Bob Rae vs. Mike Harris

[Higgly]

I don't believe in a legislated workweek anywhere. Work as much as you can, if you want to work less, and your employer is ok with that, sure. But this ridiculous 35 hour work week concept? Sounds like people just want to be lazy.

Well of course someone needs to draw a line beyond which extra compensation must be paid and workers have a right to refuse. Other than that, you end up with Dickensian England, carpet-wallah India, and conditions under which only Geoffrey would like to work .

[ft.niagara]

I don't believe in a legislated workweek anywhere. Work as much as you can, if you want to work less, and your employer is ok with that, sure. But this ridiculous 35 hour work week concept? Sounds like people just want to be lazy.

I know a woman who works several jobs because she likes to work. There are some people who actually enjoy it, Higgly not with standing.

[Higgly]

I know a woman who works several jobs because she likes to work. There are some people who actually enjoy it, Higgly not with standing.

I'll bet she likes to get paid even more. I know I do.

I don't like being used. I'll bet she doesn't either.

[geoffrey]

I don't believe in a legislated workweek anywhere. Work as much as you can, if you want to work less, and your employer is ok with that, sure. But this ridiculous 35 hour work week concept? Sounds like people just want to be lazy.

Well of course someone needs to draw a line beyond which extra compensation must be paid and workers have a right to refuse. Other than that, you end up with Dickensian England, carpet-wallah India, and conditions under which only Geoffrey would like to work .

Why? Negotiate that into your contract. Overtime isn't covered with salaried employees unless you negotiate it into the contract. No one would be forcing you to work that much, if someone does, find another employer.

People expect way too much protection from the government. It's silly. It's unskilled workers that generally bitch and complain about working too long, ect. ect., and they only have themselves to blame for not making themselves worth more to employers.

You decide yourself on your compensation package, hours worked, ect. ect., by what you take in school, if you do post-secondary, what jobs you pick after. Your work week is your responsibility, not the governments to legislate.

[ft.niagara]

I know a woman who works several jobs because she likes to work. There are some people who actually enjoy it, Higgly not with standing.

I'll bet she likes to get paid even more. I know I do.

I don't like being used. I'll bet she doesn't either.

She gets paid. She attends elderly in the evenings and at night, as well as dental hygienist during day and evening. She is divorced, lives with family, inlaw apartment. She is happy with her life, IMO.

[Higgly]

Why? Negotiate that into your contract. Overtime isn't covered with salaried employees unless you negotiate it into the contract. No one would be forcing you to work that much, if someone does, find another employer.

This sort of thinking does not apply to a very large number of jobs out here. How much negotiation power do you think an immigrant construction worker, Wal-Mart cashier or Molly Maid has? Somebody has to set a baseline, and that is government's job. Otherwise we'd have child labour and things like WHMIS would not exist.

[Mad_Michael]

who was better and why?

Neither one was particularly impressive as Premier.

Rae's NDP government was a bit of a fluke because Tory Miller and Liberal McLeod both ran the two most horrifically bad election campaigns in Ontario electoral history. Bob Rae himself was very impressive and so won the election. Bay Street immediately freaked out and went nuts in the media on Rae's government, and the unions expected to be treated as if they hit 'paydirt'. Rae was caught in the middle and faced one of those wonderfully large surprise deficits that Conservatives seem to be so fond of leaving the next crew here in Ontario. Rae inherited a massive deficit, Bay Street screamed for cutbacks, the Unions screamed for a spending spree and Rae stood firm. On the whole, Rae didn't do too bad. Not great, not bad. He didn't really address any serious problems, but he didn't really create new ones except with his own Union supporters (Rae Days).

Harris's Conservative government rolled in immediately after Rae's one term government, again with no serious competition. His signature issue was the Provincial tax cut, which was mostly symbolic in that it was too tiny and was immediately offset by a previously established 'incremental' Federal increase six months later. In my paycheck, I didn't notice it at all (and I'm in one of the middle-upper brackets).

More significantly, Harris's forced amalgamation of Toronto has been an unmitigated disaster. It was expensive to force the bureaucratic amalgamation and the combination is more expensive to run than the previous system (exactly as all the critics predicted in every study upon the topic that Harris ignored).

Harris's reformation of the hospital sector was also an unmitigated disaster. He closed 18 hospitals across the province, though half of them continued on by amalgamating with other hospitals. Effectively doubling up administration costs and cutting back on emergency wards. Most of the chosen hospitals to get the axe were chosen according to regional politics, not demographics. Every penny cut by Harris in his first term was restored (and then some) in his second term.

Harris's reformation/swapping of property taxes, provincial services and education funding managed to make both problems worse, harder to solve, and we're still fighting over the mess in municipalities across the Province.

