Israel Defends Itself

[cknykid]

Only people with common sense can architect the horrible tragedies at Qibya, Sabra and Shatilla.

[Black Dog]

Yes, the Palestinians are subjected to repression at the hands of Isrealis, and yes the Isrealis should dismantle the jewish settlements.

Finally some sense...

But, the Palestinians can choose to stop the repression and begin rebuilding there society. How? stop the incesent terrorist attacks. No matter how much wrong doing you percieve on behalf of the Isrealis, you cannot equate collateral casualties with the intentional slaughter of random innocent civilians.

Oh crap.

Are the continued terrorist attacks against civilian populationsm repugnant and, ultimately, counterproductive? Certainly. however, statements such as the above are the equivilant of the rapists defence that "she was asking for it".

As for the final statement, when such "collateral" damage is incurred as a byproduct of state-sponsored and directed policies of terror, dehumanization and repression, the two actions reside on the same moral plane.

A question: what motivation do the militant elements of Palestinian society have to stop the terror attacks? Would a cessation of such activities bring about an end to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Would Sharon and his warlords decide to dismantle the network of settlements and re-settle their populations elsewhere in Israel? Would they then commit themselves to aiding in the construction of a viable Palestinian state? If your answer is yes to any of these questions, on what are you basing such a position on? It's clear Israel has no intention of abandoning its expansionist settlement policies, so what is there to gain for the Palestinians by rolling over?

The palestinians choose not to join the human race not because they have no alternative to combat Isreali agression, but because their true goal is to literally drive Isreal into the sea. They don't want to negotiate, they don't want to live in peace with jews, they want to kill jews, they want them gone from the face of the planet, that is all. How many cease fires have been broken unilaterally by Palestinian suicide bombings?

Your hypothesis is utter rubbish, as it lays the burden of the actions of a (relatively) small network of extremists on the entire Palestinian population. (This is the point where someone will trot out the "but 75 per cent of Palestinains suupport suicide bombers" blah blah blah. As though hatred of the Jewish state, and not inhumane treatment, humiliation, marginalization and oppression weren't sufficient reasons.)

It's a straw man. If anything, it's Israel's government who seems to be carrying the torch of ethnic cleansing as they are aggressively pursuing policies that will marginialize and disperse the Palestinians into a network of ghettos to satisfy certain elements' vision of a greater Israel.

[righturnonred]

Blackdog,

I don't think there is anything that can be said to convince you of the truth. It is clear to any rational thinking person that the Isrealis have made concession after concession and the Palestinians respond with violence everytime. The Isrealis took the first steps in the Roadmap by withdrawing from some occupied areas. Terror groups responded with shootings and suicide bombings. The Palestinian Authority repeatedly refuses to crack down on terror. All you have to do is listen to Arafat speak in Arabic to his own people to discover his real motivations. Since the creation of Isreal, they have repeatedly been the target of unprovoked Arab attacks on all sides. It is clear to everyone except you what is going on here. Your rapist analogy is absurd. The fact that you defend the actions of these people and are some how able to equate suicide bombings with targeted strikes on militants is just disgusting. I refuse to debate someone who possesses this kind of perverted morality.

[Black Dog]

I don't think there is anything that can be said to convince you of the truth. It is clear to any rational thinking person that the Isrealis have made concession after concession and the Palestinians respond with violence everytime. The Isrealis took the first steps in the Roadmap by withdrawing from some occupied areas. Terror groups responded with shootings and suicide bombings.

Olso, as I've already discussed, was a sham. The roadmap was a joke, allowing Israel to play the white hat by dismantling a few "outposts" (a move that was violently opposed by the "peace-loving" settlers) even as they continued to aggressively expand existing settlements. Hypocricy is the word.

The Palestinian Authority repeatedly refuses to crack down on terror. All you have to do is listen to Arafat speak in Arabic to his own people to discover his real motivations. Since the creation of Isreal, they have repeatedly been the target of unprovoked Arab attacks on all sides.

I'm no fan of Arafat, but Israel's polices have made it really easy for his views to find an audience and for groups like Hamas to breed their message of hate. At the same time: what do the Palestinians have to gain by ceasing the violence?

As for the rest of your plea to the historical injustices perpetrated against Israel: cry me a river. Israel is the strongest power in the region, a nuclear power with the unlimited support of the U.S.A. They're no longer the victim here, nor is the state's survival in jeopardy. Rather the oppressed have become the opressors.

It is clear to everyone except you what is going on here. Your rapist analogy is absurd. The fact that you defend the actions of these people and are some how able to equate suicide bombings with targeted strikes on militants is just disgusting.

If you can't see the distinction between understanding the rationale behind an action and supporting said action, you probably shouldn't be debating this subject. Either you're being deliberately obtuse and using this line of illogic to gain the moral high ground, or your just plain ignorant. As for the targeted strikes (which tend to kill far more innocents than targets), these are part of the tactics that are leading Isreal down the wrong path. Even its own leaders are starting to understand that.

See?

