"Democracy" in Afghanistan

Canadian Blue · November 17, 2006

Norman's solution is to pull out before all of the facts are known to Canadian's.

Army Guy, I've showed him the same info 15 times about the Christian who was about to be killed, but wasn't due to international pressure.

Apparently its extremely easy for a country to go from extremist religious rule to pluralist democractic rule :rolleyes: .

Canadian Blue · November 17, 2006

Dude, what the heck do you think you know about Afghanistan? Obviously close to nothing except for the BS coming from the Army and the Gov't. Afghanistan has always been a freaking mess and not even Allah himself can help them. So how many young soldiers' lives do you want to see wasted for nothing?

I am a young member of the CF.... From the soldiers I've talked to they have said we are making alot of progress in Afghanistan at the moment. Perhaps you and Norman should ask yourselves why you don't see many of the troops coming back from Afghanistan opposing the war.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, the Koran takes a different position and no laws in Afghanistan can be "contrary to the laws of Islam". In other words, human rights in Afghanistan are secondary to Islam. This does not fit most Canadians' idea of a democracy.

Apparently it fits the UN's idea of democracy. Honestly why did Canadian's have such a huge change of heart in a matter of a few years?

g_bambino · November 17, 2006

Apparently it fits the UN's idea of democracy. Honestly why did Canadian's have such a huge change of heart in a matter of a few years?

I might hazard a guess: a change in government. For too many people Liberals = peacekeeping, Conservatives = war mongers.

I too find it completely bizzarre that a mission begun by a Liberal government, sanctioned by the UN, and run by NATO was understood to be good in 2003, but somehow morphed into an American mission supported by a George Bush puppet in 2006.

Canadian Blue · November 17, 2006

Lets look at another mission were the left wing was silent when it came to Canada's role in Kosovo.

Who were we supporting, the KLA, here's the background on the KLA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

Its campaign of attacking Serbian security forces precipitated a major Yugoslav military crackdown which led to the Kosovo War of 1999. Although it was seen as a successful movement of national liberation by many of Kosovo's Albanians, it was accused of killing Serb civilians and Albanians perceived as being allied to the Yugoslav government [2]. Some former members were widely regarded as being involved in postwar criminal activities [3] and the destabilisation of neighboring states

As late as 1997, the KLA had been recognized by the U.S. as a terrorist organisation supported in part by heroin trafficking.[4] United States President Bill Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, described once the KLA as, "without any questions, a terrorist group" [4]. Nevertheless, by February 1998, the KLA had been removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list [5]. According to reliable sources, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier".[5] In the same year, a British weekly newspaper, The European, stated that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area."[6] Former senior advisor to the German parliament Matthias Küntzel proved later on that his country secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[7] According to The Sunday Times of London, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia"

I love how they talk about how much they hate Harper, yet Chretien, Martin, and Harper, have all be involved in wars were they may be supporting questionable groups. Yet were is all of the criticism of Chretien and Martin?

Mimas · November 17, 2006

Lets look at another mission were the left wing was silent when it came to Canada's role in Kosovo.
Who were we supporting, the KLA, here's the background on the KLA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army

Its campaign of attacking Serbian security forces precipitated a major Yugoslav military crackdown which led to the Kosovo War of 1999. Although it was seen as a successful movement of national liberation by many of Kosovo's Albanians, it was accused of killing Serb civilians and Albanians perceived as being allied to the Yugoslav government [2]. Some former members were widely regarded as being involved in postwar criminal activities [3] and the destabilisation of neighboring states

As late as 1997, the KLA had been recognized by the U.S. as a terrorist organisation supported in part by heroin trafficking.[4] United States President Bill Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, described once the KLA as, "without any questions, a terrorist group" [4]. Nevertheless, by February 1998, the KLA had been removed from the United States State Department's terrorism list [5]. According to reliable sources, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier".[5] In the same year, a British weekly newspaper, The European, stated that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area."[6] Former senior advisor to the German parliament Matthias Küntzel proved later on that his country secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[7] According to The Sunday Times of London, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia"

I love how they talk about how much they hate Harper, yet Chretien, Martin, and Harper, have all be involved in wars were they may be supporting questionable groups. Yet were is all of the criticism of Chretien and Martin?

