Crosses Yanked from Nov. 11 Gr. 3 Display

[scribblet]

This is utter nonsense, political correctness gone nuts. Does this mean In Flanders Fields cannot be taught anymore or will they just cut the part 'between the crosses row on row' so the kids don't have to see it.

Removing Remembrance crosses in the name of politically correct inclusiveness demeans thr sacrifice and beliefs of the soldiers, this is nothing but religious prejudice.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.asp...53-9b3ee1265c83

Crosses yanked from display

Grade 3's Nov. 11 exhibit should be 'more inclusive': principal

A school display on the poem In Flanders Fields included poppies and crosses.

Parents at a west-end Toronto school balked this week after crosses were removed from a Remembrance Day display in the name of religious equality.

When teacher Tom Ramanauskas' Grade 3 students at Swansea Public School decorated a bulletin board outside their classroom for Remembrance Day, they included the poppies and crosses symbolized in John McCrae's In Flanders Fields, a poem they had read in class.

But on Thursday, the school's principal had a conversation with Mr. Ramanauskas that prompted him to drop the crosses

[cybercoma]

Utterly ridiculous...is there really any debate to be had here?

[blueblood]

what a joke, what the hell is this Russia? isn't the teacher's/kids right to expression not important. I think old Grapes needs to weigh in on this and straighten us out. This is like the Holiday Tree, this is why more and more I believe we need a PM like Danny Williams who isn't worried about pissing someone off to get the job done. That principal should be canned if not grilled at a school meeting.

[MightyAC]

I am in favour of keeping prayer out of school, hell I'm in favour of dropping the word god from our national anthem...but this is ridiculous. Ms. Ironbox, er I mean Bines needs to give her head a shake.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Parents at a west-end Toronto school balked this week after crosses were removed from a Remembrance Day display in the name of religious equality.

How is Nov 11 identified with religion? People of all religions - Christians, Moslems, Sikhs, Hindus, fought in the war. Nov 11 is intended to honor them all.

[gerryhatrick]

Parents at a west-end Toronto school balked this week after crosses were removed from a Remembrance Day display in the name of religious equality.

How is Nov 11 identified with religion? People of all religions - Christians, Moslems, Sikhs, Hindus, fought in the war. Nov 11 is intended to honor them all.

The cross is identified with a particular religion.

[cybercoma]

That Principal should go one step further and have them remove the crosses from Flanders' Field.

http://www.2ndbattalion94thartillery.com/Chas/flanders.jpg

[gerryhatrick]

This is utter nonsense, political correctness gone nuts.

This is not political correctness. This is most definitely political INcorrectness.

The reason I say that is because it is not a popular stance.

[blueblood]

Parents at a west-end Toronto school balked this week after crosses were removed from a Remembrance Day display in the name of religious equality.

How is Nov 11 identified with religion? People of all religions - Christians, Moslems, Sikhs, Hindus, fought in the war. Nov 11 is intended to honor them all.

The cross is identified with a particular religion.

So? We're not allowed to express our traditions, crosses are a VERY important part of Remembrance day. Good grief it's not like they're pushing religion on anyone, how about some tolerance on the principal's part.

[cybercoma]

Religion should be abolished to create inclusion.

Actually, any differences between people and cultures should be eliminated.

We'll all be exactly the same shade of grey.

Fahrenheit 451...rearing its ugly head.

[Canadian Blue]

Wow, somebody knows very little about military tradition. The crosses represent the dead, and I believe their is a reference to crosses in the poem by John McRae. Perhaps we should change the poem as well so as to not offend anybodies religious views. Besides I don't see whats so offensive about a cross, I don't get offended when I see the Star of David, or the Crescent. But then again thats just me.

This is not political correctness. This is most definitely political INcorrectness.

The reason I say that is because it is not a popular stance.

Then I'd say you have no idea what political correctness is.

[cybercoma]

Let's not mistake "creating inclusion" for "avoid offending."

Either way, it's stupid...but in no way were they removed to avoid offending people....they just didn't want to make kids of other religions feel left out.