JERUSALEM, Oct. 30 -- Israel's senior military commander told columnists for three leading newspapers this week that Israel's military tactics against the Palestinian population were too repressive and were fomenting explosive levels of "hatred and terrorism" that might become impossible to control.

In remarks that suggest a dramatic split with the approach of the current government, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, chief of staff of the Israeli armed forces, said that crackdowns, curfews and roadblocks in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites) were crippling the lives of innocent Palestinians and that the military's tactics were now threatening Israel's own interests

Duh.

I refuse to debate someone who possesses this kind of perverted morality.

Fine. Take your ball and go home. It's clear that your ideological blinders are on. I've yet to see a single concession from any of the resident Israel apologists that that state's tactics vis a vis the Occupied Territories are heavy-handed, even as NGO's, groups like the Red Cross, Amnesty International, Human Rights watch, as well as the international community, line up to condemn them (lemme guess: they';re all anti-Semites ). So, since it's clear you are unable to defend the indefensible, stay outta the kitchen.

[righturnonred]

Look, I'm not ceeding anything to you. I'm just not sure there is anything left to say so I'll leave it at this. I believe that the primary reason Isreal engages in a heavy handed occupation is to protect it's citizens from the crazies blowing themselves up in cafes and discos. I'm not saying that Isreal can do no bad, but under the circumstances, what would you have them do? It may be true that, in their pursuit of militants, the Isreali military uses excessive force that results in the harm of palestinian bistanders. In our view, this is not equivilant to someone walking onto a bus filled with children on thier way home from school strapped with a bomb, with the full knowledge that they intend to murder innocent people. An action does not constitute a war crime just because civilains die, however, a war crime had been committed if civilians have been intentionally targeted for execution. It's the difference between casualties and murder, simple as that.

I believe that in my defense of Isreal, the only western, civilized democracy in the entire region, I am on the right

side of the issue. I believe that in your defense of the Palestinians, a group of fanatics willing to martyr themsleves in the name God, you are on the wrong side of this issue.

You may reply if you like, but it is clear that we are so far apart on this issue that a compromise can never be reached.

[cknykid]

This speaks for itself

The European Union scrambled to contain the fallout from a public opinion poll that -- to Israel's fury -- labelled the Jewish state the biggest threat to world peace.

Things that make you go hummm--is this anti-semitism or just calling things how they are. Let the spin begin.

[righturnonred]

labelled the Jewish state the biggest threat to world peace.

Yes, I've heard the statement and it's ridiculus. Tell me how Isreal posses the biggest threat to world peace. Do they have plans to invade Europe, or just slam planes into skyscapers?

[cknykid]

The whole world is a melting pot and Israel is a state built on outdated crazy religious ideology. It's a so-called democrsy to serve the needs of a master race. A state that wants to serve only the chosen ones {Jews}. The world isn’t at the Stone Age but Israel is. Hard to see the difference between Nazi Germany and Israel today. Hitler wanted to create an ethnic-cleansed society for the benefit of the master race. Is Israel any different? Does Israel believe in an equality of races?, is it demanding the subordination of the weaker, trying to eliminate the weak and believe that because god promised them greater Israel they are simply entitled to acquire more land for themselves. Does Israel acquire land by force?

Hitler did it before, Israel is doing it today. If Hitler was a threat to world peace then, Israel is a threat to world peace today. Every Zionist is a Nazi hiding behind religion.

[Hugo]

Does Israel believe in an equality of races?

Ask the 1.5m Arab citizens of Israel. Ask the multitude of Arab MPs in Israel. Ask any of them if they'd care to leave Israel and go to Syria. None of them will, and it's because, ironically for you, Israel respects the rights of its Arab citizens far more than its neighbouring Arab nations.

If Hitler was a threat to world peace then, Israel is a threat to world peace today. Every Zionist is a Nazi hiding behind religion.

This is just idiotic. There are no gas chambers in Israel, and despite what is going on in Palestine, you'll find that within Israel itself there is equality and religious tolerance. In Jerusalem, churches, mosques and synagogues are next to each other. None of those three religions, nor any other, are subjected to any kind of oppression.

[Black Dog]

I believe that the primary reason Isreal engages in a heavy handed occupation is to protect it's citizens from the crazies blowing themselves up in cafes and discos. I'm not saying that Isreal can do no bad, but under the circumstances, what would you have them do?

As I've said: withdraw from the territories. Dismantle the settlements. Set about establishing a viable Palestinian state.

There will, of course, still be extremists who would wish to "drive Israel into the sea". However, restoring a measure of dignity, respect and compassion to the Palestinian people would staunch the flow of support for these terrorists and make it much easier for them to be brought to justice.

It may be true that, in their pursuit of militants, the Isreali military uses excessive force that results in the harm of palestinian bistanders. In our view, this is not equivilant to someone walking onto a bus filled with children on thier way home from school strapped with a bomb, with the full knowledge that they intend to murder innocent people. An action does not constitute a war crime just because civilains die, however, a war crime had been committed if civilians have been intentionally targeted for execution. It's the difference between casualties and murder, simple as that.

