Harper's position on China

[gnam]

The truth is we don't need the Chinese for _anything_. We'd be better off cutting trade with them entirely and focussing on other countries, like Taiwan.

Sorry man,

but this is totally retarded... Not your fault mind you, you're just dating yourself a bit... harking back to the good old days when communism was the big scary monster.

Anyway, it doesn't work that way anymore. I have lived in Taiwan, S. Korea, Japan, and China, for 1 yr or more in each country over the past ten, not to mention studied their cultures, politics, and economies fairly thoroughly. The fact is that in all of those countries, except china, their economies have generally converted to consumer based economies (like ours) and China is the only one left with any real manufacturing muscle. Both Taiwan and S. Korea are both major consumers whose manufacturing industries are going down the toilet... and japan? don't be fatuous! The global economic trick for maintaining the staus quo has to do with how to ensure that the Chinese don't switch to a consumer (middle class) economy. In short, it is better for us if they remain a worker's state... dig?

You (by this I mean we) might be able to squeeze the same value out of the african continent but never the productivity--too unstable short of some imperialistic homogenizing force--and so the Chinese human rights violations are the very things that keep the chinese in line, working, and keeping our (and our U.S. buddies) consumer based economies strong.

Just try cutting trade with the Chinese... yer 400$ Armani shoes (see, for example any 'made in' label @armeni emorium, a top quality designer where most things are made in china) are gonna cost $1400 in order to maintain profit margins.. and our stock portfolio investments will dictate that the margins must be maintained. Oh, and yer $10 walmart t-shirts will cost $50 (see American apparel--a clothing chain who claims to avoid the use of sweatshop labor). Not interested in textiles? Maybe you like automotive... The Chinese are about to release a retail automobile in the N. American market with a price tag under $10,000. This will be the lowest automobile pricing since the 1980's. Quality??? Yeah that really hurt the Japanese and Korean entrance into the N. American market in the 70's... check the big losers... u.s. auto manufactureres with no business plan that peers further into the future than the next business quarter!! What a bunch of suckers... hmm buy chevy right?? riiiggghhhttt...

While you might think there is a better place on the planet to have OUR manufacturing taken care of you would be mistaken. Prominent Japanese business men have been known to say to me: "Any business the Chinese are getting into, I am getting out of!" This is because their (the Chinese) political system and labour resources (closely related to economic system and strict social controls that we call human rights) dictates that no one on the planet can compete with them in the production of cheap goods. WE HAVE A VESTED/ING ECONOMIC INTEREST in maintaining the politico-economic status quo in the 'people's republic of China' and in maintaining its political/economic practices. You depend on the Chinese political system (and others like it) for your way of life... so turn pinko or shut up---and, while we're on the subject (sort of), reign in your pitbull (Harper) since folks like you, presumably, are the ones who elected him.

Hmm... Cut off trade with the Chinese entirely?? Sounds like a great idea for collapsing the economies of the west... great idea Comrade! Where do I sign up for the revolution?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... -cough-

[normanchateau]

Hate speech is much different then advocating killing gays. If you actually advocate to kill someone, then your going to be charged under the law no matter what.

Sigh, once again you've completely missed the point. Perhaps if I say it enough times, it just might penetrate. Section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada states that it is a hate crime to promote or advocate the killing of homosexuals. That statement in Section 318 is a direct result of the passage of Bill C-250. Harper voted against Bill C-250. In case you missed it, here's the story on section 318:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/

[normanchateau]

In any event, Afghanistan needs us more than we need them but I've not heard Harper state that he cares about their severe human rights violations?

Once again you are ignorant about the issue.

You mean we need Afghanistan more than they need us?

[scribblet]

Personally I'm impressed that Harper has taken such a firm stand against China and that Canada has the courage to put economic interests aside in favour of human rights abuses. Maybe we shouldn't worry at all about human rights abuses anywhere in the world, and just get on with trade regardless.

As of last night the meeting was on.

[normanchateau]

Personally I'm impressed that Harper has taken such a firm stand against China and that Canada has the courage to put economic interests aside in favour of human rights abuses.

Yes, it's impressive that Harper has once again put economic interests aside and done something that will lose him votes among the business supporters.

What would be even more impressive would be if he took a firm stand against other human rights abusers. For example, Islamic law is supreme now in the constitutions of both Afghanistan and Iraq. For some reason Harper has a problem when human rights are abused by communist regimes but not by Islamic regimes. Why not oppose both?

[watching&waiting]

Hate speech is much different then advocating killing gays. If you actually advocate to kill someone, then your going to be charged under the law no matter what.

