Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Really, they completely pulled out of Gaza and got rocket attacks for thanks. Israel had no choice but to pull out of Gaza. The cost of defending a handful of settlers was horrendous, and even an idiot like Sharon had to recognize that Gaza is completely unmanageable. How many people have those rockets killed? Say compared to the constant extra-judicial helicopter gunship assassinations that Israel now carries out as an almost daily routine.... How many Jews do you think must be permitted to die before Israel takes action against Palestinian terrorists? Well, they could make peace. With a government which does not even recognize your right to existance, and which claims all of your territory for its own? If that's who were there, yes. But they could make peace with the Palestinians instead. Quote
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 I don't care what some media source says. I'm telling you that Israeli officials acknowledged that Arab states' rhetoric was probably empty. Don't you believe me? I don't know about White Doors but, No. I don't believe you. Who or What 'Israeli officials' stated any such thing about the threat of Arab invasion in 1967 being merely ---- 'rhetoric'? Your source is impeccable, of course. Dayan, perhaps? Do you think I'm mistaken, or making it up? Quote
Argus Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 How many Jews do you think must be permitted to die before Israel takes action against Palestinian terrorists? Well, they could make peace. With a government which does not even recognize your right to existance, and which claims all of your territory for its own? If that's who were there, yes. But they could make peace with the Palestinians instead. Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Palestinians are represented by the Palestinian Authority which recognizes Israel, Hamas is a party that holds a majority in the PA legislature at this time. Confusing the two is like saying that the Labour party is the UK. Israel didn't make peace when they had a PA partner that did recognize it, so clearly recognition is not the difference thst makes the difference. Israels lament "how can we make peace with an enemy?" is a formula for eternal war -- someone you need to make peace with is axiomatically an enemy. You don't need peace with people you're already at peace with. The mystery to me is what Israel expects. They continually portray surprise that the Palestinians act and speak like their enemies. Gosh, could it be because of the enmity between them? Quote
geoffrey Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Palestinians are represented by the Palestinian Authority which recognizes Israel, Hamas is a party that holds a majority in the PA legislature at this time. Confusing the two is like saying that the Labour party is the UK. If the UK elected Nazi's, Communists, or Israel-hating Hamas-ians, I'd support cutting off trade with them too. More people want Hamas than any other party (that's why they are in power). That means more people support terrorism then not. Why bother trying to help such a people? Quote RealRisk.ca - (Latest Post: Prosecutors have no "Skin in the Game") --
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Palestinians are represented by the Palestinian Authority which recognizes Israel, Hamas is a party that holds a majority in the PA legislature at this time. Confusing the two is like saying that the Labour party is the UK. If the UK elected Nazi's, Communists, or Israel-hating Hamas-ians, I'd support cutting off trade with them too. We're not discussing who you might like to trade with. We're discussing the formal question of diplomatic recognition between states. More people want Hamas than any other party (that's why they are in power). That means more people support terrorism then not. But they don't regard them as terrorists. Why bother trying to help such a people? Because they've been wrongfully deprived of their rights and freedom. Quote
White Doors Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Palestinians are represented by the Palestinian Authority which recognizes Israel, Hamas is a party that holds a majority in the PA legislature at this time. Confusing the two is like saying that the Labour party is the UK. If the UK elected Nazi's, Communists, or Israel-hating Hamas-ians, I'd support cutting off trade with them too. We're not discussing who you might like to trade with. We're discussing the formal question of diplomatic recognition between states. More people want Hamas than any other party (that's why they are in power). That means more people support terrorism then not. But they don't regard them as terrorists. Why bother trying to help such a people? Because they've been wrongfully deprived of their rights and freedom. Yes, they have been deprived of their rights and freedom's by the PA. Who cares what 'they' regard Hamas as? They are terrorists, plain and simple. Most Western countries do NOT recognize the Hamas led legislature and hav ecut off funding because Hamas has refused to renounce violence and Recognize Israel's right to exist. Proudly, Canada was the first nation to do this. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
normanchateau Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Palestinians are represented by the Palestinian Authority which recognizes Israel, Hamas is a party that holds a majority in the PA legislature at this time. Are you saying that the Palestinian Authority holds more power than the democratically elected majority government and if so, is it real rather than symbolic? Canada's Head of State is the Queen but Canada's real power rests in Ottawa. The Palestinians elected a government which refuses to recognize Israel or its right to exist. Negotiating with such a government makes about as much sense as negotiating with the NSDAP. Quote