I think it's abundantly clear to even the most casual observer that Israel's heavy-handed tactics aren't working. Israelis are still dying (albeit in far smaller numbers than their Palestinian counterparts) and the cycle of vioolence and death is continuing. So why is there such a profound and deep faith that the use of force will ultimately prevail?

I believe that in my defense of Isreal, the only western, civilized democracy in the entire region, I am on the rightside of the issue. I believe that in your defense of the Palestinians, a group of fanatics willing to martyr themsleves in the name God, you are on the wrong side of this issue.

Straw man: characterizing the entire Palestinian people as "a group of fanatics willing to martyr themsleves in the name God".

Allow me:

I believe that in your defense of Israel, the only western, civilized democracy in the entire region, albeit one that has (paradoxially) institutionalized brutal methods of repression and terror in the conduct of an illegal occupation, you are on the wrong side of the issue. I believe that in my defense of the Palestinians, a group of dispossessed and humilated people living under a military occupation, an occupation that has allowed the cause of a small group of group of fanatics willing to martyr themsleves in the name of God to perform hideous acts of inhumanity to flourish, that I am defending the principles of freedom, justice and equality and am, therefore, on the right side of this issue.

None of them will, and it's because, ironically for you, Israel respects the rights of its Arab citizens far more than its neighbouring Arab nations....

There are no gas chambers in Israel, and despite what is going on in Palestine, you'll find that within Israel itself there is equality and religious tolerance. In Jerusalem, churches, mosques and synagogues are next to each other. None of those three religions, nor any other, are subjected to any kind of oppression.

So why is Israel unwilling to extend this same spirit of tolerance to the residents of the Occupied Territrories? As apppalling and evil as the campaign of terror by Palestinian extremeist groups is, how do Israel and its supporters justify the land grabs, the destruction of infrastructure, withholding of food, water and medical supplies? This kind of false justification (ie. using the sins of Israel's neighbours to excuse its own) keeps cropping up and is a clear sign that, on some level, even the most ardent defenders of Israeli policy aren't wholly at ease with the tactics the state employs. Thus the need to point fingers elsewhere.

[Hugo]

So why is Israel unwilling to extend this same spirit of tolerance to the residents of the Occupied Territrories?

Because they can't. This is in the same category as the internment of Japanese Americans in WWII: regrettable, but necessary. After all, Japanese spies were abroad, and it is known that the Japanese had plans to unleash germ warfare in the continental US (they attempted to do so a few times).

This is in the same vein. Israel cannot offer right of return for demographic reasons. Israel also cannot afford to be nicey-nicey with people in the occupied lands because of all the terrorism. Compare to Northern Ireland. In mainland Britain, you are pretty much free to go where you want. Nobody will stop you and ask questions, in fact, they are a lot more libertarian than Canada (you can walk down the street drinking beer, for instance). However, in Northern Ireland it's not the same. When driving you can expect to be stopped by the army or the RUC at various checkpoints and asked to produce your papers, explain your destination, route, and reason for travel, and even to submit to a search of your car and your person. The reason for this is all the terrorist activity in Northern Ireland.

I'm sure Britain would love to relax over there - the military occupation is costly - but they can't. Same with Israel. I'm sure they don't relish the costs of the occupation, the dead troops, the international flak they are copping, but in their view they don't have much choice.

[righturnonred]

The problem here is that supporters of the Palestinian cause deny the reasons for occupation in the first place. Bombings are not a result of the occupation. The occupation is the result of bombings. Bombings stop, occupation stops. Occupation stops, bombings continue. That is the reality we're faced with. You cannot deny the true motivations of the Palestinian leadership.

[Black Dog]

The problem here is that supporters of the Palestinian cause deny the reasons for occupation in the first place. Bombings are not a result of the occupation. The occupation is the result of bombings. Bombings stop, occupation stops. Occupation stops, bombings continue. That is the reality we're faced with. You cannot deny the true motivations of the Palestinian leadership.

Nor can you deny the true motives of Israel's leadership: the ethnic cleansing of the OT of its Palestinian population in the name of Zionist expansionism.

The occupation existed before the intifadah. The occupation started in 1967 when Israel failed to withdraw from the territories it seized in the six-day war. Instead, these lands became a platform for Israeli expansion at the expense of the population residing in the territories, which in turn led to the armed struggle known as the First Intifadah, which began in 1987.

That's 20 years without a mass violent resistance. What happened in that time to trigger a spontaneous explosion of violence and dissent? Could it be the continuing repressive policies of the state of Israel and it's incessant land grabs for immigrant settlers? Not in your world, where circular logic rules. To you, the Palestinian uprising is caused by the uprising of the Palestinians, which is vacuous, and at worst, racist, in that it implies that Palestinians are just inherently violent.

Also, you take it on pure faith that an end to the intifadah would lead to an end to the occupation, despite the fact that Israel appears to be in the OT for the long haul (otherwise: why keep building settlements in what could be characterized as enemy territory?) So tell me: what are you basing this faith in Israel's leadership on? It certainly can't be their actions.

