We pay while Indians live in luxury

[noahbody]

Wrong again.

To be wrong again I have to be wrong a first time. One comes before two. Secondly, you said "When Brant was deposed, it split Six Nation loyalties down the middle." I reiterated your statement. So for me to be wrong, you must be wrong as well.

It is well documented both in written history and oral that Brant was nothing more than Pine Tree - still an esteemed position but nonetheless he violated the Great Law and was sanctioned for it.

It is not well documented that Brant was only a Pine Tree Chief. His status is uncertain.

It's fine to take oral history into account but it has to be trumped by the recorded words of the chiefs at the time. The Brant deposition makes the suggestion that Brant was a mere translator laughable.

[JCAN]

What did I say to earn that cheap shot?

Sorry it was not aimed at you. CR & DM are the targets.

As for a hick I happen to travel through Europe Germany, Switzerland France, Italy to name a few almost every year for the last 5 years "to visit inlaws" I have seen much of Canada and the States my next trip will take me to Japan so I feel that though I may have come from the north I Have Experienced enough to have pushed my opinions past that of a hick, I currently live in Winnipeg now for about 8 years 3 of which were downtown york & smith I have seen what happens in the north I have seen what happens in urban cities. Some in this forum I get the distinct feeling that they have not gone much further into this world than their front door which explains their heliocentric ideas.

I have also seen what happens with different people in different countries their opinions on things such as the German wall, the turks, Jewish, and other internal conflicts and I see and hear what other countries think of our situation. In Germany post secondary education is all but free to everyone .

Since the fall of the Berlin wall there has been some problems because now you have one part of a country responsible for bringing the other up to date and building an infrastructure this is not a bad thing because with in a generation or so these issues will be fixed.

It is a lot like our own situation but the difference here is we do not have a plan to fix it as long as one group is supported by the other this country will be doomed to fail it is only a matter of time. If all were educated our country would be more prospurous in turn so would we. Believe it or not there are white, black, and brown people and many others that cannot afford a secondary education.

If this is to ever be fixed the Native nation will have to learn to stand on their own to feet, scary as that might be for them it is the best for all even them thought they can not see this yet.

I did have some spelling mistakes I appoligize for that but my opinion is still the same and is a more founded one then some others who will always resort to the name calling because that is what children will do. I do how ever look forward to more from jbg and once again I apologize for the miss understanding.

[JCAN]

P.S I was born in Northern Ontario not the Oil Sands just thought I would set this straight

[charter.rights]

Wrong again.

I suggest you research the block B transaction in particular, in which a crown deed was issued (meaning the land passed though the crown). Yes, that means it was sold, not leased. Sorry.

That doesn't mean a hill of beans. There were Crown patents issued all over the place. They were still illegal because they did not pass through a "meeting of the people" to have them agree first. According to the Haldimand Proclamation, not meeting the community and getting their agreement first negates any transaction. You are still wrong.

To be wrong again I have to be wrong a first time. One comes before two. Secondly, you said "When Brant was deposed, it split Six Nation loyalties down the middle." I reiterated your statement. So for me to be wrong, you must be wrong as well. It is not well documented that Brant was only a Pine Tree Chief. His status is uncertain.

It's fine to take oral history into account but it has to be trumped by the recorded words of the chiefs at the time. The Brant deposition makes the suggestion that Brant was a mere translator laughable.

It certainly is well documented. You have to read "documents" first before you can make that evaluation. Doing lazy Google searches doesn't count. The Chiefs support exactly what I have been stating. Brant was a Pine Tree Chief and if you read further down the article where is says "The following are the names of the principle chiefs in the Six Nations." you won't find Brant or his Mohawk name Thayendinaga, on the list. I guess that is what the Royaner meant. If he isn't on that list then he couldn't possibly be a condoled Chief. No one but a condoled chief can speak on behalf of the Confederacy.

You'll also find that no one in the history of Six Nations or the Confederacy that Brant was raised to be a principle Chief, since the names of Royaner are fixed and hereditary. If Brant was codoled as a Royaner, he would have been given a hereditary name as it gets changed until he dies. Alas his name is Thayendinaga....no chief.

[charter.rights]

Sorry it was not aimed at you. CR & DM are the targets.