As a final note, I'd say Harris did a fair bit of damage, a bit of good and a whole lot of needless animosity and media bluster for nothing. On my ultimate scale of judgement (fiscal), Harris was a failure - he left the Provincial debt and the Provincial deficit larger when he left than what he started with. As a so-called Conservative, that is horrifically inept.

And no, I don't like this Dalton character one bit. Thankfully, he isn't doing too much damage, but he isn't doing anything productive either (or fixing any of Harris's mess). He inherited a fat deficit from Harris's government and probably is going to leave one just as big for John Tory in 2008/09.

Now there is a politician I like - John Tory. Looks like a good ole' Big Blue Machine type guy - exactly my kind of Ontario leadership I like to see.

[Saturn]

Rae had to raise taxes to make ends meet. In a bad recession as the one he happened to be the premier during, he didn't have much choice. I don't think he handled it the best way possible but his hands were mostly tied and he didn't have much room left to maneuver.

Harris on the other hand, was swimming in money and had plenty of room to make choices between alternatives. He didn't have to shut down hospitals and fire thousands of doctors and nurses but he chose to do it (sending the health-care workers to the US for jobs) - think shortages of health-care staff these days. He didn't have to cut education to a point where kids realized that education means nothing to society, but he chose to do it - think 30% drop-out rate as a result. He didn't have to sell off public assets to his friends for pennies but he chose to do it. He didn't have to continue turning up deficits and leave the province with a huge debt burden, but he chose to do it. He let Ontario's infrastructure deteriorate to a point where it is an impediment to economic growth. Any slightly reasonable person would have left education and health-care alone, would have paid down the debt, and then cut taxes. He did the exact opposite and IMO he is THE WORST premier Ontario has ever had.

[geoffrey]

Why? Negotiate that into your contract. Overtime isn't covered with salaried employees unless you negotiate it into the contract. No one would be forcing you to work that much, if someone does, find another employer.

This sort of thinking does not apply to a very large number of jobs out here. How much negotiation power do you think an immigrant construction worker, Wal-Mart cashier or Molly Maid has? Somebody has to set a baseline, and that is government's job. Otherwise we'd have child labour and things like WHMIS would not exist.

They chose their line of work and new what they were getting into.

They always have the right to leave and work another job if the dislike it.

[daniel]

Jeremy Rifkin's book "The End of Work" describes how the standard work hours had been reduced from 18hr per day back in the industrial revolution to the current standard 40hr per week. Along with each wave of mechanization replacing manual labour, long range trend had shown workers with reduce hours in expanding work environments.

In meetings with top CEOs and politicians, he found that they generally agreed that reducing the workweek would increase employment, productivity, and also keep costs under control. Unforturnately, again the political will, due to the short sighted corporate lobby, isn't there to enact it.

Only a fanatical rightwinger would tag anybody who wants to work less than 60hr/week lazy.

[Canuck E Stan]

Jeremy Rifkin's book "The End of Work" describes how the standard work hours had been reduced from 18hr per day back in the industrial revolution to the current standard 40hr per week.

Only a fanatical rightwinger would tag anybody who wants to work less than 60hr/week lazy.

Too bad the slave driven Ontario government isn't in the "standard 40 hour per week" world.

Ontario law says an employer can make you work 48 hours a week and only has to pay you overtime after 44 hours and is only required to give you 11 hours off between shifts.An employer isn't even required to give you a reason for being terminated.

Where is the Liberal left to change these "slave" rules that have been in effect since 1968

http://www.worksmartontario.gov.on.ca/scri...ntID=5-1-1-1#H1

[jdobbin]

Where is the Liberal left to change these "slave" rules that have been in effect since 1968

http://www.worksmartontario.gov.on.ca/scri...ntID=5-1-1-1#H1

Canada has gone to hell and a hand basket since they stopped letting children work in the mines.

[geoffrey]

Where is the Liberal left to change these "slave" rules that have been in effect since 1968

http://www.worksmartontario.gov.on.ca/scri...ntID=5-1-1-1#H1

Canada has gone to hell and a hand basket since they stopped letting children work in the mines.

It's true dobbin, imagine how much cheaper oil would be without the labour crunch. Six year olds on the rigs and no money problems. Brilliant.

In all seriousness, protection of children is one thing, protection of a responsible adult another. People agree to terms and are free to leave at any time. I don't really believe much in employment standards beyond health and safety. If your job makes you work 60 hours a week, ask for more money, but don't say your only working 40 because it's the law. It's a major problem I have with the way employees are in this country. They take a job, then immediately demand to change it to better suit their lifestyle... knowing full well the expectations and benefits when they signed up.