[KrustyKidd]

The occupation existed before the intifadah. The occupation started in 1967 when Israel failed to withdraw from the territories it seized in the six-day war. Instead, these lands became a platform for Israeli expansion at the expense of the population residing in the territories, which in turn led to the armed struggle known as the First Intifadah, which began in 1987.

Very good. I like the statement of fact that there was no Intifada before this as well. I would however, like to interupt the discussion by saying that Israel did not "seize" these lands per say but rather counter attacked across and through them. Being a rather small country it justifiably saw fit (through the continued beligerence of the attacking parties) to keep the land as a buffer. It then became a "platform for Israeli expansion at the expense of the population residing in the territories."

"Bombing stops, occupation stops." Good in theory but many Israelis have built lives around their homes in Occupied Territory, they do not want to leave and it can be argued that they should be given the right to remain in peace. It should be noted that they carry considerable clout politically as well. This question sounds luducrus for both sides however Settlements are a sticking point for both sides. Do you think the Palestinians would allow them (Settlers) to remain and become Palestinian Citizens in any peace settlement? If so, how safe would they be?

[Black Dog]

"Bombing stops, occupation stops." Good in theory but many Israelis have built lives around their homes in Occupied Territory, they do not want to leave and it can be argued that they should be given the right to remain in peace. It should be noted that they carry considerable clout politically as well. This question sounds luducrus for both sides however Settlements are a sticking point for both sides. Do you think the Palestinians would allow them (Settlers) to remain and become Palestinian Citizens in any peace settlement? If so, how safe would they be?

Polls show most Israelis are in favor of dismantlling the settlements which are regarded as the biggest stumbling blocks on the path to peace. They're also considered illegal by the bulk of the international community.

The Israeli settlement system is illegal under international law. The Fourth Geneva Convention states that "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies" [article 49(6)]. The U.N. Security Council has passed 24 resolutions declaring settlements to be illegal and an obstacle to peace. In addition, the Council has called for the cessation of all settlement activities and the dismantling of the existing ones. The Council has also repeatedly declared that all measures taken by Israel to change the demographic composition, physical character, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, are null and void and have no legal validity [e.g. resolutions 446 (1979), 452 (1979) and 465 (1980)].

Under the circumstances, the settlers are squatters and should be gioven the choice- stay under Palestinian rule and take their chances or return to Israel proper.

However, it's obvious that the continued expansion of these settlements indicates Israel's leadership has no desire to end the occupation.

[Craig Read]

Occupation ?? Israel either had the land or won it in wars. And the liberal boneheads call land won in conflict and which is used as necessity, as a buffer area to protect the state from terrorists as being 'occupied'. This of course only applies to Israel. It never applies to terrorist states, communist states, fascist states or dictatorships. Only to democratic Israel.

In fact the PLA is sitting on land that is not lawfully theirs. They agreed in 1948 to abide by certain rules and laws and build up democratic institutions. Hmm let me look, well gee, nothing done yet, 55 years later. Might they not hurry up a little and start keeping their original agreements ?

Nope, let the EU and UNO send more money so Arafat and gang can kill more civilians.

Then the UNO can condemn Israel for 'occupying' territory it won in wars and needs as buffer.

Sounds rationale only to the demented liberal mind. Let the Israeli's fully wage and win their war and forever shutup the chattering left and PLA.

[cknykid]

As the government of the Jewish state forces the Palestinians in ghettos, history must be turning in its grave. Qalqiliya, a city of 45,000, has been surrounded by a concrete wall and only those who are granted permits by the Civil Administration can enter and exit the city's single gate. After placing them on small "islands," Israel is now "encouraging" them to leave their ancestral homes by undermining their infrastructure of existence. The goal, so it seems, is to annex the land uninhabited. The New Berlin wall is being used as an extremely efficient weapon of dispossession and abuse. The Palestinians' land is being stolen, basic rights to freedom of movement and livelihood are systematically violated, and the rights to education, health and even burial are contravened. The instruments of violation are not only guns, tanks and airplanes, but Caterpillar bulldozers and Fiat tractors. The wall will not solve Israel's security problems, but rather exacerbate them. By engendering extreme pressure on the Palestinian people, who are already living under dire circumstances, it fosters their sense that there are no prospects for the future, thus motivating people to join extremist groups like the Hamas and Islamic Jihad; indeed, the wall only increases the hatred towards the occupiers and promotes bloody attacks.

[righturnonred]

Nor can you deny the true motives of Israel's leadership: the ethnic cleansing of the OT of its Palestinian population in the name of Zionist expansionism.

Ethnic cleansing is a very serious accusation, back it up.

"Bombing stops, occupation stops." Good in theory but many Israelis have built lives around their homes in Occupied Territory, they do not want to leave and it can be argued that they should be given the right to remain in peace.