As for a hick I happen to travel through Europe Germany, Switzerland France, Italy to name a few almost every year for the last 5 years "to visit inlaws" I have seen much of Canada and the States my next trip will take me to Japan so I feel that though I may have come from the north I Have Experienced enough to have pushed my opinions past that of a hick, I currently live in Winnipeg now for about 8 years 3 of which were downtown york & smith I have seen what happens in the north I have seen what happens in urban cities. Some in this forum I get the distinct feeling that they have not gone much further into this world than their front door which explains their heliocentric ideas.

I have also seen what happens with different people in different countries their opinions on things such as the German wall, the turks, Jewish, and other internal conflicts and I see and hear what other countries think of our situation. In Germany post secondary education is all but free to everyone .

Since the fall of the Berlin wall there has been some problems because now you have one part of a country responsible for bringing the other up to date and building an infrastructure this is not a bad thing because with in a generation or so these issues will be fixed.

It is a lot like our own situation but the difference here is we do not have a plan to fix it as long as one group is supported by the other this country will be doomed to fail it is only a matter of time. If all were educated our country would be more prospurous in turn so would we. Believe it or not there are white, black, and brown people and many others that cannot afford a secondary education.

If this is to ever be fixed the Native nation will have to learn to stand on their own to feet, scary as that might be for them it is the best for all even them thought they can not see this yet.

I did have some spelling mistakes I appoligize for that but my opinion is still the same and is a more founded one then some others who will always resort to the name calling because that is what children will do. I do how ever look forward to more from jbg and once again I apologize for the miss understanding.

Born a hick, always a hick - no matter where you go you carry that hick mentality with you.

Perhaps you should learn to stand on your own "two" feet first. If not for resources that we steal from First Nations Territories, and without their agreement to develop the towns and cities sitting on their land, we would be no where. But I do see that is where you are already so no sense changing the status quo.

[jbg]

P.S I was born in Northern Ontario not the Oil Sands just thought I would set this straight

Moosonee? Kapuskasing?

[JCAN]

Moosonee? Kapuskasing?

We moved around a bit but I lived mostly around Fort Frances, Pickle Lake, and Red Lake area. All are north of Thunder Bay but pickle lake is almost directly west of Moosonee as the crow fly's

[JCAN]

Born a hick, always a hick - no matter where you go you carry that hick mentality with you.

Perhaps you should learn to stand on your own "two" feet first. If not for resources that we steal from First Nations Territories, and without their agreement to develop the towns and cities sitting on their land, we would be no where. But I do see that is where you are already so no sense changing the status quo.

I will take a step down to your level for a moment, Once an idiot always an idiot and your mental impotency comes across in all that you say. I have been standing on my own to feet for quite some time now. I have never collected E.I Well fare or any other social hand outs but I have been paying into them for many years now.

Take a look around and quit singing the same old song nothing was stolen you have no proof natives were here first and one can prove through genetics they are not native to this continent there fore they have no more right to it than anyone else does. and if they disagree I suggest we do a bit of testing just to see but somehow I think this will not go over to well just like other archaeological evidence of Europeans predating native culture on this land. These sort of things tend to get covered up pretty fast.

To put it bluntly the reason we do not just simply cut them off is most would just starve or die of exposure and we are not accustomed to doing things like that. We all want a mutually beneficial out come but in order for that to happen both sides must be realistic about what is owed and what will be received.

If the Europeans were as caught up with such semantics that continent would have been ripped apart long ago. as someone said in an earlier post the Jews moved on and made more money that does not make what happened right but it does show you what is possible when you have the desire to be prosperous and proud enough not to take the hand outs

P.S. Get over it whats done is done if things are going to change for the betterment of all you have to quit whining about what can not be changed and do something new. Laws can and will be changed nothing is in stone and even if it was it can be smashed to little bits like your weak arguments.

[noahbody]

That doesn't mean a hill of beans. There were Crown patents issued all over the place. They were still illegal because they did not pass through a "meeting of the people" to have them agree first. According to the Haldimand Proclamation, not meeting the community and getting their agreement first negates any transaction. You are still wrong.

