We pay while Indians live in luxury

[charter.rights]

There is no doubt in my mind that justice will prevail. When that day comes CR you will find yourself equal to all citizens and they will be equal to you. No more and no less. In terms of land claims, the resolution to those outstanding issues will not be solved in your lifetime. They will not be resolved until citizens like you come to the conclusion that they have no more tights than any others. They will not be resolved until racism is defeated.

"Justice" my friend is "equity before the law" not necessarily equality before the law. There is no doubt that justice will prevail but not until equity is achieved.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Interesting argument, fatally flawed however. The confused approach you undertake chases another red herring as usual. Equity vs equality is that which you propose to make a stand on, and no sane citizen will accept this argument. That approach is as wrong as affirmative action and does little to achieve any form an enlightened society. The entire concept of claiming poor me because of ignorance certainly can't apply when you engage the services of a professional to take the matter before the courts. Should an individual citizen attempt to do so, then that argument would hold water.

Further to this entire point, society is has no desire to punish the children for the sins of the fathers. What has been done has been done and nothing will change that my friend. The justice you seek is not justice at all but merely revenge for your loses. You seek to cripple an entire society as an act of equity as compensation for what was done to natives more than than generations ago. Any real compensation was due to those individuals now dead and not their ancestors. History seldom recognizes the debts of ancestors as valid upon decedents. Feel free to keep flogging that dead horse though, that is your right.

I must ask where you get the notion that justice is equity under the law, not equality. According to the law of this land;

Schedule B

Constitution Act, 1982 (79)

Enacted as Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.) 1982, c. 11, which came into force on April 17, 1982

PART I

Canadian charter of rights and freedoms

Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

According to the law, you are simply wrong CR.

[noahbody]

BTW Natives ARE supporting us. Only we have yet to pay them what we agreed to for using the land and resources. I have no doubt that justice will prevail, someday and it seems that day is getting closer every minute.

Sure, let's start by agreeing the Six Nations has no right to any resources on the Haldimand tract. Since the crown never issued them a deed, they obviously didn't grant them mineral rights. Do you agree or disagree?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Sure, let's start by agreeing the Six Nations has no right to any resources on the Haldimand tract. Since the crown never issued them a deed, they obviously didn't grant them mineral rights. Do you agree or disagree?

Nice touch, that is a valid point. That would likely get a rise out of the debate team.

[AngusThermopyle]

seems that day is getting closer every minute.

Wow, you're actually right about this, for once.

Yes, Canada and Canadians are making concerted effective efforts to address these injustices, far more so than other nations would be willing to do. Justice will prevail, you are correct. The part that might cause you concern is the fact that Justice will most likely not conform to your desired vision.

As you are not really concerned about Justice I have no doubt you will be disappointed. I say this because Justice is not screwing millions of people over to appease a small and ineffectual group of "squeaky wheels". It is about being just to all. No doubt you will then commence to scream racism and genocide (I figure why stop?).

This will however not make Justice any less just.

[DangerMouse]

Don't forget if you no longer like it here, you are all welcome to return to Asia via Alaska.

Why it's my home? I am the Real Canadian! The rest of you originated from cranky old farts from Europe

[DangerMouse]

Great, another worthless needlessly insulting post. Adds a lot of weight to "you should have stayed in school".

Now on to the one thing you said that can be answered. The Saint Lawrence incident. Because a few Natives helped a few French sailors stuck in the ice does this mean we should give hand outs and segregated rights for perpetuity? (By the way, French sailors have never been known as Limey's, only British.) By your logic the Natives should be supporting us given the amount of times we have to move Natives due to flooding and other such things.

Let me get this straight, you can hurl insults about natives, all propagande crap and I speak the truth and it's called an insult? Do't believe everything you think Angus, Jerry, Dogonporch...I think you've got wetbrain....get a life

[DangerMouse]

Interesting argument, fatally flawed however. The confused approach you undertake chases another red herring as usual. Equity vs equality is that which you propose to make a stand on, and no sane citizen will accept this argument. That approach is as wrong as affirmative action and does little to achieve any form an enlightened society. The entire concept of claiming poor me because of ignorance certainly can't apply when you engage the services of a professional to take the matter before the courts. Should an individual citizen attempt to do so, then that argument would hold water.

