled by 'someone in the UN'. They tell the UN (and the rest of us) what they think.

[Higgly]

Higgly the arguement has been made by the PLO and Hamas not Israel that more Palestinians have died then Israelis in the conflict and therefore since more Palestinians die then Israelis, Israel should not defend itself. Let's be fair. It has been a propaganda tool for years. When Israel shoots back it is depicted as evil and then it is thrown in their face that since more Palestinians die in counter-attacks, they are evil.

No Israeli has ever made the arguement Israelis are more precious then Palestinians. In fact you should read the Israeli journals, and newspapers before you make such generalizations.

Nonsense, Rue. The truth is that Israel's killing is constant. When there are cease-fires, they are always broken by Israeli killing. It was like this all through the 2nd intifada and it is still like this now. Israel constantly kills Palestinians like other countries build highways and bridges.

As for Israeli lives being taken as more precious Rue, maybe you can explain why it is that the death of an Israeli is front page news and the death of a Palestinian is back page news.

[Rue]

To properly understand the selectivity that goes on when we discuss Palestinian and Israeli deaths in the conflict I think it is obvious as long as anyone person dies on either side, its unacceptable and morally Hamas or terrorism can not be justified in their terrorist actions by arguing more Palestinians die then Israelis. This is absurd for the very reason that the same Palestinians who die from Israeli retaliation die because of the same Hamas who have put them in the position of death and/or danger in the first place. Hamas is an accomplice before and after the fact to the death of any Palestinian who dies in an Israeli retaliatory action.

That said let us look at the selectivity and proaganda use of the death tolls

The International Policy Institute For Counter-Terrorism carefully analyzed the actual numbers of people who have died and here are their findings which I have summarized-and if you feel their numbers are not accurate keep in mind these are numbers independent third party organizations such as the Red Cross have verified;

-approximately 1450 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the "al-Aqsa Intifada", compared to more than 525 Israelis

-the above numbers ae misleading because Palestinians have lumped combatants in with noncombatants ir innocent civilians as well as Palestinian "collaborators" the PLO and Hamas murdered by their own compatriots

-when the 1,450 figure was analyzed in detail, it was then found that there were in fact 568 Palestinian noncombatant deaths, while Palestinians killed more than 420 Israeli noncombatants

-50% of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting and this does NOT include stone-throwers or "unknowns"

-Palestinians were in fact directly responsible for the deaths of at least 185 of their own number - or 1 of 8 Palestinians killed

-of the Israeli dead, almost 80% were noncombatants

-Israelis account for only about 25% of the total "Intifada" fatalities, but in fact represent 40 percent of the noncombatant victims

-when broken down by gender;

-women and girls account for 30% of all Israelis killed in the conflict, and 40%percent of Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians.

- in regards to Palestinian fatalities, 95% of the fatalities have been male

-fewer than 8 percent of Palestinians killed by Israel have been female

-while more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed overall, Israeli female fatalities far outnumber Palestinian female fatalities

-the ratio is 152 Israeli females compared to 61 Palestinian females - a ratio of 2.5 to 1

-if the comparison is restricted to noncombatant Israeli females killed by Palestinians and noncombatant Palestinian females killed by Israel, the difference is 42 Palestinians compared to 150 Israelis, a ratio of more than 3.5 to 1

-when breakdown by age;

-Israeli combatant fatalities are concentrated in a narrow age rang (due to deaths of soldiers in a uniformed army)

-Israeli noncombatants fatalities, in contrast, display a near-random age distribution which is as a result of these fatalities coming about from random attacjks of civilian targets

-in reverse Palestinian fatalities have a different pattern of age dustribution;

-Palestinian combatant fatalities, are also concentrated in a narrow age range, BUT Palestinian noncombatant fatalities show an age distribution heavily concentrated among teenagers and young adults

-when comparing "mature" noncombatant Israelis killed by Palestinians to "mature" Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, the Israeli death toll far exceeds the Palestinian and the Palestinians have killed at least 154 noncombatant Israelis aged 40 and over, while Israelis have killed 69 Palestinian noncombatants in the same age bracket

-this ratio is more than 2:1

-in regards to children and teenaged noncombatants killed in the conflict, the number of young children (under the age of 8-9 years old) is comparatively small (although more young Israeli children were killed as a proportion of total fatalities)

the no. of Palestinian children killed begins to increase at about 10 years of age, and jumps up dramatically between the ages of 12 and 14, but, the increase consists entirely of boys - the number of Palestinian girls killed shows no age-trend, and is very low for all ages

-young Israelis killed by Palestinians show a different profile; both boys AND girls show an increase starting at age 14 (perhaps a year earlier for boys), and just as many teenaged girls were killed as teenaged boys

-with Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, few female fatalities appear to be randomly distributed by age while the male fatalities, on the other hand, are overwhelmingly young (although, as noted above, relatively few are below the age of ten)

-in fact 66% of all Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel were boys and men between the ages of 13 and 30

-on the other hand Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians show a much closer balance between the sexes - as mentioned above, 3 of 8 were women and girl and slightly more girls than boys were killed below the age of 20