Read the Haldimand Proclamation. As I pointed out before, it has nothing to do with land sales. But, regarding the land sales we're discussing, you're wrong anyways:

Finally, Brant, with the power of attorney of 30 chiefs, accompanied by 300 warriors, got council to approve the sales and deeds on July 26, 1797. The official act was signed on Feb. 5, 1798 when Brant asked and received the Crown's approval for the sales.

http://www.cambridgenow.ca/npps/story.cfm?id=163

It certainly is well documented. You have to read "documents" first before you can make that evaluation. Doing lazy Google searches doesn't count.

If you can provide me a document that is more relevant to this discussion than the Brand Depositon please do. Since you haven't read the Haldimand Proclamation yet, a Google search might do you some good.

The Chiefs support exactly what I have been stating.

Of course they do. They're negotiating.

Brant was a Pine Tree Chief and if you read further down the article where is says "The following are the names of the principle chiefs in the Six Nations." you won't find Brant or his Mohawk name Thayendinaga, on the list. I guess that is what the Royaner meant. If he isn't on that list then he couldn't possibly be a condoled Chief. No one but a condoled chief can speak on behalf of the Confederacy.

Of course his name isn't on the list. The letter is of his desposing. But it is the most important part of the letter. It's an updated list of principal chiefs, not an updated list of Pine Tree Chiefs. To paraphrase, it's telling the British "Here are the chiefs of authority." If Brant had no authority as you'd like to believe, there would be no reason for the list would there?

You'll also find that no one in the history of Six Nations or the Confederacy that Brant was raised to be a principle Chief, since the names of Royaner are fixed and hereditary. If Brant was codoled as a Royaner, he would have been given a hereditary name as it gets changed until he dies. Alas his name is Thayendinaga....no chief.

Let me ask you this: Was John Brant a chief. By tradition, who stood in front of council to appoint him? And who was he replacing?

[jbg]

We moved around a bit but I lived mostly around Fort Frances, Pickle Lake, and Red Lake area. All are north of Thunder Bay but pickle lake is almost directly west of Moosonee as the crow fly's

Near Peawanuck (link)?

[JCAN]

Near Peawanuck (link)?

Peawanuk is more northern I think it might have been called Winisk at one time but is almost right above pickle lake but there is no road between them most of the northern reserves and mines are fly inn from that point or you have to drive a very long way around

[charter.rights]

I will take a step down to your level for a moment, Once an idiot always an idiot and your mental impotency comes across in all that you say. I have been standing on my own to feet for quite some time now. I have never collected E.I Well fare or any other social hand outs but I have been paying into them for many years now.

Take a look around and quit singing the same old song nothing was stolen you have no proof natives were here first and one can prove through genetics they are not native to this continent there fore they have no more right to it than anyone else does. and if they disagree I suggest we do a bit of testing just to see but somehow I think this will not go over to well just like other archaeological evidence of Europeans predating native culture on this land. These sort of things tend to get covered up pretty fast.

To put it bluntly the reason we do not just simply cut them off is most would just starve or die of exposure and we are not accustomed to doing things like that. We all want a mutually beneficial out come but in order for that to happen both sides must be realistic about what is owed and what will be received.

If the Europeans were as caught up with such semantics that continent would have been ripped apart long ago. as someone said in an earlier post the Jews moved on and made more money that does not make what happened right but it does show you what is possible when you have the desire to be prosperous and proud enough not to take the hand outs

P.S. Get over it whats done is done if things are going to change for the betterment of all you have to quit whining about what can not be changed and do something new. Laws can and will be changed nothing is in stone and even if it was it can be smashed to little bits like your weak arguments.

What an ignorant racist POV. But thanks! It tells me where you are coming from......Just above an IQ of about 60....

BTW I really like your new helmet and Barney lunchbox. It matches your eyes darling.

[JCAN]

What an ignorant racist POV. But thanks! It tells me where you are coming from......Just above an IQ of about 60....

BTW I really like your new helmet and Barney lunchbox. It matches your eyes darling.

You really are as stupid as you come across aren't you? there is nothing racist about what I said, back up your claims a bit every time you hear something you do not like or can not refute you regress to name calling I am coming from the Canada of today not 200 years ago like yourself the facts are clear as day and I would match my IQ against yours any day you simpleton.