The criticism of Chretien and Martin was widespread but the media tried to mute it. And the right-wingers were on the forefront of the "Let's go bomb the hell out of the Serbs" movement. I remember the cartoons in The Sun showing NATO warplanes dropping bombs and a couple of Serbs throwing stones at them and reading the letters to the editor proclaiming that "We'll bomb them back to the stone age". The KLA was always a terrorist group, the militant wing of the Kosovo drug and weapons mafia. In fact, the whole thing was not about ethnic cleansing at all - it was about Serbian police and Belgrade getting in the way of Kosovo organized crime groups. Now the Serb police is gone and Kosovo has turned once again into the European paradise for drugs, illegal weapons, human trafficking, etc. But the mainstream media and especially right-wing media went out of their way with their nonsense about ethnic cleansing, the good and the evil, Canadian values, helping the poor oppressed people of Kosovo, how our military might would teach them the right way, blah, blah, blah. It didn't matter the slightest bit that everyone in neighbouring countries, who knew the situation very well, was opposed to what NATO was doing. When a Canadian general went to Greece for a NATO meeting, he saw a lot of opposition to the Kosovo action and told his Greek counterpart "It's nice that you have a public debate going on. In Canada we don't have any debate." to which the Greek general responded "We have no debate going on either. We are all 100% opposed to it. The only reason we are at the table is because we have to honour our NATO obligations." That's what NATO is about - it's the US and the Brits telling everyone else what to do whether they like it or not. It's also a good market for US weapons manufacturers to sell their product - all new members from Eastern Europe are told that they have to get rid of their Russian made equipment and buy equipment from the US. It's about giving the Americans some "international" cover. Of course, Iraq showed that NATO can be used or abused by the Americans only to a limit. And what about Canadians? Everyone I told what the KLA really is called me a wuss, a lunatic, being anti-Canadian values, that I should go sit in my socialist bunker and other reasonable comments like this. Of course the exact same happened when we went to Afghanistan and when we didn't go to Iraq. "Oh, my god...Canadian values...support our American friends...our trade with the US is dead...our economy will be destroyed...the US will punish us for betraying them...spread democracy...help the poor oppressed people..." Right-wingers never get tired of this kind of bull and instead of looking at the facts, they declare anyone opposed to their hawkish views anti-Canadian, a socialist this and that, a supporter of the terrorists. Harper lost his vocal chords screaming at the Libs for not helping our American friends in Iraq. The poor Iraqis would greet us as liberators and our American friends would allow us to sell beef to them. Gee, people, get off the clouds and stop repeating the Conservative spin like parrots. Use your brains once in a while!

Canadian Blue · November 17, 2006

Now the Serb police is gone and Kosovo has turned once again into the European paradise for drugs, illegal weapons, human trafficking, etc. But the mainstream media and especially right-wing media went out of their way with their nonsense about ethnic cleansing, the good and the evil, Canadian values, helping the poor oppressed people of Kosovo, how our military might would teach them the right way, blah, blah, blah.

I think their was quite a bit of ethnic cleansing going on. Not to mention large mass graves which were discovered by NATO.

When a Canadian general went to Greece for a NATO meeting, he saw a lot of opposition to the Kosovo action and told his Greek counterpart "It's nice that you have a public debate going on. In Canada we don't have any debate." to which the Greek general responded "We have no debate going on either. We are all 100% opposed to it. The only reason we are at the table is because we have to honour our NATO obligations."

Can you provide evidence that this was said, as well as the name of the Canadian general.

That's what NATO is about - it's the US and the Brits telling everyone else what to do whether they like it or not. It's also a good market for US weapons manufacturers to sell their product - all new members from Eastern Europe are told that they have to get rid of their Russian made equipment and buy equipment from the US.

Once again can you back this statement up.