There is a distinction to be drawn between the encroachment of Isreali settlements (which I favor dismantling) into "Palestinian territory" which is more akin to trespassing, and the military occupation of Palestinian towns and cities. Petty boarder disputes alone do not justify suicide bombings. While ceasing of attacks on Isreali citizens may not lead to the dismantling of the settlements, its reasonable to assume that the occuption of Palestinian towns and cities, including road blocks and restriction of movement, would no longer be neccessary. The Isreali Government does not relish imposing hardships on the Palestinian people but their security demands it.

[Morgan]

Cknykid,

Here's the reason why Israel is building a wall to defend itself from terrorism - because the government which the Palestinians support, under the leadership of Arafat, does nothing to stop the terrorism against Israeli civilians, and indeed, is enabling the terrorists.

So the "blame", for any hardships that the security wall will cause the Palestinians falls squarely on their own shoulders. They allow a corrupt Egyptian transplant named Arafat to be their "Palestinian" leader knowing full well that he's taking them for a ride - they live in hovels while Arafat's wife and child live in splendour in Paris. Arafat placed No. 6 on a list in Forbes magazine of world leaders in the "kings, queens, and despots" category. Forbes wrote that Arafat has "feasted on all sorts of funds flowing into the PA, including aid money, Israeli tax transfers, and revenue from a casino and Coca-Cola bottler. Much of the money appears to have gone to pay off others" And by looking at their current living conditions, Palestinians should acknowledge the fact that "others" did not mean them.

The Internet is a powerful "equalizing" tool for accessing information nowadays whether you live in the West Bank or in Buckington Palace.Palestinians surely have read articles like the following that demonstrate that Arafat has swindled the Palestinians of anywhere from $300 Million to $500 Million to supplement his personal fortune, as well as misdirecting millions given him as aid for Palestinians from other Arabs in the region.

Arab nations halt funding after reports Arafat embezzled Aid, World Tribune, July 26/02

Arafat diverted $300M-$500M of public money to Swiss bank accounts, The Telegraph, Nov.9/03

-More than $300 million (£176 million) of Palestinian Authority funds were diverted by Yasser Arafat into a previously undisclosed Swiss bank account and the money can no longer be traced, according to a damning American television report[CBS] to be broadcast today.

-The revelation follows the disclosure by the International Monetary Fund in September that Mr Arafat had diverted more than £560 million of Palestinian Authority funds from 1995 to 2000.

- The new report coincides with a BBC documentary, also to be screened tonight, which claims the Palestinian Authority is paying members of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, an armed militia responsible for carrying out suicide attacks against Israelis, up to $50,000 (£29,000) a month.

- The BBC will quote a former Palestinian cabinet minister claiming that the money was intended to wean the gunmen away from suicide bombings. But an al-Aqsa leader interviewed by the BBC said that despite the payments, the group had not declared a formal ceasefire and Mr Arafat had not asked it to stop the suicide bombings.

- Of the money sent to accounts controlled by Mr Arafat and Mr Rashid, the IMF said $700 million had been accounted for and was in investments held by the Authority.Officials admitted that there was a gap of at least $200 million.

- the Palestinian leader hands out $20 million a month to his security forces in cash

- A senior Palestinian official refused to comment on the claims but said: "It is a shame that CBS focused on allegations of corruption rather than Israel's ongoing military occupation of Palestinian lands."

***The last comment is very telling...instead of fixing their self-perpetuated problems[Arafat], they use Israel as their whipping boy.

Another thing, Palestinians would be advised to do a Reality Check regarding the history behind the phrase "occupied land." They would be shocked, no doubt, to learn that "occupied lands" are "the fruits of war" that Israel won when it successfully defended itself against an unprovoked attack by a coalition of Arab countries. The Palestinians, unfortunately, put their money on the losing side, so they should put aside their strange notion of being "owed" anything by the victor. Instead the Palestinians should build good will with the victor to earn generosity.The adjectival modifier that feel-good, left wingers in the media, academia, and the UN carelessly omit when they speak of "occupied land" is the word "legitimate." Ergo, the phrase should properly read: "Israel's legitimate occupation of the land where...blah, blah..."

Israel, the victor, has been generous enough to make an offer to the Palestinians, on which they have been unwilling/incapable to follow through...give Israel peaceful co-existence, and then Israel would be willing to share some of its "spoils of war." The Palestinians need to "do" not just give false promises or endulge themselves in fantasy entitlements. Until the Palestinians seize their future from the grasp of Arafat and his ilk, they are choosing a bleak present and future.

As for the Biblical/historical rights of "Palestinians" to Palestine, I just found the following artcle through a quick google search. It appears that Palestinians's sense of entitlement based on Biblical history as well as modern definitions of nationhood is on shaky ground.

What does the Palestinian nation offer the world? Cynthia Ozick, WSJ June 30/03

-When, some years ago, Golda Meir contentiously remarked, "There are no Palestinians," she was historically correct and evolutionally mistaken. She was right because the people who had only recently begun to take on the name "Palestinian" were ethnically and civilizationally Arab, part of what the Arabs themselves were pleased to call, with the poetic resonance of indivisibility, "the Arab Nation." Palestine, moreover, had its origin as a term of malice, the Roman invaders' way of erasing Judea by naming it after the Philistines who warred against the Jews. And like the Palestinians today, who deny the ancient reality of the Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount, the emperor Hadrian also had the distinction of reassigning the history of Jerusalem; he dubbed it Aelia Capitolina, in honor of Jupiter.