-the ratio is nearly one-to-one for those aged 60 and over

-in contrast to the high percentage of male Palestinian noncombatants between 13 and 30 years of age, only 27 percent of Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians were males from 13 to 30 years old

-the statistics show that Israeli noncombatants over the last 21 months have been killed essentially at random, as Palestinian terrorists have chosen to attack whichever civilian targets were accessible

-Palestinian fatalities, however, have been strongly concentrated within a particular population segment - teenaged boys and young men

-population segments like women or older people are not military targets; thus their higher prevalence among Israeli fatalities is an indication of the degree to which Palestinian terrorists have killed Israelis simply for the "crime" of being Israeli

-in contrast, Palestinian noncombatant fatalities have been overwhelmingly young (but over the age of 11) and male

-so in fact this pattern of Palestinian deaths completely contradicts PLO and Hamas and Al Jazeera accusations that Israel has "indiscriminately targeted women and children."

-the statistics indicate the vast majority of the Palestinians killed did not die as the result of random Israeli attacks on inhabited areas, or on mixed-sex crowds

-in fact the statistics verify that Palestinian men and boys engaged in behavior that brings them into conflict with Israeli armed forces and then death

-the highly specific pattern of Palestinian noncombatant fatalities suggests that many of these deaths have resulted from an active Palestinian indoctrination campaign glorifying "martyrdom" - effectively encouraging boys and young men to confront Israeli forces and risk death even when there was no real likelihood of causing material harm to Israelis

What is extremely disturbing are recent developments which seem to suggest Hamas has caught on that Israel is being selective in shooting back and so now have upped the ante by bring in women to surround Hamas missile sites-this is a deliberate attempt to get Palestinian women killed to create a political propaganda back-lash and Israel has to smarten up and not respond and walk into this provocation in my opinion

My point is, it is absolutely misleading to suggest Israel hasno moral right to defend itself because less Israelis die not just for moral reasons, but because when one actually breaks down the number they can see Israel is not involved in indiscriminate mass muder in response as Hamas would depict it.

It may be undesireable for Israel to shoot civilians in response, but it is certainly more dispicable and more repulsive that Hamas has deliberately used its civilians as propganda tools and uses their deaths or injuries as a proganda tool to pit opinion against Israel.

I think what we are going to see now is a change of tactic by the IDF now that Hamas is openly using women and children as shields. What their new tactics will be I do not know but one obvious tool is setting up walls to avoid contact in its entirety. Another may be midnight raids and strategic assassinations of Hamas leaders.

Of course if Hamas was neutralized once and for all, it would make the whole issue a moot point. The question is who has the balls do call Hamas for what they are. It certainly looks like Lebanese are not afraid to call Hezbollah out as terrorists. Will Palestinians do the same or continue to allow themselves to be killed and used as pawns for Hamas?

[Higgly]

The International Policy Institute For Counter-Terrorism is an Israeli propaganda organization. The former Director of MOSSAD and a senior official in the Prime Minister's office are 2 of the 3 members on its board of directors. Many of the staff positions are filled by retired soldiers and former Israeli diplomats/bureaucrats. Here's a link. Click on "About ICT" to see the staff roster.

Israel has a habit of blowing up Palestinians and then referring to it as an 'industrial accident'. This is Israeli humour, such as it is.

The Israelis killed 67 people last week alone, including an entire family asleep in their beds. One Israeli died. That was an unusual week - usually no Israelis die.

Your comments about women surrounding missile sites so that they can be killed as a propaganda exercise is naive at best and cynical at worst. They do it because they want to stop the Israeli killing machine and it is the only way they can think to do it. Apparently even that is not working, but they probably don't care. I imagine they hate Israel so much after 60 years of constant murderous and barbaric repression that they are willing to die out of pure spite.

My suggestion to you, Rue, is that you are the one who needs to change his reading material.

[Black Dog]

To properly understand the selectivity that goes on when we discuss Palestinian and Israeli deaths in the conflict I think it is obvious as long as anyone person dies on either side, its unacceptable and morally Hamas or terrorism can not be justified in their terrorist actions by arguing more Palestinians die then Israelis. This is absurd for the very reason that the same Palestinians who die from Israeli retaliation die because of the same Hamas who have put them in the position of death and/or danger in the first place. Hamas is an accomplice before and after the fact to the death of any Palestinian who dies in an Israeli retaliatory action.

So heads I win, tails you lose, eh? How about the possible correlation between suicide bombing and targeted killings by Israel?

Moreover, the reality is that Palestinian suicide bombings are largely the product of an almost predictable cycle of violence between Palestinian militant groups and Israeli occupation forces. The vast majority of the over 100 Palestinian suicide bombings since they began in 1994 have followed Israeli assaults that resulted in major civilian casualties or Israeli assassinations of important militant leaders.

Palestinian militant groups appear to have adopted a routine policy of responding to civilian massacres and especially assassinations with suicide bombings.

This fact explains why Ariel Sharon's escalation of military assaults on Palestinian civilian areas and his aggressive employment of extrajudicial assassinations of key militant leaders over the past few years have amplified the organisational triggers for suicide bombings, leading to the upsurge in suicide attacks.

...

