Harper acuses Liberals as being Anti Israel

[rover1]

Care to comment on the rest of my post, RB?

[Figleaf]

[

Edited July 22, 2007 by Figleaf

[jbg]

I'm not sure just where and how being 'pro-Israeli' came in as being the hallmark of being legitimate in Canadian discourse. It probably relates to the confusion, in many minds, about the difference between being anti-Jewish, and being anti-Israeli. In other words, some people use 'pro-Israeli' to show that they are not anti-Semite.

Canada is a Western democracy, as is the US, Australia, UK, Jamaica, Barbados, and most other English-speaking countries, plus the Scandinavian countries and, intermittently, certain Old Europe countries. Would one doubt that Canada is, for example, "pro-Australian" or even question it. Israel is a Western democracy. The Palestinian Authority is unlikely to become one. None of the other Arab countries are. Why would anyone rationally not expect Canada to be "pro-Israel" for that very reason? Any other policy is a perversion.

How must all this affect the largely assimilated or becoming assimilated Arab-Canadian community? Here they are, having adopted Canada as their home, many second and third generation, having accepted Canadian ideas of fairness and balance, and yes uncertainty, and thinking Canadian thoughts-'I just don't understand how to solve a problem like this-oh well I hope they work something out-to hell with them all'etc- and they are told they must be 'pro-Israeli' to be decent. Not good. Perhaps not intended, but not good.

Well, they got themselves into a mess. It will be interesting to see how they get themselves out of it, if they can.

Until Canadians can remember how to speak at least to one another, about things which they consider important, debate in this country will be a sorry spectacle.

These "assimilated Arabs" knew they were coming to a Western, English-speaking democracy when they came to Canada. If they don't like Canadian (or US) conditions, they have a very Canadian freedom; the right to leave.

[rover1]

I'm not sure just where and how being 'pro-Israeli' came in as being the hallmark of being legitimate in Canadian discourse. It probably relates to the confusion, in many minds, about the difference between being anti-Jewish, and being anti-Israeli. In other words, some people use 'pro-Israeli' to show that they are not anti-Semite.

Canada is a Western democracy, as is the US, Australia, UK, Jamaica, Barbados, and most other English-speaking countries, plus the Scandinavian countries and, intermittently, certain Old Europe countries. Would one doubt that Canada is, for example, "pro-Australian" or even question it. Israel is a Western democracy. The Palestinian Authority is unlikely to become one. None of the other Arab countries are. Why would anyone rationally not expect Canada to be "pro-Israel" for that very reason? Any other policy is a perversion.

How must all this affect the largely assimilated or becoming assimilated Arab-Canadian community? Here they are, having adopted Canada as their home, many second and third generation, having accepted Canadian ideas of fairness and balance, and yes uncertainty, and thinking Canadian thoughts-'I just don't understand how to solve a problem like this-oh well I hope they work something out-to hell with them all'etc- and they are told they must be 'pro-Israeli' to be decent. Not good. Perhaps not intended, but not good.

Well, they got themselves into a mess. It will be interesting to see how they get themselves out of it, if they can.

Until Canadians can remember how to speak at least to one another, about things which they consider important, debate in this country will be a sorry spectacle.

These "assimilated Arabs" knew they were coming to a Western, English-speaking democracy when they came to Canada. If they don't like Canadian (or US) conditions, they have a very Canadian freedom; the right to leave.

The same could be said for Scottish-Canadians, I suppose, and it would still not be an answer. You might find it helpful. if you read what I said, jbg.

[August1991]

Nothing I can see justifies abandoning the traditional, slack-jawed, moderate and uncertain, attempts to be fair and see things in a neutral way, from both sides, characteristic of Canada, at least up to now.

OMG.

rover1, you must put together some money and buy an airplane ticket to Paris or Rome. Then go to a Commonwealth War Cemetery or two. I have done it in Sri Lanka, Crete, France and even Florence, Italy - to name some countries and cities.

Canadians should take pride in their strong defence of western principles. As an ignorant, naive Canadian, I was taken to a war memorial on the western coast of France where a bomber fell into a farmer's field. The French have posted photos of the anglophone airmen. In Holland, I was invited into people's homes.

Older, I took Germans and Russians to see how Canadians treat their war dead. Once accused of being a fascist in Bulgaria, I explained that Canadians died to fight the Nazis - while Bulgarians collaborated. "Why did young Canadian men die so far from home", I have asked too often. I have even been to the Newfoundland places and small Ontario towns where these young men came from. Vimy Ridge is daunting like the Mont Royal or a climb up to the Alberta legislature from the river. I walked around Beaumont-Hamel and was impressed by its small size. (All Canadians should do this and see the Caribou.) So many young men died so quickly.

By making such references, I fear that I'll sound like Ignatieff. Well, I'm not turning my personal experience into a political career.

Once upon a time, Canadians stood up for justice. The Montreal policeman who shot the psychopath at Dawson College did the same. Canadians are not UN peacekeepers. Canadians have fought to defend civilized liberty - peace, order and good government.

Mulroney said it best: Canadians have earned our place at the table. We have no reason to be shy.

[rover1]

Nothing I can see justifies abandoning the traditional, slack-jawed, moderate and uncertain, attempts to be fair and see things in a neutral way, from both sides, characteristic of Canada, at least up to now.

OMG.

rover1, you must put together some money and buy an airplane ticket to Paris or Rome. Then go to a Commonwealth War Cemetery or two. I have done it in Sri Lanka, Crete, France and even Florence, Italy - to name some countries and cities.

Canadians should take pride in their strong defence of western principles. As an ignorant, naive Canadian, I was taken to a war memorial on the western coast of France where a bomber fell into a farmer's field. The French have posted photos of the anglophone airmen. In Holland, I was invited into people's homes.

Once upon a time, Canadians stood up for justice. The Montreal policeman who shot the psychopath at Dawson College did the same. Canadians are not UN peacekeepers. Canadians have fought to defend civilized liberty - peace, order and good government.

Mulroney said it best: Canadians have earned our place at the table. We have no reason to be shy.

Couldn't agree with you more, 1991. I too have been warmly greeted especially in Holland, because of these valliant deeds.

[Figleaf]

Canada is a Western democracy, as is the US, Australia, ... Would one doubt that Canada is, for example, "pro-Australian" or even question it. Israel is a Western democracy ... Why would anyone rationally not expect Canada to be "pro-Israel" for that very reason?

1. Israel only imperfectly accords with so-called western democracy. It is founded a principle of ethnic/religious exclusivity, and it has significant internal policies which favor or disfavor persons on those bases. Moreover, it continues to act in defiance of the rule of international law espoused by the west.

2. Irrespective of similiarity or friendship, to be honest and ethical one cannot support a friend in commiting wrongful deeds.

3. A friend who expects another friend to follow her into cruelty, destruction and folly is not much of a friend.