-Yet at the same time Golda Meir was mistaken: She declined to recognize a growing sectarianism rooted not merely in the bitterness of contemporary politics but far more comprehensively in a particularized and developing cultism. Whether the Palestinians nowadays constitute a cult or a sect or a nation within the greater Arab world is scarcely to the point. They have become a nation in their own eyes--and, with the blessings of the road map, internationally as well.

-In order to deprive Jews of their patrimony, Palestinians have fabricated a sectarian narrative alien to commonplace knowledge. Although the Arab invasion of Palestine did not occur until the 17th century, Palestinian Arabs are declared to be, according to activist Salah Jabr, "the descendants of civilizations that have lived in this land since the Stone Age." With equal absurdity, other such deniers of Jewish patrimony claim a Canaanite bloodline. By replacing history with fantasy, the Palestinians have invented a society unlike any other, where hatred trumps bread. They have reared children unlike any other children, removed from ordinary norms and behaviors. And they have been assisted in these deviations by Arab rulers who for half a century have purposefully and pitilessly caged and stigmatized them as refugees, down to the fourth generation.

- The salient attribute of any culture is originality and its legacies. Genius, no matter how rare, is a human universal. Out of Israel came monotheism, out of Greece philosophy, out of Arab civilization science and poetry, out of England the Magna Carta, out of France the Enlightenment.

- What has been the genius of Palestinian originality, what has been the contribution of the evolving culture of Palestinian sectarianism? On the international scene: airplane hijackings and the murder of American diplomats in the 1970s, Olympic slaughterings and shipboard murders in the 1980s. And toward the Jews of the Holy Land, beginning in the 1920s and continuing until this morning, terror, terror, terror, terror.

-A Palestinian ethos of figment and fantasy has successfully infiltrated the West, particularly among intellectuals, who are always seduced by novelty. We live now with an anti-history wherein cause and effect are reversed, protection against attack is equated with the brutality of attack, existential issues are demoted or ignored--"cycle of violence" obfuscations all zealously embraced by the State Department and the European Union.

The Palestinians lead a pitiful existence, no one would argue that point. But it's happened by and large at the hands of fellow Arabs not Israel.

The Palestinians could have such a wonderful future if they would just throw in their hats with Israel, which has a vested interest in making sure the Palestinians succeed. Instead the Palestinians continue to make the same mistake again of backing the self-serving Arab nations, whose goal of fanning the flames of hatred for Israel depends on the Palestinians' experiencing a life of failure and destitution.

[Mr Farrius]

The issue between Palestine and Israel can not be debated without bias. One side cannot argue that Israel is right, and Palestine wrong, and vice-versa. Nobody here on this forum is Palestinian, and probably very few or none at all, Israeli, so this issue cannot be discussed without ignorance or bias. How can you argue in favor of one side or the other when you do not fully understand the rationale and feelings of the other side? What one side might view as terrorism, the other might view as patriotism.

[Morgan]

Mr. Farrius,

Kindly support your claim that I'm arguing a biased case against the Palestinians without any good knowlege.

a)I clearly said that the Palestinians live a destitute life but the potential for a wonderful future is there for them, if they make some smart choices. How is this biased AGAINST the Palestinians? If I'm hoping they will enjoy success in the future, how is that being anti-Palestinian?

My position, based on proofs you obviously did not read, is that the Palestinians are allowing themselves to be manipulated by those who make profits at their expense[Arafat et al] or those who wish to see them fail because of hatred for Israel[other Arab nations] or those, who are giving them a false bill of goods in revisionist history, because they're misguided pompous fools, full of their own genius for saving the world[media, academics, do gooders at the UN, to name a few].

I said that the Palestinians have access to information on the Internet to empower themselves with truth, not lies - I was able to do that in a few short hours with the help of Google.

Then once they are working from a firm footing in reality, it would be much easier for them to see the way and seize the opportunity offered by Israel to join forces to carve out a productive dual nation state.

Ironically enough, it's Israel's presence not Israel's destruction that represents the best hope for the Palestinians, something that the Palestinians need to recognize if they want to better themselves in the future.

c) I don't think you need to be or live with the Palestinians to find the truths, discard the illusions, figure out who benefits from your success, who benefits from your failures and then tie your fortunes to the former.

John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free

d) To say ...oh let's not judge anyone harshly and be insensitive blah, blah ...kumbayah, give peace a chance...everyone shares the blame equally for the bloodshed kumbayah... is what I think is being anti-Palestinian!

IMHO, it's pseudo "empathy," hand wringing indulgence in moral relativity which is dooming the Palestinians to a life of self-deception and woe.

How can you argue in favor of one side or the other when you do not fully understand the other side?