[jbg]

What an ignorant racist POV. But thanks! It tells me where you are coming from......Just above an IQ of about 60....

My IQ is around 71, not far over 60. You are discriminating against people like me with low IQ's.

[AngusThermopyle]

My IQ is around 71, not far over 60. You are discriminating against people like me with low IQ's.

Okay, now you guys are getting just plain stupid.

Don't you realise that when it comes down to I.Q.'s i've got all of you beat?

I absolutely guarantee that mine is the lowest, go ahead, prove me wrong.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Lets look at this entire situation from a standpoint that is a little different. Lets use the native position that it is the community that must make decisions. Lets put the matter to a vote. Lets simply use democracy to solve this problem and let the reality sink in.

CR it simply doesn't matter what words you choose to use, they will always announce your racism. You can't change history, Brandt sold you out and that is tough. Yet it changes nothing. The harsh truth is that there are now several generations of folks that have lived and died on those lands, and those folks have rights as well. They will not be displaced. Even if the crown made mistakes it is not the fault of those who now live there and they cannot be held accountable for the mistakes of the government. That is a legal fact.

CR you really need to grow up and stop your childish rants. You are a fool to believe that anybody owes you anything. In this nation as it is in this world you must work for what you want. There are no free rides and you simply will never get what you want because you are to lazy or foolish to understand why.

[charter.rights]

Lets look at this entire situation from a standpoint that is a little different. Lets use the native position that it is the community that must make decisions. Lets put the matter to a vote. Lets simply use democracy to solve this problem and let the reality sink in.

CR it simply doesn't matter what words you choose to use, they will always announce your racism. You can't change history, Brandt sold you out and that is tough. Yet it changes nothing. The harsh truth is that there are now several generations of folks that have lived and died on those lands, and those folks have rights as well. They will not be displaced. Even if the crown made mistakes it is not the fault of those who now live there and they cannot be held accountable for the mistakes of the government. That is a legal fact.

CR you really need to grow up and stop your childish rants. You are a fool to believe that anybody owes you anything. In this nation as it is in this world you must work for what you want. There are no free rides and you simply will never get what you want because you are to lazy or foolish to understand why.

I never said that anyone owes me anything. I said WE owe THEM our existence. Get over yourself or get a moderator's position pauper.

[AngusThermopyle]

I've been staying out of this thread because its become very boring and redundant. However I have to say something about the following.

I said WE owe THEM our existence.

This statement is so wrong as to be farcical. We do not owe our existance to Natives, this is a myth activists loudly proclaim without one single shred of proof, it is pure opinion based on ignorance. We owe our existance to a universe with clear and well ordered laws of nature, not some native.

As I said CR, you couldn't have gotten that one more wrong if you formed a study group and worked on it for a month of sundays.

[noahbody]

I said WE owe THEM our existence.

If I recall, it was approximately 3,000 natives that fought in WWII. If Hitler had won the native population would be extinct without question. So unless you can make a case that 3,000 natives could have defeated Hitler with rifles, you might want to reconsider your statement.

Possibly the government should ask for compensation for the soldiers that died protecting native land and lives.

[DangerMouse]

If I recall, it was approximately 3,000 natives that fought in WWII. If Hitler had won the native population would be extinct without question. So unless you can make a case that 3,000 natives could have defeated Hitler with rifles, you might want to reconsider your statement.

Possibly the government should ask for compensation for the soldiers that died protecting native land and lives.

Yep aboriginal veterans fought all you cranky bald headed farts freedom...my uncles went overseas....Angus with a high IQ what an arrogant statement.... you pulled all your information from a crackerjack box as all the right wing doorknobs with their law degrees...if not you read it on the toilet walls and base all your information on gossip You, Dogon porch, Borg, Drea, JPCAn etc need to get a life instead of being in these forums all the time while sipping your whiskey

Didnt the natives rescue a bunch of boat people from Europe who were stuck in ice on the St LAwerence? It was later discovered that they had scurvy and basically the natives saved their arses. The next time the cranky old farts came a cross they loaded down with lemons and limes hence the name limies These boat people came ashore and reproduced, and now we're stuck with the likes of Angus and all the other whiners in this society If you don't like it, please jump on that boat and head back to Europe! We have enough problems and can do without a bunch of grown men crying like babies

[Who's Doing What?]

