Them thar is Nazi's!

[Shakeyhands]

I originally posted this in the "Harper hates people who want to stop the spread of AIDs" thread or whatever it was called But I thought it deserved its own discussion given the statment today by Kenney

Harper didn't attend for the same reason that the CPC MP who was scheduled to go visit the Middle East dropped out, don't want to anger their base or the Americans. Simple.

Tory MP pulls out of Tour

Ahhhhhhh.... this explains it...

Nazi's??? Just like em....

So... according to the first article...

“They don’t object to the trip, they don’t object to the initiatives of the trip, they don’t object to the agenda of the trip, it’s just the timing of the trip.

“It’s not the best time for that type of agenda I suppose. I’m going to respect their opinion.”

It was a timing issue or a security issue or whater.. OHHHH WAIT!!! It was a NAZI issue... puuuhlease.

What is the real reason?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand discuss.

[Hydraboss]

What do you want to discuss? NO government official from ANY country should be discussing ANYTHING with a terrorist organization. If you treat them with the niceties with which you treat any foriegn diplomat, you DO lend credibility to them. I would not want Canada negotiating or even speaking with anyone from Alkeida, so by the same token I do not want anyone from our government speaking with Hezbollah.

As for cancelling the trip, maybe there actually is a security concern due to the only recent cease fire. Don't know, and probably never will. The government may have intelligence information that they are not making public, but then why didn't they share it with the all-party committee? I highly doubt we will ever be given the real reason.

Concerning the Nazi comment, I can see where they would draw a comparison but I think it went too far. While their intentions are right on par as concerning the Israelis, I am not aware of any manifest destiny to take over the world. They're just not that smart.

[Wilber]

“If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

Hassan Nesrallah

Sounds like something Hitler might have said. Wait a minute, I think he did, or words to that effect.

[Hydraboss]

“If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

Hassan Nesrallah

Sounds like something Hitler might have said. Wait a minute, I think he did, or words to that effect.

But does the terrorist have a "plan" to committ genocide? I'm not sure I can be convinced of it. Hitler did not just send the odd bomb or kidnap a couple of people. He had a (twisted) purpose and a definite plan to execute it. These terrorists are disorganized and stupid.

[Argus]

“If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

Hassan Nesrallah

Sounds like something Hitler might have said. Wait a minute, I think he did, or words to that effect.

He also said "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

Yes, I don't wonder at the comparisons between the Nazis and Hezbollah. Obviously Hezbollah has considerably less ability to carry out the genocide it longs for, but that does not make them any less dispicable and barbaric.

What was the purpose for going? So that their Hezbollah handlers could show them around rubble and sobbing women and get them to say bad things about Israel? I can't think of any other reason.

[Argus]

“If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

Hassan Nesrallah

Sounds like something Hitler might have said. Wait a minute, I think he did, or words to that effect.

But does the terrorist have a "plan" to committ genocide? I'm not sure I can be convinced of it. Hitler did not just send the odd bomb or kidnap a couple of people. He had a (twisted) purpose and a definite plan to execute it. These terrorists are disorganized and stupid.

Their plans are to take over Arab nations and then launch a jihad against Israel. Hezbollah, in particular, wants to get control of Lebanon. What would that mean for Israel and the chance of peace? Nothing good.

[Wilber]

But does the terrorist have a "plan" to committ genocide? I'm not sure I can be convinced of it. Hitler did not just send the odd bomb or kidnap a couple of people. He had a (twisted) purpose and a definite plan to execute it. These terrorists are disorganized and stupid.

Why else would he refer to going after them worldwide?

[jbg]

“If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

Hassan Nesrallah

Sounds like something Hitler might have said. Wait a minute, I think he did, or words to that effect.

In many people's books, that's an invitation to negotiations.

Seriously, why in anyone's right mind would anyone pressure Israel or any other country to engage in "negotiations" with that kind of entity?

[WestViking]

But does the terrorist have a "plan" to committ genocide? I'm not sure I can be convinced of it. Hitler did not just send the odd bomb or kidnap a couple of people. He had a (twisted) purpose and a definite plan to execute it. These terrorists are disorganized and stupid.

Why else would he refer to going after them worldwide?

Part of the terrorist patter - we can get you anywhere - you cannot hide from us - be afraid, be very afraid.

[Wilber]

But does the terrorist have a "plan" to committ genocide? I'm not sure I can be convinced of it. Hitler did not just send the odd bomb or kidnap a couple of people. He had a (twisted) purpose and a definite plan to execute it. These terrorists are disorganized and stupid.