[cknykid]

Israel is a state created on the base of racist hateful ideology “Zionism”. Zionism is a racist ideology that pursues an exclusively (or exclusionary), politically defined state of legalized Jewish-supremacy. Modern racism is based on a {false} notion of human biology and on a skewed interpretation of the ill-considered theory of Social Darwinism. Modern racism posits that human beings can be divided into specific racial categories by virtue of their bloodlines. According to this theory, each race has its own physical and behavioral characteristics, and there is a hierarchy of races. The superior race, racists believe, have the right to rule inferior races. In this view of the world, the purity of race, that is to say, the non-mixing of higher quality races with lower quality races is a driving force behind the structure of society.

The word Zionism is used today for the foundational ideology of the Israeli nation state - the claims by which it justifies its existence. The Zionist movement historically made a claim to territory on behalf of 'the Jewish people', an exclusive geopolitical claim. It claimed that individual Jews had a right to residence in that territory, which did not apply to randomly selected non-Jews outside that territory. Ethnic cleansing preceded the establishment of the Sate of Israel in 1948. Zionism attributes an inferior status to members of non-Jewish ethno-national groups: that they lack the absolute right to residence in the Jewish homeland, and to citizenship of a Jewish nation state. The State of Israel confers no right of residence or citizenship on persons born outside Israel, unless they have specific links to Israel, to the Jewish people, or to Judaism. That excludes about 99% of the world population. Israeli immigration is essentially for Jews only, and this is the most obviously racist policy of present Zionism. Zionism was an expression of British colonialism in the Middle East (parallel to the Duch colonial ideology in SA and the French colonial ideology in Algeria) that observed the settlement of Palestine with Jewish Europeans. This also helped Europe to get rid of its Jews. After WWII Europeans supported the emigration of Jews to Palestine and the creation of a Jewish state as a solution to the Jewish refugee problem after the war. The moral meaning of this position was that Europe did not have to deal really with its responsibility over the holocaust. As in all history of modernity the non-white third world nations who paid the bill for the social constrains in Europe: the Palestinian Arabs were deported, slaughtered and segregated.

Palestine is a bitter example of how people are made to suffer because of struggle to control land without its indigenous people. It is an unfortunate state of affair where the illegal occupation of land by foreign people tends to make the life of native people miserable. A foreign occupation is a terrorist act in its own. I wish you could explain how taking away people’s freedom is not terrorism and fighting for one’s freedom is terrorism. A war begun by Israel against a "Palestinian" enemy -- an entire people is a war that is instilling total fear, insecurity, terror and death to a total population. How can there be peace when every moral measure of every action of a demented religious sect is in the light of, Is it good for the Jews and they believe in a religious ideology which tells them of "the Jewish People" as "special, chosen, holy and supreme’. The occupation of Palestine started with an ideology that denied the very existence of the Palestinian people and pursued a colonial agenda asserting divine claims to acquire the "land without the people." They are subjected to curfews, expulsions, home demolitions, legalized torture, and a wide variety of human rights violations. The negotiations with Israel have given them nothing but promises of autonomy over there impoverishment, implementing what is acceptable to the mighty and treating facts established illegally as the basis for a settlement. The relentless denial of Palestinian rights without an effective international response has left them acutely aware that self-help is there only hope. They are facing a brutal occupation with bare chests and empty arms. International law gives a people fighting an illegal occupation the right to use “all necessary means at their disposal" to end their occupation, and the occupied “are entitled to seek and receive support" (I quote here several United Nations resolutions). Armed resistance was used in the American Revolution, the Afghan resistance against Russia, the French resistance against the Nazis, and even in the Nazi concentration camps, or more famously in the Warsaw Ghetto. Palestinian resistance varies from that which is non-violent and widespread: simply continuing to live, study, pray and plant in occupied land despite all the odds, to active resistance and the use of violence. This violent resistance can be defensive (and to my mind morally acceptable), such as the resistance of the fighters of Jenin refugee camp as Israeli death machines approached, or in the form of unacceptable offensive acts, such as the bombing of Israelis celebrating a Passover meal. In all these cases, it is individuals that choose their form of resistance; the choices they make should not color the entire nation. And, as we have seen, both peaceful and violent resistance is met with profound state violence from the Israeli side. Violent resistance arises from an inhuman military occupation, one that levies punishment without fairness, denies the possibility of livelihood and diverts the prospects of a promising future. The Palestinian people have not gone to another people’s homeland to kill or dispossess. Their ambition is not to blow themselves up in order to terrify others. They are asking for what all other people have and deserve, a decent life in a homeland.

What is most troubling about the critiques of there resistance is that they seem to care little about there suffering, the withholding of what they once possessed, and the violation of there most basic rights. Their murders leave those critics cold. There peaceful, everyday struggle to have a decent life leaves no impression. There is outrage and condemnation when some of them follow the instinct of retaliation and revenge. Israeli security is deemed more important than their livelihood; Israeli children more human than theirs; Israeli pain more inflammatory than theirs. They dismiss them as terrorists, enemies of human life and civilization. And so I emphasize. To submit to injustice is incompatible with psychological health. Resistance is a right, a duty and a remedy for the oppressed.