Israel could easily refrain from actions that kill Palestinian civilians and could suspend the assassination campaign of militants. Moreover, Israel could offer a political vision attractive enough to enable Palestinians to mobilise the growing opposition to suicide bombings within Palestinian society around peace negotiations with Israel, thereby marginalising militant organisations and depriving them of the crucial support they depend upon to gain recruits and conduct their operations.

I think what we are going to see now is a change of tactic by the IDF now that Hamas is openly using women and children as shields. What their new tactics will be I do not know but one obvious tool is setting up walls to avoid contact in its entirety. Another may be midnight raids and strategic assassinations of Hamas leaders.

Interesting that when the Palestinians meet violence with violence, they are terrorists. When they adopt passive resistance techniques, they are dupes and pawns of Hamas. Again: heads I win, tails you lose. In your view, Hamas seems to weild a tremendous amount of power and influence ove rteh psyches of the average Palestinian, a view I think severely overstates their influence.

Of course if Hamas was neutralized once and for all, it would make the whole issue a moot point. The question is who has the balls do call Hamas for what they are. It certainly looks like Lebanese are not afraid to call Hezbollah out as terrorists. Will Palestinians do the same or continue to allow themselves to be killed and used as pawns for Hamas?

What's the alternative for them right now? Is there any reason to believe Israel will change its policy vis a vis the Palestinian question if every terorist attack stopped tomorrow?

[Rue]

The International Policy Institute For Counter-Terrorism is an Israeli propaganda organization. The former Director of MOSSAD and a senior official in the Prime Minister's office are 2 of the 3 members on its board of directors. Many of the staff positions are filled by retired soldiers and former Israeli diplomats/bureaucrats. Here's a link. Click on "About ICT" to see the staff roster.

Israel has a habit of blowing up Palestinians and then referring to it as an 'industrial accident'. This is Israeli humour, such as it is.

The Israelis killed 67 people last week alone, including an entire family asleep in their beds. One Israeli died. That was an unusual week - usually no Israelis die.

Your comments about women surrounding missile sites so that they can be killed as a propaganda exercise is naive at best and cynical at worst. They do it because they want to stop the Israeli killing machine and it is the only way they can think to do it. Apparently even that is not working, but they probably don't care. I imagine they hate Israel so much after 60 years of constant murderous and barbaric repression that they are willing to die out of pure spite.

My suggestion to you, Rue, is that you are the one who needs to change his reading material.

That is the best you can do. Call it a propaganda apperatus and then respond with emotional opinions that are not based on any facts?

If you want to debate Higgly, then go on out, take the numbers presented above, and prove they are wrong with other statistics. To simply respond with name calling is ridiculous.

You clearly have reverted now into responding simply with unsubstantiated opinions as opposed to facts.

For your information the study above as much as you would like to disaparage it and name call it, worked with statistics verified by neutral sources, i.e., Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and The Red Cross. The numbers don't like Higgly no matter how much you want to engage in name calling.

For you to make the comment that Israel has engaged in murderous and barbaric repression I guess is the kind of comment you now have to throw out since you have no statistics, no facts, nothing objective to base your emotional name calling.

For you to make such comments shows where this debate is heading and I will not engage you further or respond to such emotional name calling. Its pointless. I will discuss historic facts and statistics with anyone who cares. If you want to engage in name calling, you will not do it with me. It is precisely your kind of answers that only promulgate hatred and do nothing to assist constructively in understanding this is not a ne sided issue.

I also want to go on record and state I do not believe for one moment you have been to Israel, the West Bank or Gaza. I do not believe you because no one I have known who have been to any of these places engages in the kind of language you do - not even Palestinians who hate Israel. They actually use far different words and phrases in their responses based on information and a kind of psychological anger you will never understand but seem to think you do.

[Rue]

"So heads I win, tails you lose, eh? How about the possible correlation between suicide bombing and targeted killings by Israel?"

This is silly. You are saying the suicide bombings only come about because Israel attacks. How much more silly can you get. Civilians die because Israel does NOT initiate attacks it responds to them, and when responding kills civilians. You know full well that while Hamas deliberately shoots at Israeli civilians and then deliberately hides behind Palestinian civilians putting them in harm's way, Israel does not initiate attacks against civilians, does niot use suicide bombers to attack civilians, and in fact has been telephoning and sending pamphlets warning civilians of its responses. Your comments are absurd in that they attempt to suggest the country defending itself against the initiated terrorist attacks, is the one initiating the problem. Give it up. Even Hamas' leaders have been quoted laughing at Westerners like you who try defend them using such "logic". They ridicule people like you for being so easily manipulated. Unlike you Hamas doesn't even believe your kind of arguement. They are quite clear in their manifestoes and speeches they are deliberately killing their people to push their cause. Funny they can admit what they are doing but you need to engage in this kind of blaming the victim arguement.

"Palestinian militant groups appear to have adopted a routine policy of responding to civilian massacres and especially assassinations with suicide bombings."

You are again completely wrong. Absolutely wrong, They are not responding to civilian massacres they are escalating the conflict. They deliberately assure civilians are killed, and then use that as a pretense to further incite and prolong and hatchet up the attacks.

It is very very simple. Don't shoot rockets at Israel-don't send in suicide bombers, and you will ber hear from Israel.