Everyone I told what the KLA really is called me a wuss, a lunatic, being anti-Canadian values, that I should go sit in my socialist bunker and other reasonable comments like this. Of course the exact same happened when we went to Afghanistan and when we didn't go to Iraq. "Oh, my god...Canadian values...support our American friends...our trade with the US is dead...our economy will be destroyed...the US will punish us for betraying them...spread democracy...help the poor oppressed people..." Right-wingers never get tired of this kind of bull and instead of looking at the facts, they declare anyone opposed to their hawkish views anti-Canadian, a socialist this and that, a supporter of the terrorists.

I've also heard the same anti-Canadian nonsense come from left wing socialists as well. If you support the war your pro-American and anti-Canadian.

In fact, the whole thing was not about ethnic cleansing at all - it was about Serbian police and Belgrade getting in the way of Kosovo organized crime groups.

Countless numbers of War Crimes investigators will disagree with you on that point. Once again back up your statements.

I find it interesting that Kosovo is still to blame on right wing hawks, when the Labour Party, Liberal Party, and Democratic Party, all considered center left in their respective countries are somehow right wing hawks.

So since those parties are considered left in their countries, then how is it the fault of right wingers???

gerryhatrick · November 18, 2006

There seems to be a very disturbing faction of posters that have been allowed to trample on Canadian traditions, and get away with it. So this emboldens them to go even further.

You want posters dealt with if they "trample on Canadian traditions"?

I must say that this year I was more then appalled at how the people allowed these miscreants to lessen Rememberence Day ceremonies with wearing white poopies and all the nasty ati-war garbage they have been using up to that day. I never thought I would see the day when people would allow that kind of ignorant behaviour to go unchecked by the public. But these are changing times and I guess there is going to be a big split in views and splittering into groups, that are going to oppose each other.

I'm not sure what times you're referring to. When was there a time that public displays of dissent or anti-war or whatever were not allowed to "go unchecked"? Remind me of when these days were that you wish we could return to.

We are allowing here in Canada children to bring Kirpin's to school, but do not allow cross in a 3rd grade Rememberence display.

Actually the crosses were allowed in the end, along with other religious symbols.

watching&waiting · November 18, 2006

The times were the early 50's and yes the WWII was fresh in the minds and hearts of many who could rmember those times and yes the vast proportion of the people that were around had either been in the war or had family taken in the war.

The traditions that were setup after the world had sacraficed so much, were not only Canadian but many other countries. But Canada was a very big contriutor in those wars in both lives and resources. The Korean war was a little later. But even before this war we had Rememberence day going right back to WWI. Canada for a country that was very knew at the time, we had few things that were our own, but this day was for the Canadians who fought side by side with others to keep the world free. We did not knit pick that this guy or that guy was a different nationality, because we were Canadians now and forever more. That meant something back then.

If you had these protesters back then, to have the nerve to wear white poppies saying that all wars were senseless and the men died senseless deaths, well lets just say you would not dare and it you did, you would have not been seen alive again. Protesting would have been bad enough in those days but to do so on that day would be seen as too much. Maybe it has to with manners. It does seem that today many people do not have any and they think they have the right to force their positions others, even rudely.

The fact that the crosses in the end were allowed, is not the point. This again goes back to manners or lack there of. The insult was done and it can not be undone with apologies or anything. I had 16 years of my youth with cadets and reserves etc.. I never fought in any wars, but I knew what respect was and I can tell you that what people see today is not respect. Sometimes I am glad I never get to meet the people I meet here on line, others I would like to meet. It is not due to political differences but rather the ability to go about and do or say something with out trying to be rude. I will admit I have lately taken a more pushy stance on things, because it seems that here if you let things go unchecked they just grow into nastiness. I ignored many a poster because you can see they only stir the pot. Others have agendas. It seems to me that many must be paid to be here. I smile and know that since I am retired I have all the time to post and when I see what should be working aged people on here 12-14 hours a day, it does say something.

gerryhatrick · November 18, 2006

If you had these protesters back then, to have the nerve to wear white poppies saying that all wars were senseless and the men died senseless deaths, well lets just say you would not dare and it you did, you would have not been seen alive again.

Ah yes, the 50's. If only we could get them back. Oh for the days when a war protestor would have been dragged off and never been seen alive again.