Yep aboriginal veterans fought all you cranky bald headed farts freedom...my uncles went overseas....Angus with a high IQ what an arrogant statement.... you pulled all your information from a crackerjack box as all the right wing doorknobs with their law degrees...if not you read it on the toilet walls and base all your information on gossip You, Dogon porch, Borg, Drea, JPCAn etc need to get a life instead of being in these forums all the time while sipping your whiskey

Didnt the natives rescue a bunch of boat people from Europe who were stuck in ice on the St LAwerence? It was later discovered that they had scurvy and basically the natives saved their arses. The next time the cranky old farts came a cross they loaded down with lemons and limes hence the name limies These boat people came ashore and reproduced, and now we're stuck with the likes of Angus and all the other whiners in this society If you don't like it, please jump on that boat and head back to Europe! We have enough problems and can do without a bunch of grown men crying like babies

Don't forget if you no longer like it here, you are all welcome to return to Asia via Alaska.

[noahbody]

Yep aboriginal veterans fought all you cranky bald headed farts freedom...my uncles went overseas....

That would make you over six years old. I don't believe it.

[AngusThermopyle]

Yep aboriginal veterans fought all you cranky bald headed farts freedom...my uncles went overseas....Angus with a high IQ what an arrogant statement.... you pulled all your information from a crackerjack box as all the right wing doorknobs with their law degrees...if not you read it on the toilet walls and base all your information on gossip You, Dogon porch, Borg, Drea, JPCAn etc need to get a life instead of being in these forums all the time while sipping your whiskey

Didnt the natives rescue a bunch of boat people from Europe who were stuck in ice on the St LAwerence? It was later discovered that they had scurvy and basically the natives saved their arses. The next time the cranky old farts came a cross they loaded down with lemons and limes hence the name limies These boat people came ashore and reproduced, and now we're stuck with the likes of Angus and all the other whiners in this society If you don't like it, please jump on that boat and head back to Europe! We have enough problems and can do without a bunch of grown men crying like babies

Great, another worthless needlessly insulting post. Adds a lot of weight to "you should have stayed in school".

Now on to the one thing you said that can be answered. The Saint Lawrence incident. Because a few Natives helped a few French sailors stuck in the ice does this mean we should give hand outs and segregated rights for perpetuity? (By the way, French sailors have never been known as Limey's, only British.) By your logic the Natives should be supporting us given the amount of times we have to move Natives due to flooding and other such things.

[charter.rights]

Great, another worthless needlessly insulting post. Adds a lot of weight to "you should have stayed in school".

Now on to the one thing you said that can be answered. The Saint Lawrence incident. Because a few Natives helped a few French sailors stuck in the ice does this mean we should give hand outs and segregated rights for perpetuity? (By the way, French sailors have never been known as Limey's, only British.) By your logic the Natives should be supporting us given the amount of times we have to move Natives due to flooding and other such things.

No. But it means that we have to revisit every legal document and treaty that proves how we came in control of the land. We had no right to it then, except by the graciousness of native people allowing us to live among them, and today we must prove that land transferred legitimately from them to us. The problem is that the legal documents favour them -even to the degree that we have entrenched the Royal Proclamation 1763 and native land rights into the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The RC1763 basically is the founding document for our existence here, and outlines at that time where all "Indian Lands" were to remain separate from colonies. Unless we can prove there was a cede we are snooker, legally. The only recourse as we have seen is to try to negotiate a better deal for ourselves but starting at a deficit it is pretty difficult to predict success.

BTW Natives ARE supporting us. Only we have yet to pay them what we agreed to for using the land and resources. I have no doubt that justice will prevail, someday and it seems that day is getting closer every minute.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

There is no doubt in my mind that justice will prevail. When that day comes CR you will find yourself equal to all citizens and they will be equal to you. No more and no less. In terms of land claims, the resolution to those outstanding issues will not be solved in your lifetime. They will not be resolved until citizens like you come to the conclusion that they have no more tights than any others. They will not be resolved until racism is defeated.