"This fact explains why Ariel Sharon's escalation of military assaults on Palestinian civilian areas and his aggressive employment of extrajudicial assassinations of key militant leaders over the past few years have amplified the organisational triggers for suicide bombings, leading to the upsurge in suicide attacks. "

There you go again trying to twist and distort and blame the victim. Your comments are baseless and clearly assume Hamas is right to shoot missles and send in suicide bombers, but Israel had and has no right to defend itself. As a result your one sided analysis has zero credibility. Israel did not escalate anything. I challenge you to provide the statistics to show Israel initiated anything as opposed to responded to attacks,

"Israel could easily refrain from actions that kill Palestinian civilians and could suspend the assassination campaign of militants. "

This in a nutshell is exactly the kind of statement that shows just how one sided and bias you are. How can you tell a tiny country that has had so many die from constant terrorist attacks that it is easy to ignore missiles and suicide boombers. Are you not embarassed when you make such comments? Do you realize how sheltered and ridiculous it makes you sound? You going to play the same game as Higgly-that Palestinians engage in terror because they are victims, but when Israelis try defend themselves against terrorism they are oppressors?

If you knew anything about the mentality of terrorists and the reality of the size and space of where the attacks were happening-if you understood the psychological and physical impact a missile attack has even if it does not kill anyone-if you saw someone die from a terrorist attack, you wouldn't say such knee-jerk

simplistic things. Clearly these are the words of someone who lectures about how easy it is because you have never had to feal afraid or be shot at or constantly wondering when the next attack comes. Each time you make a comment like that, I can not take what you say seriously.

"Moreover, Israel could offer a political vision attractive enough to enable Palestinians to mobilise the growing opposition to suicide bombings within Palestinian society around peace negotiations with Israel, thereby marginalising militant organisations and depriving them of the crucial support they depend upon to gain recruits and conduct their operations."

This without a doubt has to be the most bizarre thing you have stated to date. What exactly do you mean by

"political vision attractive enough to enable". It is easy for you to once again play the name game and say, it is up to Israel, its Israel's fault, but when you point the finger at Israel, as you did again, do you even know what you mean? Is this "political vision" you talk about real or is it just you shooting off because you know full well you haven't a clue what political vision it is. Come on. Tell us all. Since you are lecturing Israel-let us in on it-explain this vision.

For those of us who do not engage in such deliberate rhetoric that has no substance we know this-Israel time and time again has created and set up economic associations with Palestinians. You do not know this because you have never been there and talk like an expert about things you have no clue about.

Israel did create business support groups, social agencies, community liaisons, health exchanges, decentralized municipal government. There were many non profit organizations providing peaceful alternatives to terror. For you to lecture about it now is hilarious. Not only did Israel meet its 50% of the moral equation bv reaching out, but all these initiatives one by one were destroyed by Hamas. In your world of pretend make believe as to Israel and lecturing it, you have no clue what the PLO and Hamas actually did.

The PLO first gutted these initiatives and stole all the money leaving their citizens destitute. When Hamas took over it threatened anyone with death who cooperates with Israel.So please before you lecture Israel on its moral duties read and find out what actually happened when Israel did try.

"Interesting that when the Palestinians meet violence with violence, they are terrorists. When they adopt passive resistance techniques, they are dupes and pawns of Hamas. "

Are you this unaware of what terrorism is that you make such statements? If Palestinian women, and for that matter all Palestinians engaged in genuine passive resistance they would not shoot missiles into Israel or send in suicide bombers. Your comment is ridiculous,. The portion of behaviour where Palestinian civilians cloak terrorists is not passive resistance as long as it is attached to an act of violence and you know it. Think about what you write for heavens sake. You are equating being used as a shield to protect someone who just finished shooting a missile as passive!! How is that passive?

Let me spell this out to yoou loud and clear. Using humans as shields in the heat of battle to hide behind after you shoot is NOT passive resistance and for you to say it is and equate it to what Muhatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela did is absolutely pathetic.

You think it is commendable and noble to hide behind civilians? Come clean, because you have just done one hell of a number trying to say serving as shields to protect terrorists is passive resistance.

"Again: heads I win, tails you lose. In your view, Hamas seems to weild a tremendous amount of power and influence ove rteh psyches of the average Palestinian, a view I think severely overstates their influence."

Again when a group like Hamas can incite its civilians to shield terrorists and risk their lives doing so, it obviously has great influence or do you think being willing to die comes about lightly?

"What's the alternative for them right now? Is there any reason to believe Israel will change its policy vis a vis the Palestinian question if every terorist attack stopped tomorrow?"

Listen to the question and then ask yourself-what gives you the right to suggest if there was no terror Israel

would not respond. Where do you get off even hinting Israel would continue attacking Palestinians if there were no more terrorist actions? Where do you get off? Were you in Israel when Palestinians and Israelis peacefully co-existed when there was no terrorism? No. If you had lived during that time period, you would not ask such questions.

No one, Palestinian or Israeli who has suffered through this b.s., for one second believes terrorism is the solution not even Hamas or Hezbollah.