[Melanie_]

I'm against prayer in schools, and any other implication of preference for one religion over another in a public school setting. However, the poem they studied begins

In Flanders Fields the poppies grow

Between the crosses, row on row

Studying the poem, and understanding the imagery and meaning conveyed, requires picturing the crosses. For third graders, representing them visually, with the poppies, is a reasonable expectation. We can study art and poetry that has a religious theme, as long as the true purpose in studying them is not obscured by trying to promote one religion over the other. (Does anyone else remember a discussion about religious art in schools about a year ago, in the Moral and Religious Issues thread? I can't find it now to create a link.)

[Canadian Blue]

I actually think children should learn about the different religions at a younger age. The best way to fight intolerance is through knowledge, the more people know about different religions and cultures the better society we'll have. As for the crosses, they should have been allowed, in a society such as ours we should not re-write history so as not to offend anybody. As well why would people be offended by other religious symbols, as we are supposed to be a tolerant society.

If the school was trying to evangilize kids, and make them prayer to a certain god then I'd have a problem. However in this case it was just political correctness taken to the extreme.

[gerryhatrick]

So? We're not allowed to express our traditions, crosses are a VERY important part of Remembrance day. Good grief it's not like they're pushing religion on anyone, how about some tolerance on the principal's part.

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

[blueblood]

So? We're not allowed to express our traditions, crosses are a VERY important part of Remembrance day. Good grief it's not like they're pushing religion on anyone, how about some tolerance on the principal's part.

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

A cross is a christian symbol, but in this case it can also be interpreted as a symbol of the fallen soldiers. Those kids putting up those pictures with the crosses aren't promoting religion at all. The tradition i'm saying is Rememberance Day, I think that applies to all Canadians.

If you think that this is instance is promoting religion and that it shouldn't be promoted in our schools then it would be alright for you to go up to the kid who brought the kirpan to school and say get that thing out of here, that's promoting religion.

[Melanie_]

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

I agree with you, Gerry, but I don't see this issue as being about promoting one religion over another, but rather as examining the context and imagery of the First World War. Flanders Fields did have crosses to mark the graves of the soldiers, but the message of the poem is not about religion, it is about honouring the sacrifices of the men and women who died. Its too powerful and meaningful a poem to put on the shelf simply because of the mention of crosses.

[gerryhatrick]

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

I agree with you, Gerry, but I don't see this issue as being about promoting one religion over another, but rather as examining the context and imagery of the First World War. Flanders Fields did have crosses to mark the graves of the soldiers, but the message of the poem is not about religion, it is about honouring the sacrifices of the men and women who died. Its too powerful and meaningful a poem to put on the shelf simply because of the mention of crosses.

You have a good point Melanie. It is part of the symbolism of the war.

It's a difficult line to walk. I wouldn't object personally, but I understand and respect the decision.

[jbg]

So? We're not allowed to express our traditions, crosses are a VERY important part of Remembrance day. Good grief it's not like they're pushing religion on anyone, how about some tolerance on the principal's part.

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

Being Part I of the Constitution Act, 1982

[Enacted by the Canada Act 1982 [u.K.] c.11; proclaimed in force April 17, 1982. Amended by the Constitution Amendment Proclamation, 1983, SI/84-102, effective June 21, 1984. Amended by the Constitution Amendment, 1993 [New Brunswick], SI/93-54, Can. Gaz. Part II, April 7, 1993, effective March 12, 1993.]

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

[FTA Lawyer]

This is so stupid it cannot even be comprehended. This is nothing like the "Holiday Tree"...this is blatantly ignoring historical fact in an effort to tell a historical story in a way that makes others feel more included?!?!?!

Guess what, crosses "marked their place" and nothing will change that fact. The poem is historically accurate, and how else do you display what you learned when reading "In Flander's Fields" (one of the most famous Canadian literary works ever) than to depict poppies, rows of crosses, perhaps a lark, some guns below, and a torch being thrown.

Seriously, when we start modifying not only our study of history, but the actual history itself to appease minorities and / or special interest groups we really have hit a point where Canada is now a nation beholden to Seinfeld...in our ridiculous effort to be about everything for everyone, we have managed to become about nothing.