Further to this entire point, society is has no desire to punish the children for the sins of the fathers. What has been done has been done and nothing will change that my friend. The justice you seek is not justice at all but merely revenge for your loses. You seek to cripple an entire society as an act of equity as compensation for what was done to natives more than than generations ago. Any real compensation was due to those individuals now dead and not their ancestors. History seldom recognizes the debts of ancestors as valid upon decedents. Feel free to keep flogging that dead horse though, that is your right.

I must ask where you get the notion that justice is equity under the law, not equality. According to the law of this land;

Schedule B

Constitution Act, 1982 (79)

Enacted as Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.) 1982, c. 11, which came into force on April 17, 1982

PART I

Canadian charter of rights and freedoms

Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

According to the law, you are simply wrong CR.

Jerry Fartin jibberish! Ever hear of precedence? Where did you learn your law? From a crackerjack box? In purely legal terms, if you look at it, you'll see that the governments are the real lawbreakers. The provincial government are a bunch of squatters? I can't make you feel guilty...you're the one with the dirty conscience as well as ANgus etc. Why? What a history you can be proud of...come over in boats; kill the indians after they saved your arses from the St Lawerence; rape their kids and women; spread your diseases (bioterrorism); commit acts of arson, then squat your squattin butt, and whine about what you got No wonder your busy trying to justify everything on here...get a life and most of all "DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK!" It's poisin thinking at it's best

[AngusThermopyle]

Jerry Fartin jibberish! Ever hear of precedence? Where did you learn your law? From a crackerjack box? In purely legal terms, if you look at it, you'll see that the governments are the real lawbreakers. The provincial government are a bunch of squatters? I can't make you feel guilty...you're the one with the dirty conscience as well as ANgus etc. Why? What a history you can be proud of...come over in boats; kill the indians after they saved your arses from the St Lawerence; rape their kids and women; spread your diseases (bioterrorism); commit acts of arson, then squat your squattin butt, and whine about what you got No wonder your busy trying to justify everything on here...get a life and most of all "DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK!" It's poisin thinking at it's best

I was going to answer this but its friday night and I just cant be bothered.

Its been a long week .

[JCAN]

Jerry Fartin jibberish! Ever hear of precedence? Where did you learn your law? From a crackerjack box? In purely legal terms, if you look at it, you'll see that the governments are the real lawbreakers. The provincial government are a bunch of squatters? I can't make you feel guilty...you're the one with the dirty conscience as well as ANgus etc. Why? What a history you can be proud of...come over in boats; kill the indians after they saved your arses from the St Lawerence; rape their kids and women; spread your diseases (bioterrorism); commit acts of arson, then squat your squattin butt, and whine about what you got No wonder your busy trying to justify everything on here...get a life and most of all "DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK!" It's poisin thinking at it's best

As I have said in the past Natives did not originate in North America either, a simple genetic map can and will prove that. There for they have no better claim to this land than anyone else. You seem to like to ignore that fact but then of course you would as soon as that is entered into the equation all other arguments become mute. And even if you did not want to believe that what difference does it make you all whine like you are the first people in history to ever be conquered, you are probably the only to continue to be supported by the victors though, but I suggest you get over it because your ancestors could do nothing then and you can do nothing about it now accept continue to cry about it I suppose.

At the end of the day we have to justify nothing to you it is you that as to justify to your future generations 200 years from now why they are still living on reserves and being supported by the European invaders. Maybe though someone in that time frame might pull there head out of their ass and decide it is better to become self sufficient but I wont hold my breath.

As far as spreading diseases I suggest you read Darwin's Origin of Species he says something along the lines of SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST adapt or perish or don't I could care less I know where I will be.

[DangerMouse]

As I have said in the past Natives did not originate in North America either, a simple genetic map can and will prove that. There for they have no better claim to this land than anyone else. You seem to like to ignore that fact but then of course you would as soon as that is entered into the equation all other arguments become mute. And even if you did not want to believe that what difference does it make you all whine like you are the first people in history to ever be conquered, you are probably the only to continue to be supported by the victors though, but I suggest you get over it because your ancestors could do nothing then and you can do nothing about it now accept continue to cry about it I suppose.