The alternative to peacefully co-exist in a nation has always been there. Ask yourself why you keep trying to blame Israel for the fact that the Palestinian community has not chosen it. Why is it you constantly blame Israel and never, not once, ask youself about who are the Palestinian leaders, and what are their visions and what have they done for their people. Until you do, people like me can not take what you say seriously because all you are doing is playing the blame game and scape-goating Israel for many questions and issues that must be created and formulated by Palestinians not Israelis.

[Higgly]

That is the best you can do. Call it a propaganda apperatus and then respond with emotional opinions that are not based on any facts?

This is ironic, coming from you, Rue. I recall getting the same sort of response from you to my post about the 1948 war - you attacked my sources calling them "revisionist" and went on a multi-post emotional rant. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The International Policy Institute For Counter-Terrorism is an adjunct to the Israeli defense establishment. In any conflict, the last place to trust for information about the other side is the military. The first casualty of war is truth, and there are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics.

To re-iterate my point, Rue. Israeli extra-judicial murders have continued unabated while Palestinian suicide attacks have just about some to a complete halt. Whatever the death count might have been as the 2nd intifada wound down, the Israelis have continued to ratchet up the numbers. Most often, when they take out someone described as a 'militant' (certainly a useful, if meaningless term) they invariably blow off at least a couple of innocent bystanders.

[Rue]

Higgly you lost any credibility you had in this debate by simply reverting to Zionist name calling and not countering with statistics of objective facts to repudiate what I presented. All you are doing now is responding with name calling.

For example, you simply dismissed the statistics I provided analyzing the actual deaths simply by stating the Institute I quoted was a propaganda organization because its director was the head of Mossad.

I note you didn't go out and prove the statistics they used were fabricated or in fact even bothered to point out why you came to the conclusion its methodology for gathering statistics was wrong, you merely called it a name.

The methodology this institute uses to gather its statistics are well disclosed and even though you feel you can simply dismiss the organization simly because its members are Israelis.

Here is its public disclosure of its methodology;

"The greatest care and effort in carrying out this project has been spent in gathering and evaluating enough information on each fatal incident to enable accurate classification of each claimed fatality. Reliable and detailed data on Israeli casualties of the al-Aqsa conflict has been relatively easy to find, as this information is extensively reported in Israeli and foreign newspapers, as well as various official and unofficial websites. Palestinian Arab fatalities present much greater difficulty, for several reasons:

Arab names are often long and complex; in many cases different sources give different casualty names for the same incident, and it is difficult to ascertain whether the different names in fact refer to the same person.

Detailed reports of Palestinian casualties are generally provided by Palestinian organizations and individuals; in some cases these reports are “slanted” or even fraudulent, due to pressures to paint Israel in as negative a light as possible.

The Israel Defense Forces do not keep a precise record (or at least have not so far provided such a record to us) of every time, place, and circumstance where weapons have been used; thus, certain Palestinian reports of fatalities due to Israeli fire cannot be confirmed or refuted. In many cases, we have given the Palestinian account of events the benefit of the doubt, even though the casualties may have resulted from Palestinian actions, rather than Israeli actions. In cases where the cause of death as reported by Palestinian sources is very much open to question, we have assigned a Low confidence Level to that particular casualty.

We have made extensive use of mainstream media outlets, both in Israel and abroad, for the details of al-Aqsa conflict incidents. Information on Palestinian casualties has been gathered from Arabic-language newspapers, cross-correlated with reports from human-rights organizations in Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Unfortunately, these sources generally disagree on many significant details, including the name, age, and circumstances of death of victims. It should be noted that, since no Israeli official body has been keeping records of Israeli actions and their results, the information reported by the Western media has come almost exclusively from Palestinian sources. "

To make a long story short, the statistics it uses are the SAME statistics the PLO use. So your trying to dismiss the analysis by name calling has no credibility and as I said again if you are prepared to show where this methodology is deffective-I would like to know.

Now finally, in response to your repeated name calling of Israel you have repeated yet again another type of

myth that is common in people like you who feel that Israel is BAD, Palestine is GOOD.

The myth repeats that the Palestinians are attached by Israel, and that is the only reason Hamas does what it does. It is only acting defensively and it is Israel initiating the attacks.

This is of course a deliberate twisting of the facts.

What Hamas does is to say to the West, that it will stop shooting missiles at Israel if they agree not to fight back.

People like you Higgly pick up on this and then make a simplistic conclusion that if Israel were to stop so would Hamas.

You do so because you live in Canada, completely removed from the actual theatre of conflict and oblivious to what Hamas is doing while it tells the West the above.

What you describe as a lull where Israel continues to attack for no reason is based on your lack of understanding that Hamas does not simply turn into boy-scouts when it is not launching missiles.

Israel continues to assassinate its leaders even while you think there is a lull for one basic reason-these leaders during the lull are preparing more attacks whether they be suicide bombings or missile attacks.

They are not simply becoming peaceful law abiding citizens who if only not provoked would be nice and calm and benevolent. That is the b.s. you believe based on assuming what they are because you do not know who they are. I repeat you have no clue who Hamas is otherwise you or for that matter Black Dog would not summarily dismiss Hamas time and time again as victims or innocent people who only attack when provoked.