:rolleyes:

What the men and women who died for in WW1 and WW2 was exactly the freedom that those who protest Afghanistan and/or Iraq are exercising. Yes, even those who wear white poppies are honoring those who died by exercising their freedoms in this free society they died protecting.

Your whistful dreams of a day when these people would not have been tolerated are misguided and misinformed. You do not honor those who died, you trample on what they fought for.

watching&waiting · November 18, 2006

GH

I can really say it is you who are wishing for things that will not happen.You see there were war protesters back since the beginning of time. the hippy times I lived it and yes it did cause a country to rethink a war that they could never win, but that was my not yours. When a country becomes a bunch of pacifists, that is when other countries just take them over. Look what happened to the Axtec and Mayans, and then the Incas thought we will welcome them in peace. That went over great right? Utopia not a place or way of life. It is in the mind. Hell we have not even settled our own lands here in Canada. There are vast stretches where wilderness will bring you to the survival of the strongest. Canada has one of the smallest armies for the population. Even poorer countries have larger armies, and sadly some even better equiped. But that will change soon.

You seem to have never anything good to say about Canada, its traditions and anyone who is not Liberal. You never seem to have answers to your posts, only short comings. Maybe you should tell us what you picture the future Canada as. I suggest it be realistic or it would be a waste of time. You see I have lived to see a lot of change, and not all for the good. I draw on the past that you ridicule to see what the future may hold. You obviously are much younger and seem to have very little life experience. Maybe if you had a more open look at things people would not ignore you so much. But maybe that is what you want

Mimas · November 18, 2006

Now the Serb police is gone and Kosovo has turned once again into the European paradise for drugs, illegal weapons, human trafficking, etc. But the mainstream media and especially right-wing media went out of their way with their nonsense about ethnic cleansing, the good and the evil, Canadian values, helping the poor oppressed people of Kosovo, how our military might would teach them the right way, blah, blah, blah.

I think their was quite a bit of ethnic cleansing going on. Not to mention large mass graves which were discovered by NATO.

Think again. The mass graves discovered by NATO are the same as the WMDs discovered in Iraq. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0902-02.htm

On top of that the fact that the ratio of Serbs to Kosovo Albanians went from 1:1.5 in the 50s to 1:10 in the 90s suggests that the Serbs were leaving in droves which is unlikely if they were oppressing the Albanians. The fact is that for years thousands of Serb families were given the option "Here is 20K DM for your house and we want you to leave by the beginning of next month." They either took the 20K and left or if they stayed, their house would burn down on the first day of the following month.

The fact is that the ethnic cleansing killed several hundred civilians (on both sides), while estimates of deaths due to contamination with depleted uranium and chemicals released by bombed chemical plants run into the thousands. Increased cancer rates are not only a problem in Serbia and Kosovo, but also all over the Balkans and in NATO soldiers who participated in the war. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/408122.stm

When a Canadian general went to Greece for a NATO meeting, he saw a lot of opposition to the Kosovo action and told his Greek counterpart "It's nice that you have a public debate going on. In Canada we don't have any debate." to which the Greek general responded "We have no debate going on either. We are all 100% opposed to it. The only reason we are at the table is because we have to honour our NATO obligations."

Can you provide evidence that this was said, as well as the name of the Canadian general.

I think it was him but I'm not sure. He made the comment few months ago on CBC radio: http://emperors-clothes.com/news/mack.htm

Read 3rd news item: http://www.hri.org/news/greek/apeen/1999/9...26_1.apeen.html

That's what NATO is about - it's the US and the Brits telling everyone else what to do whether they like it or not. It's also a good market for US weapons manufacturers to sell their product - all new members from Eastern Europe are told that they have to get rid of their Russian made equipment and buy equipment from the US.

Once again can you back this statement up.

Do you know how to use google? http://www.basicint.org/pubs/Papers/BP22.htm

In fact, the whole thing was not about ethnic cleansing at all - it was about Serbian police and Belgrade getting in the way of Kosovo organized crime groups.

Countless numbers of War Crimes investigators will disagree with you on that point. Once again back up your statements.

Dare to back this up? Care to find some of those countless investigators?