The wall is another attempt to gain more land without its native people. This wall will place Palestinians in a ghetto. Not only will they be isolated from their source of livelihood, but the sick will not be able to reach hospitals and the children will not be able to reach schools. Even the cemeteries will be out of bounds. This wall undermines their infrastructure of existence and will help Israel annex more land in the name of security. Palestinians' land is being stolen, basic rights to freedom of movement and livelihood are systematically violated, and the rights to education, health and even burial are contravened. The instruments of violation are not only guns, tanks and airplanes, but Caterpillar bulldozers and Fiat tractors. If the wall is completed, then 50 percent of the West Bank will be annexed to Israel. In this day and age its amazing a state among nations is placing thousands of people in ghettoes, forcing them to live in subhuman conditions. This wall will not solve Israel's security problems, but rather exacerbate them. By engendering extreme pressure on the Palestinian people, who are already living under dire circumstances, it fosters their sense that there are no prospects for the future, thus motivating people to join extremist groups like the Hamas and Islamic Jihad; the wall only increases the hatred towards the occupiers and promotes bloody attacks.

Arafat and his swindling of pa funds is not the root cause of so called Palestinian terrorism. Israel, its Zionist ideology and lengthy occupation is the actual problem. Israel wants to get rid of “terrorism” then its first needs to stop being a terrorist itself.

[cknykid]

The wall is the continuation of Israeli settlement expansion, and the construction of the wall should be called settlement +. The growth of settlements and the expropriation of Palestinian land, both of which have intensified expose the true nature of Israel’s practices in the occupied territories--to consolidate occupation by creating immovable facts on the ground and therefore prejudice the final outcome of peace negotiations for a two-state solution. Israel would try to "defend" its borders by building a concrete 24-foot-high wall deep inside the territory of another country--a neighbor with which Israel purportedly wants to live in peace. The wall has been used as a pretext to confiscate more than 20,000 acres of Palestinian agricultural land. As an expansion project meant to colonize more land, the wall makes perfect sense. It surrounds and isolates Palestinian population centers and villages from their open agricultural land, while further separating Palestinians from illegal Jewish settlements also built on their land. It is part and parcel of other Israeli measures in the occupied territories which are creating two separate communities--one Jewish, the other Arab--that are separated physically and subject to two separate legal systems, economic opportunities, and restrictions down to the very roads they are allowed to drive on. In South Africa, they called this apartheid.

[Morgan]

Ckny,

What you've just posted is an example of what holds the Palestinians trapped in a life with no future - it's called "visceral hatred for Israel", not seeing Israel as a partner but rather as an enemy to be destroyed.

It's this irrational bottomless hatred for past Zionist inspired injustices, real or imagined, that keeps most Palestinians looking backward, never forward.

But hopefully, some of the Palestinians are beginning to see the light, they're starting to recognize, albeit with small baby steps, those who want to drag them down to the abyss[Jew haters]versus those who can assist them to enjoy normal productive lives and raise their families in peace[Jews].

Here's an item which gives me hope that truth and reason will eventually prevail in the minds and hearts of the Palestinian people. This man is questioning the motives, the failed promises of anti-semetic hate mongers. That's a good start:

A Letter from a Father of a Suicide Bomber, October 07/03

MEMRI translates an extraordinary, wrenching letter to the editor of the London Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat, from the father of a young Palestinian who carried out a suicide bombing in Israel.

"I can find no better words with which to begin my letter than the words of Allah, in his precious book [the Koran]: 'Act for the sake of Allah, and do not throw yourselves to destruction with your own hands.'(2) I write this letter with a languishing heart and with eyes that have not ceased weeping. We must, today more than at any other time, obey this Koranic verse, act for the sake of Allah, and refrain from carrying out acts that will throw us to destruction."

"Four months ago, I lost my eldest son when his friends tempted him, praising the path of death. They persuaded him to blow himself up in one of Israel's cities. When the pure body of my son was scattered all over, my last signs of life also dispersed, along with hope and my will to exist. Since that day, I am like [an] apparition walking the earth, not to mention that I, my wife, and my other sons and daughters have become displaced since the razing of the home in which we lived."

"But the last straw was when I was informed that the friends of my eldest son the martyr were starting to wrap themselves like snakes around my other son, not yet 17, to direct him to the same path towards which they had guided his brother, so that he would blow himself up too to avenge his brother, claiming 'he had nothing to lose.'"

"From the blood of the wounded heart of a father who has lost what is most precious to him in the world, I turn to the leaders of the Palestinian factions, and at their head the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their sheikhs, who use religious rulings and statements to urge more and more of the sons of Palestine to their deaths – knowing full well that sending young people to blow themselves up in the heart of Israel deters no enemy and liberates no land. On the contrary, [it] intensifies the aggression, and after every such operation, civilians are killed, homes are razed, and Palestinian cities and villages are reoccupied."

[cknykid]

Make a long story short--it’s not the hate for the Jews but the Jewish occupation with an agenda to annex more land without its native people that holds Palestinians back--but oh well carry on with the Jewish love thy master propaganda.