I challenge you to tell us when you actually went to the Gaza, West Bank, or anywhere in Israel as you inferred you did. Because if you did your perspective on Hamas and what they do during these lulls

would not be the same.

May I respectfully ask you to read their charter and please understand that this is not an organization that

is peaceful or will simply stop its terrorism if Israel stops.

For those of us who have engaged in direct dialogue between Palestinians and Israelis we know there are certain people and groups that would consider peace but others who never will and that is something you just keep selectively ignoring. Read their charter. Read the articles they write to each other about not stopping until all Jews (not just Israelis are killed). Before you try depict them as a peaceful organization that is merely defending its people make the effort to read its charter.

Here are but a few of the charter's words;

"Article Twenty-Eight:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.

As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Article Thirty-One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).

Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."

"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

The Attempt to Isolate the Palestinian People:

Article Thirty-Two:

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. "

The next time you and BlackDog tell anyone how easy it is to just ignore the above-think about who it is you are talking about. Read. This is an organization that incites hate in the name of Islam and refers to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a source for its beliefs. Surely even you are aware the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was fiction drafted by the Czar of Russia's secret police as a deliberate attempt to scapegoat Jews in Russia to take re-direct peoples'n attention away from the collapsing economy.

This is an organization whose charter continually quotes the Koran to justify its hatred. The Koran was quite clear that no Muslim should attack women, children, the elderly or any religious figure or involve them in war, and yet Hamas' charter calls on women and children to fight and be used as weapons. Read it. These are people whoa re fundamentalist Muslims who want all of the Middle East returned to a Muslim theocracy.

These are not innocent freedom fighters as you try depict them as. If you had been through the Gaza or the West Bank you would also know many Palestinians do not agree with their beliefs but are powerless to stop them right now and won't be able to until neutral third parties contain them and in so doing, take away Israel's need to keep fighting them.

If and when the Muslim world finds the courage to distance itself from its fellow Muslims who use the Koran to justify hilling and hatred-then will it be able to reach out to Jews and Christians who have already done the same thing with their religions.

[mcqueen625]

Where are all the nations that condemn Israel for human rights violations when it comes to dealing with China? That I would like to know. During the last several days Stephen Harper raised human rights issues within China on the international stage and all the same countries that condemn Israel for its human rights violations where were they?

For that matter where are the Liberals, NDP and Block Quebecois on this issue? These are the same parties that criticize Harper for being pro-US and right wing but when he actually does something unique and clearly different then US foreign policy and that is to call China out on human rights violations, where is Jack Layton or Michael Ignatieff or Bob Rae, etc.?

As for this two-faced hippocracy why should I not be suprised. Hamas fires rockets into Israel and the European Union is completely silent. Israel fires back and kills civilians, and that and only that is

singled out and condemned.

Just yesterday Hamas fired 8 rockets into Israel, specifically into Sderot. Last week someone died from these missiles in Sderot and yesterday someone was seriously injured.

That we hear no one condemning. But we do hear about Palestinian civilians killed or injured when Israel fires back.

I am the first to be fair and criticize Israel and say they need to engage in alternative methods to defend themselves to avoid unecessary civilian casualties. Why is it no one but no one who criticizes Israel, also will be fair and state what Hamas is doing is the cause of this problem and until Hamas is condemned and stopped from firing rockets, this will not end and more Palestinian civilians will be placed in harms way and die?

How is it Hamas finds it so easy to shoot and then use humans as shields?

How has this come about so that now Hamas feels empowered into using Palestinian civilians as shields, it has now turned this into a deliberate tactic and it shoots missiles then surrounds the missile site with

civilians?

Why is no one condemning Hamas for this cynical manipulation of civilians?

Why is it the press does not indicate that Israel has in fact been telephoning Palestinian civilians and warning them they would be shooting back?

Why is it the press is silent when Mohammed Baroud, one of the proponents of shooting missiles into Israel deliberately uses civilian homes to shoot his missiles. What kind of man shoots missiles and then hides behind civilians?

You think it is heroic and principled to shoot missiles at civilians, and then hide behind your own civilians?

What manner of behaviour is this? Is it any wonder Hamas feels they can get away with it when the press will only criticize Israel when they shoot back but remain silent when Hamas uses civilians as shields?

Each time the press and the world remains silent against such behaviour they empower Hamas to continue using humans as shields and unless the world is as loud in condemning Hamas for using civilians as shields and for shooting at civilians-their silence will simply fuel more of these attacks.

What sickens me is Mosques and Palestinian t.v. and radio now openly encourage people to be used as shields to hide and protect Hamas after missile atacks.

What kind of absolute hippocracy is this? Islam forbids the harming of children, women, the elderly, and civilians and yet Mosques and their religious leaders are not only openly calling on Hamas to kill Israeli civilians but now preach to women, children and the elderly that they should use themselves as pawns.

Interestingly Mr. Abbas refuses to condemn Hamas.

So we are down to this now-civilians embolded by the double standard of the Westernm world and fueled by its bias, now openly screaming for the destruction of Israel because the West is too gutless to condemn Hamas just as they have remained silent with China and so many other nations and groups that engage in

terror and human rights violations.

Meanwhile in Lebanon, more and more Lebanese are slowly coming out and criticizing Hezbollah and its tactics and demanding a return to democracy and an end to militias and terrorist groups.