Sigh, once again you've completely missed the point. Perhaps if I say it enough times, it just might penetrate. Section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada states that it is a hate crime to promote or advocate the killing of homosexuals. That statement in Section 318 is a direct result of the passage of Bill C-250. Harper voted against Bill C-250. In case you missed it, here's the story on section 318:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/

Once again bringing this into the debate in a thread that has nothing to do with Gay issues period. Get over yourself and give it a rest please. The thread is about Harper's stance on China. Where is there anything mentioned about gay speech or hate crimes? You said you were heterosexual and I will take your word for that. But you do seem to be stuck on the gay stuff for what would seem like you waking hours, and I am not so sure of your dream time. Tell me what you think about Harper's position on China, and please do not start agin with he is a social conservative. This is not about that, but rather in how he views Canada's role in dealing with the Chinese Government.

[Canadian Blue]

What's wrong with the Lama?

I was being sarcastic. Because of all the people that say Canada's reputation has gone down the drain since Harper got in.

Sigh, once again you've completely missed the point. Perhaps if I say it enough times, it just might penetrate. Section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada states that it is a hate crime to promote or advocate the killing of homosexuals. That statement in Section 318 is a direct result of the passage of Bill C-250. Harper voted against Bill C-250. In case you missed it, here's the story on section 318:

I've read the story and looked at the bill. You thought the bill was about murdering homosexuals when it obviously wasn't. The bill is about hate speech.

What would be even more impressive would be if he took a firm stand against other human rights abusers. For example, Islamic law is supreme now in the constitutions of both Afghanistan and Iraq. For some reason Harper has a problem when human rights are abused by communist regimes but not by Islamic regimes. Why not oppose both?

In the case of Abdul Rahman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_%28convert%29

Canada: The Canadian government has expressed concern, especially as the Canadian Forces have recently taken command of the coalition force in Kandahar province and the government is facing pressure to ensure the mission leads to an open, democratic Afghanistan. Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper phoned Hamid Karzai and said in a written statement, "President Karzai listened to my concerns and we had a productive and informative exchange of views, he assured me that respect for human and religious rights will be fully upheld in this case."

Once again we have shown you this about 15 times on here.

As for Iraq, they are in the middle of a civil war, which human rights violations are you talking about?

I think pretty well every single western country has concerns about Iraq.

As for islamic law in Iraq, I guess you can blame Bob Rae for letting it happen, seriously!!!

In the summer of 2005, A group of Canadian experts was sent to help Iraq write its new constitution, including former Ontario premier Bob Rae. Both of these groups were based in Jordan due to security concerns.

Really, where do you even stand on international issues Norman. I've got no clue, all it seems you do on here I post about how much you hate Stephen Harper.

[kimmy]

Somehow lost in all of this partisan sniping is the fact that Harper is attempting to press the case of a Canadian citizen.

Amnesty International Canada

What would you have him do?

Why is it assumed that this is going to cost Canada business?

Why is it assumed that this will cost Harper votes in areas with large Chinese-Canadian populations?

I am troubled that Harper is being criticized for attempting to intervene on behalf of a Canadian citizen being mistreated in a foreign jail. Only in Canada. Only in Canada.

-k

[watching&waiting]

Kimmy

You are right that this has been overlooked and what also bothers me is the fact that this person was arrested in Usbekestan and then turned over to the Chinese. This has the same makings of the Mahar Arar, but with another ex-soviet government. The intracacies of all this should not be costing Harper and support and the truth to told he should be held in higher regard for taking the stance and protecting a Canadian citizen now being held ina Chinese jail, and without the ability of our embassy to have contact with him. This is just as wrong now as it was for Arar. Maybe if we stop the bickering long enough we will see that Harper is doing the job he should be doing. He is not just letting it slide by like the Liberals did.

The meeting is going ahead apparently and the Chinese have said they welcome the Human Rights talks. I hope this is true. I do know that if Harper can make China release this person and return him to Canada, that the Chinese vote here in Canada will all be for Harper no matter what elkse he does. Not that I believe this was harper's reasons for the intervention. I believe this goes directly to the family values and beliefs he has towards his fellow man. To me that is refreshing compared to the constant badgering we seem to hear all too much of.

[gnam]

Somehow lost in all of this partisan sniping is the fact that Harper is attempting to press the case of a Canadian citizen.

Amnesty International Canada

What would you have him do?

Why is it assumed that this is going to cost Canada business?

Why is it assumed that this will cost Harper votes in areas with large Chinese-Canadian populations?

I am troubled that Harper is being criticized for attempting to intervene on behalf of a Canadian citizen being mistreated in a foreign jail. Only in Canada. Only in Canada.

-k

good call!!