Canadian Media still whining about Kyoto

[geoffrey]

That's what the international power grid is for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:North_a...atingplants.gif

You can see there is not many available plants in the U.S. to supply Alberta when it needs it. And Alberta has needed it several times in the last few years.

Yes they have. The new 500kV line will expand delivery from the South to the North and vice-versa depending on demand. The opposition parties want to hold it up.

www.altalink.ca... that's the company building it.

[jdobbin]

Yes they have. The new 500kV line will expand delivery from the South to the North and vice-versa depending on demand. The opposition parties want to hold it up.

www.altalink.ca... that's the company building it.

It is still to be built. There are not enough high transmission lines to help supply a region in need. It is why I suggested an east-west grid kills a few birds with one stone.

[August1991]

This thread is all over the map (and I don't say that in a polite way). At least Gerry started his own thread on the topic.

And B. Max, would you please start a thread on "Global Warming: Junk Science" where you can debate to your heart's content whether human-induced CO2 emissions have any effect on the earth's temperature? Your posts are interesting but amount to trolling in this thread.

This is why a national power grid goes a long way to securing power needs for every province through drought, shut downs or when they have an excess to share during heat waves or cold waves.

A national power grid is one of the more insane ideas I have seen here.

You make it sound as if Churchill Falls electricity is used to charge the atmosphere or something. Transmitting electricity over long distances is wasteful and expensive, and it's a long drive from Winnipeg to Toronto.

BTW, Quebec's hydro system isn't on the same phase as the rest of North America. This isn't because Quebec wants to be different but rather that the rest of the continent doesn't want Quebec's hydro riskiness added.

[incidentally, we discussed the idea here.]

Dobbin, your idea of heat wells in new housing developments makes more sense. But the only way to achieve that in a sophisticated economy such as ours with millions of people making millions of decisions everyday is to embed the cost of CO2 emissions into market prices.

[B. Max]

This thread is all over the map (and I don't say that in a polite way). At least Gerry started his own thread on the topic.

And B. Max, would you please start a thread on "Global Warming: Junk Science" where you can debate to your heart's content whether human-induced CO2 emissions have any effect on the earth's temperature? Your posts are interesting but amount to trolling in this thread.

I don't see it that way. If you don't like the thread go to a different one.

[jdobbin]

A national power grid is one of the more insane ideas I have seen here.

You make it sound as if Churchill Falls electricity is used to charge the atmosphere or something. Transmitting electricity over long distances is wasteful and expensive, and it's a long drive from Winnipeg to Toronto.

BTW, Quebec's hydro system isn't on the same phase as the rest of North America. This isn't because Quebec wants to be different but rather that the rest of the continent doesn't want Quebec's hydro riskiness added.

[incidentally, we discussed the idea here.]

Dobbin, your idea of heat wells in new housing developments makes more sense. But the only way to achieve that in a sophisticated economy such as ours with millions of people making millions of decisions everyday is to embed the cost of CO2 emissions into market prices.

But it is not a long way from Winnipeg to Thunder Bay. The government of David Peterson came close to signing a deal for hydro from Manitoba. It would have included a high power transmission line to Ontario. It is likely the power would have gone a long way to shortages now experienced in Ontario.

Manitoba just signed a deal with Minnesota and Wisconsin instead this week. The distance is actually farther than Thunder Bay.

Quebec and Ontario have been negotiating for a power deal. That was in the news a few weeks ago. The Liberal government indicated as much when they said there would be additional nuclear power coming online.

The geo-thermal power will take a concerted effort of three levels of government, housing developers and hydro energy companies. It does offer significant savings in our lifetime though and does remarkable amount of work in cutting emissions.

[Canuck E Stan]

The geo-thermal power will take a concerted effort of three levels of government, housing developers and hydro energy companies. It does offer significant savings in our lifetime though and does remarkable amount of work in cutting emissions.

Where is this heating method being used to huge housing developments at present? Anywhere in Canada? World?

[geoffrey]

The geo-thermal power will take a concerted effort of three levels of government, housing developers and hydro energy companies. It does offer significant savings in our lifetime though and does remarkable amount of work in cutting emissions.

Where is this heating method being used to huge housing developments at present? Anywhere in Canada? World?

It actually sounds like a fantastic idea. There must be a catch. Does it work everywhere?

[jdobbin]

Where is this heating method being used to huge housing developments at present? Anywhere in Canada? World?

Manitoba Hydro and Waverley West housing development in Winnipeg are trying to be the first major development in Canada. It would be roughly a sub-division for 40,000 people. Talks are well under way.

Other than that, there are more and more conversions happening in Winnipeg and elsewhere in Canada. That's expensive though although it is kind of liberating cutting off the gas supply. It saves money each year and eventually pays off.

[geoffrey]

Heat can produce steam, which can turn turbines... why can't we generate electricity with this method? Or can we?

EDIT: I take that back, apparently you can.

[jdobbin]

Heat can produce steam, which can turn turbines... why can't we generate electricity with this method? Or can we?