[Curiouscanuck]

I'm going to say Bob Rae was worse because his budget as followed a Keynesian orthodoxy, spending money in the public sector to stimulate employment and productivity. Keynesian theory has be heavily criticized by academics based on empirical evidence for at least 30 years before 1990, his first year in office.

Almost no government worldwide at this time follows Keynesian orthodoxy, especially developed nations. Harris had problems as well, however economic policy like Rae used is devastating to the well being of society. This is why it is not used anymore.

[madmax]

I'm going to say Bob Rae was worse because his budget as followed a Keynesian orthodoxy, spending money in the public sector to stimulate employment and productivity. Keynesian theory has be heavily criticized by academics based on empirical evidence for at least 30 years before 1990, his first year in office.

Almost no government worldwide at this time follows Keynesian orthodoxy, especially developed nations. Harris had problems as well, however economic policy like Rae used is devastating to the well being of society. This is why it is not used anymore.

Hindsight is 20/20 and both governments came in waves. Rae has already been judged a failure by the electorate. Raes biggest flaw is that he created the conditions to allow Harris to come in. And he has also been judged by the electorate.

With regards to Keynesian policy, it was formated around cyclical econonic models and the boom and busts of manufacturing and the market. Obviously, the jobs leaving Ontario at that time were more driven by the need to relocate because the Free Trade deal which was expanding towards Mexico. The Exodus in Ontario was like nothing seen before. Regardless of the government in power provincially, this would have occurred as industry took advantage of the new trade agreement. The difference is that Rae, and my guess any premier, in those first years, would have invoked the Keynesian model. There wasn't the clear understanding that Unlike layoffs of the 80s, where factories would restart, and capital projects would start during a slowdown, the factories in the 90s left, for dirtier pastures in Mexico and southern states.

Keynesian wouldn't have worked then, and it would be difficult to work in a global model. It is effective to a degree in a protectionist model. No economic policy is ever perfect, nor any model accurate in showing advantages or criticisms. BTW there are always critics;-).

Mike Harris was certainly more Ideologically driven then Rae. Rae was judged for trying to govern, and not addressing his base, including the newly swung over teachers, whom abandoned the Liberals after abandoning the Davis Conservatives. Rae abandoned many promises, like the Liberals were known for, Rae came from a liberal background and then governed like one. Rae created toll roads (I hate this) and Harris Sold the Roads ( I hate this More)

Rae created Rae days (Now evolved into workshare as a federal EI program

And Harris gave a Handshake, Adios inspectors and protectors.

Between the two failures, I think its a toss up.

Good Riddence to both, I wouldn't want to see either again.

[Figleaf]

For me it boils down to - one killed people, one didn't.

And I mean 'boils' as in - BOIL WATER WARNING.

Come on. Do you expect the Premier to go down into Walkerton and do a civil servant's job???

No, I expect him to leave procedures intact that backstop one civil servant with another in important things like water quality. Harris dismantled the provincial lab system that would have caught the town water system's problem.

The problem in Walkerton was the direct fault of civil servants. Other than holding the civil servant's hand, there is nothing the Premier could have done to be responsible for what happened.

You should read the commissioners report instead of relying on conjecture.

[Canadian Blue]

Maybe Ontario just elects really incompetent politician's.

[guyser]

[

You should read the commissioners report instead of relying on conjecture.

You mean the one where the operator knowingly falsified or doctored his reports, and the same guy when faced with a problem decided not to tell anyone?

Walkerton could have been avoided simply , the moron running the system should have been honest.

The Commissioners report dealt with the entire Ministry, not the moronic hadnlings of Stan Whathisname and his brother.

[Figleaf]

[

You should read the commissioners report instead of relying on conjecture.

You mean the one where the operator knowingly falsified or doctored his reports, and the same guy when faced with a problem decided not to tell anyone?

Walkerton could have been avoided simply , the moron running the system should have been honest.

The Commissioners report dealt with the entire Ministry, not the moronic hadnlings of Stan Whathisname and his brother.

Yes, the one that says Harris dismantled the provincial lab process that would have caught the town water system's problem.

[guyser]

[

Yes, the one that says Harris dismantled the provincial lab process that would have caught the town water system's problem.

Dont you mean the dismantled provincial lab process that Stan would NOT SUBMIT his water to in order to be tested?

Go ahead on this one but be forewarned....the lead Attorney on the Walkerton Inquiry is a close friend.

Let me paraphrase his conclusion.....If Stan had done his job, none of this would have happened, dismantling or not"

[nickjbor]

Harris

for two reasons. he had a vision, and because he stuck by his belifs when times got tough.