The question is will Palestinians ever find the courage to tell Hamas that there is another way other then violence and screaming out hatred and the destruction of the State of Israel.

What will it take to get the majority of Palestinians who are not being manipulated in this manner to come out and codemn their own people when they do this?

Thank God, someone who notices this as well. I also notice that Koffi Annan the hypocrit condemns Israel for defending themselves but always comes out on the side of these terrorist groups Hamas, Hezbollah and their supporters in Syria and Iran. Why is it that these cowardly Imam's who are the same people preaching " Death to America" and "Death ot Israel" are not putting themselves in harms way. In fact they are hiding behind the very women and children with the extremists. What a bunch of cowards! If they are so convinced they are right, why aren't they standing at the front of the terrorists and leading leading them instead of hiding? Cowards, cowards, cowards!

As for China, the Liberals, NDP and the EU are more interested in exploiting the chinese workers all in the name of trade (money) than they are in human rights for the chinese people. Mexico is the same, these large multinational corporations are exploiting the workers by paying poverty wages and banking huge profits while the workers themselves are barely existing. This is the vision multinational would like to see for all workers the world over, although I often wonder who they think is eventually going to buy the goods they are manufacturing. Even in Canada the wage gap between rich and poor has grown to the point that the middle class has virtually been eliminated altogether. What we now have in Canada is a situation where more and more people who use food banks are actually the working poor, and not the people everyone associates with using food banks, the people on income assistance.

[mcqueen625]

Higgly you lost any credibility you had in this debate by simply reverting to Zionist name calling and not countering with statistics of objective facts to repudiate what I presented. All you are doing now is responding with name calling.

For example, you simply dismissed the statistics I provided analyzing the actual deaths simply by stating the Institute I quoted was a propaganda organization because its director was the head of Mossad.

I note you didn't go out and prove the statistics they used were fabricated or in fact even bothered to point out why you came to the conclusion its methodology for gathering statistics was wrong, you merely called it a name.

The methodology this institute uses to gather its statistics are well disclosed and even though you feel you can simply dismiss the organization simly because its members are Israelis.

Here is its public disclosure of its methodology;

"The greatest care and effort in carrying out this project has been spent in gathering and evaluating enough information on each fatal incident to enable accurate classification of each claimed fatality. Reliable and detailed data on Israeli casualties of the al-Aqsa conflict has been relatively easy to find, as this information is extensively reported in Israeli and foreign newspapers, as well as various official and unofficial websites. Palestinian Arab fatalities present much greater difficulty, for several reasons:

Arab names are often long and complex; in many cases different sources give different casualty names for the same incident, and it is difficult to ascertain whether the different names in fact refer to the same person.

Detailed reports of Palestinian casualties are generally provided by Palestinian organizations and individuals; in some cases these reports are “slanted” or even fraudulent, due to pressures to paint Israel in as negative a light as possible.

The Israel Defense Forces do not keep a precise record (or at least have not so far provided such a record to us) of every time, place, and circumstance where weapons have been used; thus, certain Palestinian reports of fatalities due to Israeli fire cannot be confirmed or refuted. In many cases, we have given the Palestinian account of events the benefit of the doubt, even though the casualties may have resulted from Palestinian actions, rather than Israeli actions. In cases where the cause of death as reported by Palestinian sources is very much open to question, we have assigned a Low confidence Level to that particular casualty.

We have made extensive use of mainstream media outlets, both in Israel and abroad, for the details of al-Aqsa conflict incidents. Information on Palestinian casualties has been gathered from Arabic-language newspapers, cross-correlated with reports from human-rights organizations in Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Unfortunately, these sources generally disagree on many significant details, including the name, age, and circumstances of death of victims. It should be noted that, since no Israeli official body has been keeping records of Israeli actions and their results, the information reported by the Western media has come almost exclusively from Palestinian sources. "

To make a long story short, the statistics it uses are the SAME statistics the PLO use. So your trying to dismiss the analysis by name calling has no credibility and as I said again if you are prepared to show where this methodology is deffective-I would like to know.

Now finally, in response to your repeated name calling of Israel you have repeated yet again another type of

myth that is common in people like you who feel that Israel is BAD, Palestine is GOOD.

The myth repeats that the Palestinians are attached by Israel, and that is the only reason Hamas does what it does. It is only acting defensively and it is Israel initiating the attacks.

This is of course a deliberate twisting of the facts.

What Hamas does is to say to the West, that it will stop shooting missiles at Israel if they agree not to fight back.

People like you Higgly pick up on this and then make a simplistic conclusion that if Israel were to stop so would Hamas.

You do so because you live in Canada, completely removed from the actual theatre of conflict and oblivious to what Hamas is doing while it tells the West the above.

What you describe as a lull where Israel continues to attack for no reason is based on your lack of understanding that Hamas does not simply turn into boy-scouts when it is not launching missiles.

Israel continues to assassinate its leaders even while you think there is a lull for one basic reason-these leaders during the lull are preparing more attacks whether they be suicide bombings or missile attacks.