EDIT: I take that back, apparently you can.

Manitoba has two thermal plants.

[B. Max]

Manitoba Hydro and Waverley West housing development in Winnipeg are trying to be the first major development in Canada. It would be roughly a sub-division for 40,000 people. Talks are well under way.

Sounds like a good way to kill off the furnace industry.

[jdobbin]

Sounds like a good way to kill off the furnace industry.

Not for a good long time.

It took decades to get people to move from coal to heating oil from boilers to forced air heat.

Geo-thermal is only possibly now because fossil fuels are getting up there in price. And that's not likely to change. It just makes it more economical to start a new development off this way rather than lay gas pipes.

[B. Max]

Geo-thermal is only possibly now because fossil fuels are getting up there in price. And that's not likely to change. It just makes it more economical to start a new development off this way rather than lay gas pipes.

Yeah and kill off the the pipe line industry at the same time.

[jdobbin]

Yeah and kill off the the pipe line industry at the same time.

And that wouldn't happen for a very long time either. This is about new sub-divisions initially. The energy companies would continue to be making a lot of profit of pipelines from the north and across the west and down south.

There isn't going to be a mass conversion unless gas becomes so uneconomical.

This is about building for the future.

At one time everyone had boilers and fuel oil. It took a very long time to convert and put pipelines to every house. Some places out east still don't have a pipeline. In their case, geo-thermal looks good rather than waiting for the pipes.

[B. Max]

Yeah and kill off the the pipe line industry at the same time.

And that wouldn't happen for a very long time either. This is about new sub-divisions initially. The energy companies would continue to be making a lot of profit of pipelines from the north and across the west and down south.

There isn't going to be a mass conversion unless gas becomes so uneconomical.

This is about building for the future.

At one time everyone had boilers and fuel oil. It took a very long time to convert and put pipelines to every house. Some places out east still don't have a pipeline. In their case, geo-thermal looks good rather than waiting for the pipes.

Actually I was thinking about the people that put the pipe lines in. Which got me thinking. So far theoretically we've eliminated the furnace compamy the pipe line guys, the people who make the pipe, the people who haul it, the people who drill the wells, the people who build the plants, the people who operate them, and I guess a host of office people who go along with all the various components and likely others I haven't thought about. Who will be left to buy the houses. In fact what we have there assuming somebody bought the houses is some sort of subsistence living.

[geoffrey]

Tough shit B.Max. If they can't sustain their products at competive prices, the market will make the decision towards geo-thermal.

As such an anti-Kyoto, anti-regulatory type, you must be quite the free marketist. Let the market be free and if geo-thermal is a financially wise choice, then people will make it and we'll all be better off.

Except for the furnance guys... but then again, do you feel for the horse buggy drivers too?

[jdobbin]

Actually I was thinking about the people that put the pipe lines in. Which got me thinking. So far theoretically we've eliminated the furnace compamy the pipe line guys, the people who make the pipe, the people who haul it, the people who drill the wells, the people who build the plants, the people who operate them, and I guess a host of office people who go along with all the various components and likely others I haven't thought about. Who will be left to buy the houses. In fact what we have there assuming somebody bought the houses is some sort of subsistence living.

We replaced the stable hands with car mechanics too. Would you like to devolve that much?

The furnace people work in the new industry of thermal heat plants, the drillers are needed for every home and industry that needs to drill for thermal heat. It is a huge industry. And yet you would like to go back to an industry that has a finite lifetime.

[shoggoth]

a good example can be found in Table 1 here http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html which is attributed to the U.S. Department of Energy, but the table has been modified to contain the additional column "Man-made additions" which contains flat out wrong data. It gives the misleading impression that the that DoE are saying only 15% of the recent co2 rise is anthropogenic, when in fact that figure (along with others on that page) has actually been plucked out of who knows where

That you will have to ask junck science. What false data you are talking about I don't know. Water vapor is the major green house gas. Why should it not be included.

The false data is the figure of 15% of the contribution of man to the recent co2 rise. The "man-made additions" column has been added to the table without mentioning that the figure does not come from the DoE.

No matter, the man made global warming theory is, and has been based on compurter models, not on actual historical temp. records.

It's based on both. The knowledge of climate that the models are based upon is partly derived from historical temperature records.

Compurter models that don't match the know records when they are made to pedict future temperature increases with c02 as the driver for those increases.

Here is a popular contrarian website:

http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=4

One of their arguments is: Computer models can be made to "verify" anything by changing some of the 5 million input parameters or any of a multitude of negative and positive feedbacks in the program used.. They do not "prove" anything

So which is it? Can computer models be made to verify anything? Or are they unable to match the known temperature record? It can't be both, so why are both being claimed?

[jdobbin]

As I mentioned earlier in this post, Ontario and Quebec were negotiating a key component in an east-west power grid.

Here is the conclusion.

Great news for both provinces. Good for all of Canada.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/061110/...ario_quebec_col

The article goes on to say that Manitoba and Newfoundland are also future possible deals.