I find it interesting that Kosovo is still to blame on right wing hawks, when the Labour Party, Liberal Party, and Democratic Party, all considered center left in their respective countries are somehow right wing hawks.
So since those parties are considered left in their countries, then how is it the fault of right wingers???

These parties aren't left. The right considers them left but they are hardly even centrist.

Canadian Blue · November 18, 2006

These parties aren't left. The right considers them left but they are hardly even centrist.

Whats parties are centrist then???

Mimas · November 18, 2006

These parties aren't left. The right considers them left but they are hardly even centrist.

Whats parties are centrist then???

The Liberals. They run from the Left and govern from the Right, so on average they are Centrist . But really since action is worth more than talk, they are right of center.

Canadian Blue · November 19, 2006

Allright, so Clinton, Blair, and Chretien, were all right wing hawks who wanted nothing more then to destroy the Serbs for no good reason at all.

Canadian Blue · November 19, 2006

http://www.nesl.edu/center/balkan1.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/org/cases99.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5269758.stm

Their are a few sources on war crimes in Kosovo and the former Yugoslavia.

Higgly · November 19, 2006

I don't think I've seen a single response to what should happen in Afghanistan from the left wing. The only response is, "lets pull out". People are trying to turn this into Iraq when it clearly isn't, Norman's ignorance on the issue is a perfect example of why Canadian's seem opposed to our involvement.

Here is my response: thanks guys. Great job. I mourn your losses and I congratulate you on your successes. Welcome home.

But, isn't this really America's fight? What benefit have we seen from the blood we have spilled? They just want more and more. They want us to participate in their ridiculous missile defence plan. They want us to take their side on Kyoto. They want us to cave into their violations of NAFTA. They want us to show our passports at the border. They want more and more, and they do not keep their promises.

I think we can use our troops in more productive ways. I think we can use them to patrol our huge sea territories and to protect our sovereignty in the Artic. I think we can use them for peace keeping.

I think that if George Bush had not squandered his juice in Iraq, he could have solved his problem in Afghanistan, and every time I see a Canadian die there it just ticks me right off.

Mimas · November 19, 2006

http://www.nesl.edu/center/balkan1.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/org/cases99.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5269758.stm

Their are a few sources on war crimes in Kosovo and the former Yugoslavia.

Listen, Kosovo is NOT Bosnia. Now go back to your links and find anything about a genocide in Kosovo. The truth is that under 500 bodies have been found and that about a third of them were Serbs (Serbs were just over 10% of the population). This is over a 2 year period of fights between the KLA and Serbian police. Undoubtedly, people got killed but that's hardly a genocide. On top of that, Kosovo is a land of drugs, illegal weapons and human trafficking and in places like that lots of people get killed for obvious reasons.

As a matter of fact, NATO bombs killed about 2000 people. And many more thousands will die of cancer (primarily leukemia) due to exposure to radioactive depleted uranium. A good friend of mine who lived in a town 100 km outside of Serbia died of leukemia at 22 in 2002. Her town had radioactive levels of 10-20 times the acceptable levels. As far as I am concerned, if it wasn't for that DU from American bombs, she would most likely be alive today. So you can twist reality all you want but facts are facts and there was no genocide in Kosovo. And there were no WMDs in Iraq. Now you can read up and educate yourself on the Kosovo conflict or you can bury your head in the sand and recite Albright's speeches about the genocide that never happened. It's up to you.

Mimas · November 19, 2006

Allright, so Clinton, Blair, and Chretien, were all right wing hawks who wanted nothing more then to destroy the Serbs for no good reason at all.

There were plenty of reasons (political and economic) but genocide/ethnic cleansing was not one of them. And in each case the right pushed then to do it much harder than anyone else.