They are not simply becoming peaceful law abiding citizens who if only not provoked would be nice and calm and benevolent. That is the b.s. you believe based on assuming what they are because you do not know who they are. I repeat you have no clue who Hamas is otherwise you or for that matter Black Dog would not summarily dismiss Hamas time and time again as victims or innocent people who only attack when provoked.

I challenge you to tell us when you actually went to the Gaza, West Bank, or anywhere in Israel as you inferred you did. Because if you did your perspective on Hamas and what they do during these lulls

would not be the same.

May I respectfully ask you to read their charter and please understand that this is not an organization that

is peaceful or will simply stop its terrorism if Israel stops.

For those of us who have engaged in direct dialogue between Palestinians and Israelis we know there are certain people and groups that would consider peace but others who never will and that is something you just keep selectively ignoring. Read their charter. Read the articles they write to each other about not stopping until all Jews (not just Israelis are killed). Before you try depict them as a peaceful organization that is merely defending its people make the effort to read its charter.

Here are but a few of the charter's words;

"Article Twenty-Eight:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.

As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Article Thirty-One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).

Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."

"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).

The Attempt to Isolate the Palestinian People:

Article Thirty-Two:

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. "

The next time you and BlackDog tell anyone how easy it is to just ignore the above-think about who it is you are talking about. Read. This is an organization that incites hate in the name of Islam and refers to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a source for its beliefs. Surely even you are aware the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was fiction drafted by the Czar of Russia's secret police as a deliberate attempt to scapegoat Jews in Russia to take re-direct peoples'n attention away from the collapsing economy.

This is an organization whose charter continually quotes the Koran to justify its hatred. The Koran was quite clear that no Muslim should attack women, children, the elderly or any religious figure or involve them in war, and yet Hamas' charter calls on women and children to fight and be used as weapons. Read it. These are people whoa re fundamentalist Muslims who want all of the Middle East returned to a Muslim theocracy.

These are not innocent freedom fighters as you try depict them as. If you had been through the Gaza or the West Bank you would also know many Palestinians do not agree with their beliefs but are powerless to stop them right now and won't be able to until neutral third parties contain them and in so doing, take away Israel's need to keep fighting them.

If and when the Muslim world finds the courage to distance itself from its fellow Muslims who use the Koran to justify hilling and hatred-then will it be able to reach out to Jews and Christians who have already done the same thing with their religions.

What are you taling about? Islam views all other faiths except Islam as infidals and calls for us to be subserviant to the Islamic faith or be destroyed. Tolerance, their idea of tolerance is "Do it our way, or else."

[Higgly]

Higgly you lost any credibility you had in this debate by simply reverting to Zionist name calling and ...

Hmmm... I thought you weren't going to debate me any more. As usual, Rue you rant and play the anti-semite card instead of addressing my point - that Israel continues to kill and in so doing is ratcheting up the Palestinian death toll. This of course does not include the number of Palestinian deaths due to high infant mortality, disease morbidity, and shortened life span.

Did you see my post describing how 40% of Israeli settlements (including over 80% of Ma'ale Adumim) have been built on land belonging to Palestinians? Aren't you the one who told us that all the land in Israel was bought from unscrupulous greedy Arabs? Credibility indeed.

[Higgly]

Why is it that these cowardly Imam's who are the same people preaching " Death to America" and "Death ot Israel" ...

Hey that's nothing. There are people on this forum advocating the use of nuclear weapons against the Arabs. And they're not even Imams!

Of course it takes a lot more courage to kill from the seat of a helicopter gunship....

What people like yourself frequently overlook is that these statements coming out of the Arab world are spoken in a particular context. For example, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's anti-Israeli rants came after Israel announced that it was thinking of bombing the Iranian nuclear facilties like it had done with Iraq some years back. I'll bet that went over big in Tehran.

Of course and then we have guys like Netenyahu advocating "regime change" in Iraq, and guess what? His buddy Wolfowitz finally talked George Bush into doing it. How many friends do you think that made in the Arab world?

[Higgly]

Here's a Feb 2005 BBC report giving the death tolls for the 2000-2005 Intifada. These numbers were compiled by B'tselem, an Israeli human rights group.

Palestinians killed by Israelis...

1. 3135 killed by security forces in the West Bank and Gaza
   
2. 54 killed by security forces inside Israel
   
3. 34 killed by Israeli citizens in the West Bank and Gaza
   

The report states that there are no figures to show what proportion are civilians as opposed to combatants.

Israelis killed by Palestinians...

• 431 civilians killed in Israel
  
• 218 civilians killed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip
  
• 218 Israeli security forces killed in West Bank and Gaza
  
• 83 Israeli security forces killed in Israel
  

Palestinians killed by Palestinians...

• 101 killed by Palestinian civilians on suspicion of collaborating
  
• 29 killed by members of the Palestinian security forces (for September 2000 to September 2004)
  
• 3 Palestinians killed by gunfire from Palestinians shooting at Israeli civilians (for September 2000 to Septemebr 2004)
  
• 2 Palestinian security forces killed by Palestinians attacking Israeli soldiers (for September 2000 to September 2004)
  

Do I believe that these numbers are 100% correct? No. I doubt it is possible to be 100% correct. But they sure are a lot different than the IDF/Mossad numbers you are proposing, Rue.