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Yes, they have been deprived of their rights and freedom's by the PA. Maybe, but the primary violator is Israel. Who cares what 'they' regard Hamas as? The point made was that by supporting Hamas they supported terrorism, so if they don't think of Hamas in those terms, it belies the contention that supporting terrorism is their intent. More broadly, anyone hoping to achieve a settlement of this conflict must, as a practical matter even if you don't agree with them, take notice of the motivations of the parties involved. They are terrorists, plain and simple. Reciting stupid formulas won't change the facts. Hamas' 'terrorist' status is anything but "plain and simple". Quote
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Who are represented by Hamas, who refuse to recognize Israel and who claim all Israeli territory for their own. Palestinians are represented by the Palestinian Authority which recognizes Israel, Hamas is a party that holds a majority in the PA legislature at this time. Are you saying that the Palestinian Authority holds more power than the democratically elected majority government and if so, is it real rather than symbolic? Hamas is a political party within the Palestinian Authority, in the way the Conservative Party is a political party within the government of Canada. The Palestinians elected a government which refuses to recognize Israel or its right to exist. They elected a party to government that does not recognized Israel. A governing party is not the government, just as the Conservative Party is not the same thing as the government of Canada. Negotiating with such a government ... ... makes sense if you want peace with it. Before Fatah recognized Israel, how do you think it was brought around to doing so? Answer: through negotiations. Quote
normanchateau Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 More broadly, anyone hoping to achieve a settlement of this conflict must, as a practical matter even if you don't agree with them, take notice of the motivations of the parties involved. Depends on what you mean by "take notice". Mein Kampf is filled with histrionic rationalization and delusional motivation for the ultimate annihiliation of a people just as the current Hamas government of Palestine rationalizes why an entire country should have no right to exist. Appeasement was the wrong approach in 1938. It still is. Quote
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 More broadly, anyone hoping to achieve a settlement of this conflict must, as a practical matter even if you don't agree with them, take notice of the motivations of the parties involved. Depends on what you mean by "take notice". Mein Kampf is filled with histrionic rationalization and delusional motivation for the ultimate annihiliation of a people just as the current Hamas government of Palestine rationalizes why an entire country should have no right to exist. Appeasement was the wrong approach in 1938. It still is. Mein Kampf is delusional drivel. Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. They view the imposition of the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948 as a wrongful act. No sound reason has been given for them to change their view on that, and so they continue holding that position. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. Suicide bombings are a rationally comprehensible event. Nice Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
White Doors Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Reciting stupid formulas won't change the facts. Hamas' 'terrorist' status is anything but "plain and simple". Holding them to account for their actions will change the facts. Appeasement doesn't work. A quick study of history will show you this. It is plain and simple. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
normanchateau Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 More broadly, anyone hoping to achieve a settlement of this conflict must, as a practical matter even if you don't agree with them, take notice of the motivations of the parties involved. Depends on what you mean by "take notice". Mein Kampf is filled with histrionic rationalization and delusional motivation for the ultimate annihiliation of a people just as the current Hamas government of Palestine rationalizes why an entire country should have no right to exist. Appeasement was the wrong approach in 1938. It still is. Mein Kampf is delusional drivel. Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. They view the imposition of the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948 as a wrongful act. No sound reason has been given for them to change their view on that, and so they continue holding that position. Delusional drivel to you but it was embraced and eagerly read by a nation which used it to rationalize murderous behaviour and invasions of others' territories. It is delusional if not hallucinatory for Hamas, after the nation of Israel has legally existed for multiple generations and 58 years, to claim that the same nation should not exist. Fatah understood this but the Palestinians have chosen to be governed by Hamas. Quote
White Doors Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 More broadly, anyone hoping to achieve a settlement of this conflict must, as a practical matter even if you don't agree with them, take notice of the motivations of the parties involved. Depends on what you mean by "take notice". Mein Kampf is filled with histrionic rationalization and delusional motivation for the ultimate annihiliation of a people just as the current Hamas government of Palestine rationalizes why an entire country should have no right to exist. Appeasement was the wrong approach in 1938. It still is. Mein Kampf is delusional drivel. Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. They view the imposition of the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948 as a wrongful act. No sound reason has been given for them to change their view on that, and so they continue holding that position. Delusional drivel to you but it was embraced and eagerly read by a nation which used it to rationalize murderous behaviour and invasions of others' territories. It is delusional if not hallucinatory for Hamas, after the nation of Israel has legally existed for multiple generations and 58 years, to claim that the same nation should not exist. Fatah understood this but the Palestinians have chosen to be governed by Hamas. No so coincidentally, Mein Kampf has been a best seller is aramaic for a few years. You have to understand your enemy. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. Suicide bombings are a rationally comprehensible event. Nice What a rotten, sleazy, shitbag distortion. Go F*ck Yourself. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. Suicide bombings are a rationally comprehensible event. Nice What a rotten, sleazy, shitbag distortion. Go F*ck Yourself. I'm sorry if your sensibilities are..ahem...offended. You say hamas's resistance to israel is a rational comprehensible interpretation of historical events......those are your words, however naive they may be. Suicide bombings are part of Hamas' resistance. So are random bombings, drive by shootings.....and they are in you words......rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. I do apologize again if you are offended, you seem like a nice simple fellow. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
geoffrey Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 They are terrorists, plain and simple. Reciting stupid formulas won't change the facts. Hamas' 'terrorist' status is anything but "plain and simple". They are terrorists. Their chosen victims are innocent civilians, thats who they try to kill on a regular basis. Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. Suicide bombings are a rationally comprehensible event. Nice What a rotten, sleazy, shitbag distortion. Go F*ck Yourself. That's not a distortion, that's what they do. Bomb Jews to get to screw virgins in heaven. I have little respect for a group or government that endorses such behavoir. Quote RealRisk.ca - (Latest Post: Prosecutors have no "Skin in the Game") --
normanchateau Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 More broadly, anyone hoping to achieve a settlement of this conflict must, as a practical matter even if you don't agree with them, take notice of the motivations of the parties involved. Depends on what you mean by "take notice". Mein Kampf is filled with histrionic rationalization and delusional motivation for the ultimate annihiliation of a people just as the current Hamas government of Palestine rationalizes why an entire country should have no right to exist. Appeasement was the wrong approach in 1938. It still is. Mein Kampf is delusional drivel. Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. They view the imposition of the state of Israel in Palestine in 1948 as a wrongful act. No sound reason has been given for them to change their view on that, and so they continue holding that position. Delusional drivel to you but it was embraced and eagerly read by a nation which used it to rationalize murderous behaviour and invasions of others' territories. It is delusional if not hallucinatory for Hamas, after the nation of Israel has legally existed for multiple generations and 58 years, to claim that the same nation should not exist. Fatah understood this but the Palestinians have chosen to be governed by Hamas. No so coincidentally, Mein Kampf has been a best seller is aramaic for a few years. You have to understand your enemy. Apparently translations of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion sells even better. Quote
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 ... It is delusional if not hallucinatory for Hamas, after the nation of Israel has legally existed for multiple generations and 58 years, to claim that the same nation should not exist. I agree that it's impractical to an almost delusional extent to think the creation of Israel it can be undone. It would also require crimes against humanity to do it. But that doesn't sweep Hamas into the category of delusion of Mein Kampf, and it doesn't mean that Hamas' position is unintelligibly nonsensical Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Hamas is a political party within the Palestinian Authority, in the way the Conservative Partyis a political party within the government of Canada. There distoring words then there is distorting reality. Hamas is not apolitical party in the way the Tories are a political party...... Hamas is a political party in the way the National Socialists were a political party. Do the Tory's have an armed wing? Do the Tory's have a Covenant that charges the Jews with an international conspiracy to control the world? Hamas does..... But hey, lets encourage dialogue with them There will be peace in out time! Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Hamas' resistance to Israel is a rationally comprehensible interpretation of historical events. Suicide bombings are a rationally comprehensible event. Nice What a rotten, sleazy, shitbag distortion. Go F*ck Yourself. I'm sorry if your sensibilities are..ahem...offended. You say hamas's resistance to israel is a rational comprehensible interpretation of historical events......those are your words, however naive they may be. You sleazily and dshonestly ignored the fact that this whole portion of the discussion relates to recognition of Israel. You maliciously imported the matter of suicide bomb tactics and implied (falsely and without foundation) that my comments supported that. That's dirty, unfair, and untrue. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Personal MessageFigleaf fuck off, Today, 11:38 AM Obscuring art in the service of censorship Group: Members Posts: 698 Member No.: 2091 Joined: 31-July 06 you're a dirty sack of shit. Yes I am.....but at least I don't make up exscuses for suicide bombers pretend that Hamas is no different than the conservatives. I may be an asshole, but I'm not a fool. Nor am I petulant child with hurt feelings. Here's a tissue, go blow your nose. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 Personal MessageFigleaf fuck off, Today, 11:38 AM Obscuring art in the service of censorship Group: Members Posts: 698 Member No.: 2091 Joined: 31-July 06 you're a dirty sack of shit. Yes I am.....but at least I don't make up exscuses for suicide bombers pretend that Hamas is no different than the conservatives. What is your motive for pursuing this outrageous set of slanders against me? I may be an asshole, ... You said it. Quote
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