At the end of the day we have to justify nothing to you it is you that as to justify to your future generations 200 years from now why they are still living on reserves and being supported by the European invaders. Maybe though someone in that time frame might pull there head out of their ass and decide it is better to become self sufficient but I wont hold my breath.

As far as spreading diseases I suggest you read Darwin's Origin of Species he says something along the lines of SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST adapt or perish or don't I could care less I know where I will be.

Thanks for the good laugh! If it doesnt matter then why do governments spend money trying to prove otherwise? Even if they did come from Asia it still will not change the fact that they were the first ones here..the original--the first Canadians...furthermore the natives were not "conquered." And that is why these claims are still valid....finally mr Lightbulb....they're your laws You freakin rightwingers are all out right "DUMB."

[Who's Doing What?]

Why it's my home? I am the Real Canadian! The rest of you originated from cranky old farts from Europe

Perhaps you are just the "cranky old farts" from Asia.

[JCAN]

Thanks for the good laugh! If it doesnt matter then why do governments spend money trying to prove otherwise? Even if they did come from Asia it still will not change the fact that they were the first ones here..the original--the first Canadians...furthermore the natives were not "conquered." And that is why these claims are still valid....finally mr Lightbulb....they're your laws You freakin rightwingers are all out right "DUMB."

It is yet to be proven that Natives were the first ones here and even if they were they are still a conquered people, just because we are stupid enough to indulge them does not change the fact. They lost there fore should have no special rights I have always been surprised that they do not have special parking as well.

Just because something is above your understanding does not make it wrong or any less valid, our laws are your laws like it or not and if you continue to believe that you are living in your own little world I suggest we all quit talking and finish this once and for all and then you can be a conquered people again but this time there will be no delusions of grandeur, no 200 year debate, and no special rights. the native populace without us paying there way would loose very quickly this time I think they would be quite surprised with the lack of sympathy they would get from the other countries as well considering they think us "European invaders" are retarded for still giving them anything. Since all we would have to do is quit paying them any extra beyond the services that all Canadians are deserving of. The natives would probably start it giving us the right to finish it.

Someone made a good point earlier about how if Germany had won ww2 Canada would be a very different place right now, all should understand that if any other country in the world were to take over Canada it would be a very different place most of all for the Natives who would all have to learn to work for all they have Because guess what NO BODY CARES WHO WAS ANYWHERE FIRST, ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD THEY NEVER HAVE.

Take a look at a 200 year old European map now look at it today yet some how you don't have millions of French, German, Swiss, Italian, English ect. crying about who was where first. I guess that level of civility is beyond some. The world was populated from all of us coming from one central point moving outwards some came later walking right over the ones in their way.

It would be nice to believe that we could solve all these issues in a Utopian way all holding hands and singing kumbia and such, but if all the natives think this way then I doubt it will end this way.

[AngusThermopyle]

Angus with a high IQ what an arrogant statement

Learn to read "lighbulb". Where did I say such a thing `lightbulb`?

C'mon, use your quote function and show me where I said any such thing, "lightbulb".

I guess you wont will you "lighbulb", because i didn't say it did I "lightbulb"?

Edited May 10, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[DangerMouse]

Okay, now you guys are getting just plain stupid.

Don't you realise that when it comes down to I.Q.'s i've got all of you beat?

[AngusThermopyle]

Okay, now you guys are getting just plain stupid.

Don't you realise that when it comes down to I.Q.'s i've got all of you beat?

Ahhh, I see what you're doing. You're quote mining. This is a common and deceptive practise used by those with nothing to say. In quote mining something that has been said is quoted out of context in order to make a point. The point however is not accurate as to what was actually said. As I mentioned, it is a very dishonest tactic, many consider it to be worse than outright lieing.

So, why didn't you quote the entirety of what I said? Oh, thats right, you appear to think it's fun to lie and deceive.

So congratulations, you have just shown all present exactly how low you will go and how deceitfull you are. You have just stripped yourself of any shred of credibility you thought you had.You should be proud of youreself.