FTA

[Canadian Blue]

This is so stupid it cannot even be comprehended. This is nothing like the "Holiday Tree"...this is blatantly ignoring historical fact in an effort to tell a historical story in a way that makes others feel more included?!?!?!

Guess what, crosses "marked their place" and nothing will change that fact. The poem is historically accurate, and how else do you display what you learned when reading "In Flander's Fields" (one of the most famous Canadian literary works ever) than to depict poppies, rows of crosses, perhaps a lark, some guns below, and a torch being thrown.

Seriously, when we start modifying not only our study of history, but the actual history itself to appease minorities and / or special interest groups we really have hit a point where Canada is now a nation beholden to Seinfeld...in our ridiculous effort to be about everything for everyone, we have managed to become about nothing.

FTA

Bang on FTA!!!

I disagree with rewriting any history in order to appease minorities or special interest groups. I think if anything such action create more tension's between people in this country.

[gerryhatrick]

So? We're not allowed to express our traditions, crosses are a VERY important part of Remembrance day. Good grief it's not like they're pushing religion on anyone, how about some tolerance on the principal's part.

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

Being Part I of the Constitution Act, 1982

[Enacted by the Canada Act 1982 [u.K.] c.11; proclaimed in force April 17, 1982. Amended by the Constitution Amendment Proclamation, 1983, SI/84-102, effective June 21, 1984. Amended by the Constitution Amendment, 1993 [New Brunswick], SI/93-54, Can. Gaz. Part II, April 7, 1993, effective March 12, 1993.]

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

I still stand by what I said, a cross is not our tradition.

A line referencing "God" doesn't change that.

[cybercoma]

A cross is a christian symbol, but in this case it can also be interpreted as a symbol of the fallen soldiers. Those kids putting up those pictures with the crosses aren't promoting religion at all. The tradition i'm saying is Rememberance Day, I think that applies to all Canadians.

If you think that this is instance is promoting religion and that it shouldn't be promoted in our schools then it would be alright for you to go up to the kid who brought the kirpan to school and say get that thing out of here, that's promoting religion.

Furthermore, if anything is acceptable to create inclusion... all students in all schools should be required to wear a strict uniform and any religious symbols such as turbans, kirpans, yamulkas, and rosaries should be banned.

Also, no one should be able to bring pork into the classroom, so as not to ostracize those who cannot be around it.

[cybercoma]

So? We're not allowed to express our traditions, crosses are a VERY important part of Remembrance day. Good grief it's not like they're pushing religion on anyone, how about some tolerance on the principal's part.

A cross is not "our tradition" though blueblood, it's a Christian symbol. The term "our" may be true for you, but it's not true for many others.

Canadian schools should not promote any religion over another.

Being Part I of the Constitution Act, 1982

[Enacted by the Canada Act 1982 [u.K.] c.11; proclaimed in force April 17, 1982. Amended by the Constitution Amendment Proclamation, 1983, SI/84-102, effective June 21, 1984. Amended by the Constitution Amendment, 1993 [New Brunswick], SI/93-54, Can. Gaz. Part II, April 7, 1993, effective March 12, 1993.]

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

I still stand by what I said, a cross is not our tradition.

A line referencing "God" doesn't change that.

Gerry's right. "The supremacy of God," only serves to recognize a higher authority (albeit fictitious) and does not specify which religious God it is.

[Guest Warwick Green]

A cross is a christian symbol, but in this case it can also be interpreted as a symbol of the fallen soldiers. Those kids putting up those pictures with the crosses aren't promoting religion at all. The tradition i'm saying is Rememberance Day, I think that applies to all Canadians.

If you think that this is instance is promoting religion and that it shouldn't be promoted in our schools then it would be alright for you to go up to the kid who brought the kirpan to school and say get that thing out of here, that's promoting religion.

Right. How do you show the graves of the dead soldiers in Europe if you cannot show crosses? Are we going to ban "In Flanders Fields" because of its reference to crosses? Are we not going allow any literature in the classroom that has a reference to the Christian god? Are we that committed to censorship?

Rather than ban things, why don't we become more inclusive - like teaching kids about other religions? I went to school with lots of Jewish kids. On occasion a teacher would tell us some things about Judaism - of course this was long before you screamed bloody murder every time someone said something that offended you.