Canadian Blue · November 19, 2006

The tribunal established an office in Pristina shortly after NATO's entry into Kosovo in June 1999 to better deal with the formidable task of investigations. The first exhumation season lasted from June to October 1, 1999. Six weeks later, the newly appointed Chief Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, presented her preliminary findings to the U.N. Security Council in New York. As of November 10, 1999, she reported, the tribunal had completed work at 195 of 529 reported grave sites in Kosovo, exhuming 2,108 bodies. Del Ponte pointed out, however, that this did not represent the total number of bodies. Exhumations were ongoing, and the tribunal had also "discovered evidence of tampering."16 The next exhumation round lasted from April to October 2000. According to Del Ponte's November 2000 address to the Security Council, tribunal teams examined an additional 325 sites, exhuming 1,577 bodies and the partial remains of 258 others. Del Ponte stated that the provisional total of exhumed bodies over two years is "almost 4,000 bodies or parts of bodies." She added that an accurate figure will never be possible "because of deliberate attempts to burn the bodies or to conceal them in other ways."17

Here are the sites that are about Kosovo:

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/org/cases99.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/September2004/Kosovo

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur700092004

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso1045.htm

As well the sites provided show genocide perpetrated by the Serbian government, as well as war crimes which have been committed by the KLA.

There were plenty of reasons (political and economic) but genocide/ethnic cleansing was not one of them. And in each case the right pushed then to do it much harder than anyone else.

How so? Honestly, whenever the left seems to do something you disagree with all you say is "the right" pushed them. If you can't provide anything to back that statement up then its a fairly weak argument. As well knowing how intolerant and ignorant you are of views on the conservative side of the spectrum it doesn't surprise me. Especially taking criticism's to the extreme fringe of debate on here.

QUOTE
QUOTE

In fact, the whole thing was not about ethnic cleansing at all - it was about Serbian police and Belgrade getting in the way of Kosovo organized crime groups.

Countless numbers of War Crimes investigators will disagree with you on that point. Once again back up your statements.

Dare to back this up?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso1045.htm

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia - U.N. war crimes investigators have found Yugoslav army documents containing what they say is the strongest and most direct evidence linking the government of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo, USA TODAY has learned.
A Yugoslav army, three-ring notebook, found by investigators July 2 near an abandoned military headquarters in Kosovo, contains a direct order to a lieutenant to "cleanse" the village of Cusk near the western Kosovo city of Pec.

The order was typed on army stationery and stamped by the Supreme Defense Council of the Yugoslav Army Headquarters in Belgrade, which is headed by Milosevic.

"The aim of the military activity should be to cleanse Cusk and the surrounding villages and terrain," said the order, typed in Cyrillic letters. The date was covered by scribbled notes. The materials were examined by USA TODAY.

At least 44 ethnic Albanian men were killed and their bodies burned in Cusk on May 14, investigators said. Hundreds of other people were forced from their homes there from May 14 to May 20.

Investigators said details in the documents were used to verify their authenticity. They believe the items were left by retreating Yugoslav troops.

The black vinyl notebook contains the names of dozens of Serbs believed to be soldiers possibly involved in atrocities. Investigators refused to reveal names while the inquiry continues. The materials will be used by the U.N. war crimes tribunal investigating Milosevic and four associates.

"This is proof that Belgrade directed the operation," the investigator who found the items said. She refused to allow her name to be used for fear of reprisals. "It is the strongest single piece of evidence (against Milosevic) to date." Much of the previous evidence came from testimonies of ethnic Albanian refugees.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/517168.stm

Do you know how to use google?

Yes, but you have to learn how to back up your own statements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo#Kosovo_War

Here's a better question, what did Blair, Chretien, Clinton, and NATO, gain from intervening in Kosovo???

normanchateau · November 19, 2006

Norman's solution is to pull out before all of the facts are known to Canadian's.

If polls are any indicator, the more facts Canadians learn about this mission, the greater their opposition to the mission. In my opinion, Canadians should not be dying to prop up a corrupt government filled with drug dealers, warlords, criminals and human rights violators whose constitution states that human rights cannot "be contrary to the laws of Islam."

watching&waiting · November 19, 2006

Norman you keep repeating this about the laws of Islam. Do you know what the leaws of Islam are. Do you know there is nowear int he Koran that it says women must wear burquas. Since you keep using this phrase, it then is upon you to study just what the laws of Islam are. I am not sure of all laws that claim to be Islam are even in the Koran, but I remember an Iman onTv a while back that described the laws that the Koran laid out and his interpetation was not so bad similar to what we would have seen late 18-19 century Europe etc. So I think you would be better saying extremist Islam, because I think from what little I have seen, Islam itself is not that far behind our own times.