Edited May 11, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[jbg]

Ahhh, I see what you're doing. You're quote mining. This is a common and deceptive practise used by those with nothing to say. In quote mining something that has been said is quoted out of context in order to make a point. The point however is not accurate as to what was actually said. As I mentioned, it is a very dishonest tactic, many consider it to be worse than outright lieing.

It is also used by some to boost their post count.

[DangerMouse]

It is also used by some to boost their post count.

And both of you have more posts than me!

[jbg]

And both of you have more posts than me!

I post, at a pretty steady 10 post per day clip, on a variety of topics. Your topic selection is more limited.

[AngusThermopyle]

And both of you have more posts than me!

Yeah yeah, thats nice. Nice attempt to sidestep the issue as well, not.

Quote mining, the same thing as lieing.

Run along now, you have nothing left to say thats worth hearing.

[DangerMouse]

Yeah yeah, thats nice. Nice attempt to sidestep the issue as well, not.

Quote mining, the same thing as lieing.

Run along now, you have nothing left to say thats worth hearing.

I out did you with all my responses! Why? Because you just know tht your full of crap when it comes to aboriginal issues you cranky old farts

[AngusThermopyle]

I out did you with all my responses!

So you consider lieing and deceiving or misrepresenting to be "out doing" someone? Thats pretty twisted.

So far you have not contributed one point with any merit to this discussion, all you've done is insult in a very juvenile manner. Then when caught lieing you claim to have "out done". You truly have a twisted sense of reality.

Now like I said earlier, run along, you're done here now.

[DangerMouse]

So you consider lieing and deceiving or misrepresenting to be "out doing" someone? Thats pretty twisted.

So far you have not contributed one point with any merit to this discussion, all you've done is insult in a very juvenile manner. Then when caught lieing you claim to have "out done". You truly have a twisted sense of reality.

Now like I said earlier, run along, you're done here now.

Angus! Don't believe evrything you think...that's the problem with the world. KNow-everything-in-the-book-perfect-europeans like you always seem to have the answers! You've been trying to run the lives of indians since confederation and look at the bloody mess you made, and bozos like you give natives heck over your system of laws--hence--lightbulb rightwingers Look at the fishery, billions spent on so-called management and the eastcoast still collapsed...what were these so-called managers up too? Good grief--get a life--run along now

[JCAN]

Angus! Don't believe evrything you think...that's the problem with the world. KNow-everything-in-the-book-perfect-europeans like you always seem to have the answers! You've been trying to run the lives of indians since confederation and look at the bloody mess you made, and bozos like you give natives heck over your system of laws--hence--lightbulb rightwingers Look at the fishery, billions spent on so-called management and the eastcoast still collapsed...what were these so-called managers up too? Good grief--get a life--run along now

You know what I think you are right we do miss manage the fisheries and wild life both cultures are guilty but we should limit all including the natives if we did not allow them to over fish and hunt we might not be in the predicament we are in. I think one could argue this on all points the moment you give one group free rain on all resources and they are not accountable there will always be abuses and this fact is at the heart of this discussion, it does not matter who was here first we are all here now and if we do not fix the underlying social and economical issues we all loose. The only way do do this is to treat all equal and give all no mater their race the same responsibilities. One way or another the hand outs must stop for this to happen.

If the natives are truly equal and capable of running their own lives (though I do not believe we run their lives for them now)they must prove it the lame excuses do nothing but keep themselves down it is time they were left to their own accord like the rest of us and what happens, happens no culture is perfect there will always be vagrants of all races but they should all have the same resources to help themselves not some better than others.

The opportunities afforded to the natives have been wasted and should be granted to all Canadian citizens. This is the simple formula to make Canada as a whole better. The fact is there are still people immigrating to Canada and there will always be, we are truly multi cultural and we need to quit segregating the rights if it is ever to be cohesive we must have the same rights for all.

Edited May 12, 2008 by JCAN

[BornAlbertan]

You can blame white man as much as you want but at the end of the day you have to look in the mirror and decide who is in control of your destiny. If you think I am responsible for your problems because of the colour of my skin...I am sorry...but I don't care about racists and they get what they deserve and live the lives they make for themselves.