Mimas · November 19, 2006

The tribunal established an office in Pristina shortly after NATO's entry into Kosovo in June 1999 to better deal with the formidable task of investigations. The first exhumation season lasted from June to October 1, 1999. Six weeks later, the newly appointed Chief Prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, presented her preliminary findings to the U.N. Security Council in New York. As of November 10, 1999, she reported, the tribunal had completed work at 195 of 529 reported grave sites in Kosovo, exhuming 2,108 bodies. Del Ponte pointed out, however, that this did not represent the total number of bodies. Exhumations were ongoing, and the tribunal had also "discovered evidence of tampering."16 The next exhumation round lasted from April to October 2000. According to Del Ponte's November 2000 address to the Security Council, tribunal teams examined an additional 325 sites, exhuming 1,577 bodies and the partial remains of 258 others. Del Ponte stated that the provisional total of exhumed bodies over two years is "almost 4,000 bodies or parts of bodies." She added that an accurate figure will never be possible "because of deliberate attempts to burn the bodies or to conceal them in other ways."17

As well the sites provided show genocide perpetrated by the Serbian government, as well as war crimes which have been committed by the KLA.

First this is an accusation by a procecutor that has not been proven to date. Undobtedly, people were killed on BOTH sides and most of the killiong occured after NATO attacked. Because civilians were caught between the Serbian forces, the KLA and NATO bombs. In fact, about 1000 people were killed in Kosovo by NATO bombs. The civilian death toll due to NATO in Kosovo and Serbia is estimated at around 5,000 by the Serbian government. NATO admits killing about 1,500 civilians. The final result was that instead of stopping ethnic cleansing, Kosovo was cleansed almost entirely of Serbs and all other ethnic minorities after the war.

Second, even if it were the case that 4,000 were killed (that's over 3 years of "war" between the KLA and serbian forces) and that was prior to NATO getting involved, this is hardly a genocide. The estimates we were bombarded with prior to the war were 100,000 killed, half a million missing. To put these 4,000 claimed victums in perspective, about 2,000 homicides occured in New York city over the same period.

In fact, it took years for the Canadian government to recognize that the slaughter of 800,000 in Rwanda was a genocide. Canada officially recognized the slaughter of 1 million Armenians as a "tragedy" but not a "genocide". Several hundred thousand people have been killed in Durfur in the last 3 years, but we don't call that a genocide and we don't move a finger. If we went to war whenever a couple of thousand people were killed, then we would be fighting on at least 50 fronts over the world right now.

There were plenty of reasons (political and economic) but genocide/ethnic cleansing was not one of them. And in each case the right pushed then to do it much harder than anyone else.

How so? Honestly, whenever the left seems to do something you disagree with all you say is "the right" pushed them. If you can't provide anything to back that statement up then its a fairly weak argument. As well knowing how intolerant and ignorant you are of views on the conservative side of the spectrum it doesn't surprise me. Especially taking criticism's to the extreme fringe of debate on here.

Here's a better question, what did Blair, Chretien, Clinton, and NATO, gain from intervening in Kosovo???

Well, war is good business. The military industry needs a war at least once every 10 years to survive. NATO was an organization of Western states to DEFEND them from the Soviets and company. When communism fell, NATO was dead. The NATO establishment didn't want to go, so they had to reinvent an enemy and a purpose for the organization. Both the military industry and the NATO establishment are powerful lobbies that governments would have a hell of a time dealing with when they are unsatisfied. Besides, it was a good time to take the news reporters away from the Lewinsky scandal and unpleasant issues at home. An added benefit was pitting Europe against Russia, which works out in favour of the US. We like the US and Tony is the thorn in the behind of Europe, so it's a good deal.

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In fact, the whole thing was not about ethnic cleansing at all - it was about Serbian police and Belgrade getting in the way of Kosovo organized crime groups.

Countless numbers of War Crimes investigators will disagree with you on that point. Once again back up your statements.

Dare to back this up?

We are not talking about the same thing here. The KLA was not there because the Serbs were oppressing the Albanians. In fact the huge drop of Serbs and other ethnic minorities over the previous few decades is evidence that the Albanians were slowly pushing the other guys out. The KLA was formed to push the Serbian police out of the province because they were getting in the way of the drug and illegal weapons trade that was going on in Kosovo and speed up the departure of non-Albanians from the province. The KLA has now moved onto border regions of Macedonia and Greece. Of course we don't hear about that because any mention of Kosovo and the NATO mission there is an embarrassment and we want people to still believe what they were told in 1999. We can't admit that we supported a terrorist group and that we called them liberators. Just like Bush never talks about WMDs in Iraq because bringing up the topic will make more people aware that there were none (apparently half of Americans still believe that there were WMDs in Iraq).

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/kosovo/koso1045.htm
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia - U.N. war crimes investigators have found Yugoslav army documents containing what they say is the strongest and most direct evidence linking the government of Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo, USA TODAY has learned.

A Yugoslav army, three-ring notebook, found by investigators July 2 near an abandoned military headquarters in Kosovo, contains a direct order to a lieutenant to "cleanse" the village of Cusk near the western Kosovo city of Pec.

The order was typed on army stationery and stamped by the Supreme Defense Council of the Yugoslav Army Headquarters in Belgrade, which is headed by Milosevic.

"The aim of the military activity should be to cleanse Cusk and the surrounding villages and terrain," said the order, typed in Cyrillic letters. The date was covered by scribbled notes. The materials were examined by USA TODAY.

At least 44 ethnic Albanian men were killed and their bodies burned in Cusk on May 14, investigators said. Hundreds of other people were forced from their homes there from May 14 to May 20.

Investigators said details in the documents were used to verify their authenticity. They believe the items were left by retreating Yugoslav troops.

The black vinyl notebook contains the names of dozens of Serbs believed to be soldiers possibly involved in atrocities. Investigators refused to reveal names while the inquiry continues. The materials will be used by the U.N. war crimes tribunal investigating Milosevic and four associates.

"This is proof that Belgrade directed the operation," the investigator who found the items said. She refused to allow her name to be used for fear of reprisals. "

All this shows that the Serbian military kept records and the KLA did not. 44 doesn't sound like genocide to me. And the date was "covered by scribbled notes" because it was after the NATO attack. Because the Serb military was mad as hell when NATO attacked (NATO claims killing 5,000 Serb soldiers and not surprisingly the Serb soldiers blamed this on the Albanians - besides they couldn't get to the NATO forces and take their anger out on them) and any atrocities by the Serbs happened after the attack, not before. We were told that 100,000 civilians were killed before we attacked.

Of course Belgrade directed the operation. When a terrorist group attacks the police of a country and kills dozens of its officers, the government gets involved. Did Ottawa not direct the operation when tanks were rolling down the streets of Montreal in 76? Is Tel Aviv not involved in directing Israelli opperations against Hezbolah? Of course it is.

Canadian Blue · November 19, 2006

Actually my original point on Kosovo was the hypocrisy of many Liberals.

Still having trouble with that quote button?

normanchateau · November 19, 2006

Actually my original point on Kosovo was the hypocrisy of many Liberals.

Yes, far better to be governed by those "sincere" Conservatives. Not a hypocrite in the bunch...

Mimas · November 19, 2006

Actually my original point on Kosovo was the hypocrisy of many Liberals.
Still having trouble with that quote button?

Yep. That quote button sucks.

My point on Kosovo is the hypocrisy of many Conservatives who were screaming "blood" louder than the Liberals and the fact that 7 years after the conflict, neither of the two want to admit the facts and say that there was no genocide and that we were lied to to support a terrorist organization and a mission that killed thousands of civilians, displaced almost 1 million people temporarily) and had over 200,000 Serbs and other ethnic groups "cleansed" from their homes permanently. And a mission that dumped thousands of tonnes of depleted uranium, bombed chemical factories and caused an environmental disaster in the region that is yet to kill thousands of people.