Why else would he refer to going after them worldwide?

Part of the terrorist patter - we can get you anywhere - you cannot hide from us - be afraid, be very afraid.

Maybe so, maybe not. They said the same about Hitler and 12 years after he came to power there were 50 million dead. So take them at face value and act accordingly.

[scribblet]

Now that NDP, and Alexia McDonnough think that Harper should have taken a 'more neutral' position on the Isreali-Hezbolla confrontation, and these MPs think we should negotiate with terrorists my question is this:

*What exactly is a neutral position between a self-assembled group of thugs, mugs, and savages, whose sole mission is the destruction of the State of Israel, and that nation's inherent and self evident right to defend itself?

*And how is it that the NDP can condone the actions of Hezbollah whose intent is the extermination of Jews (because that's what you really mean when you call for the destruction of a State; that you want to kill everyone in it - (.e.. genocide) while at the same time flailing out at any rightwing politician as a Nazi? I don't recall conservatives ever calling for the destruction of a state or the genocide of its peoples.

Shouldn't someone in the media be demanding to know whether or not the NDP believes in Israel's right to exist. If their answer is 'No', then aren't they condoning the genocide of the Jewish people? Are they not then Nazis?

Jason Kenney was quoted saying basically the same thing, that the NDP must support terrorism and genocide - Nice to see Jason still calls a spade a spade - its about time.

[Shakeyhands]

I think the idea was, don't throw support blindly to any one side, and certainly remember that talking is always a better alternative to killing.

[Rue]

What do you want to discuss? NO government official from ANY country should be discussing ANYTHING with a terrorist organization. If you treat them with the niceties with which you treat any foriegn diplomat, you DO lend credibility to them. I would not want Canada negotiating or even speaking with anyone from Alkeida, so by the same token I do not want anyone from our government speaking with Hezbollah.

As for cancelling the trip, maybe there actually is a security concern due to the only recent cease fire. Don't know, and probably never will. The government may have intelligence information that they are not making public, but then why didn't they share it with the all-party committee? I highly doubt we will ever be given the real reason.

Concerning the Nazi comment, I can see where they would draw a comparison but I think it went too far. While their intentions are right on par as concerning the Israelis, I am not aware of any manifest destiny to take over the world. They're just not that smart.

Uh they may not be that smart but if in fact you read their manifesto and articles from their spiritual leaders they do actually want to see that the world is fundamentalist Shiite Muslim and that religion and state are not seperated and that in their philosophy, spreading world-wide is only natural.

Now I suppose for Star Trek fans Hezbollah could have been referred to as Borgs instead of Nazis but the fact is they use the same genocidal references as Nazis so if the shoe fits...of if it walks and talks like a duck...etc.

[Rue]

I think the idea was, don't throw support blindly to any one side, and certainly remember that talking is always a better alternative to killing.

No that was not what was said. You may want to spin it that way but that was not what was originally said. What was said was that Israel was responsible for state terrorism and that Hezbollah are considered heroes by Lebanese. What was also said is that since the Lebanese people support them, they should be talked to.

Now what you don't seem to understand probably because you live in Canada and have never survived a terrorist attack or witnessed one or ever read Hezbollah's manifesto and memorandums or spoken with its officials is that it has nothing but contempt for you-yes you and all your touchy feely, lets talk and understand one another feelings and if given the chance would think nothing of killing you.

No these are not cuddly little misunderstood creatures who only react when those sinister Zionists insist on living in the Middle East. Hezbollah is a terrorist group... let me spell that out for you...T E R R O R I S T

group. This means they do not want or believe in peace with Israel and if you take the time to read their literature are at war not just with Israel or Jews but with you and all your Western values and everything that you take for granted and assume they would have no problems with.

These are people who believe in a Shiite Muslim state with no seperation between religion and state and who want clerical councils ruling the country, women covered up, and laws imposed through clerics.

They want this world-wide and no they do not want to talk with you or could care less what you think of them. They will manipulate naive fools such as yourself as a propaganda tool while laughing at you behind your back so may I kindly suggest you not try spin the naivite of these MP's. They went into Lebanon on a propaganda tour designed to sucker them in and they were suckered.

No one is blindly supporting Israel simply because they say it makes no sense to negotiate with terrorists. The moment you send a terrorist a signal you will talk with them-all you do is empower them to keep commiting more terror.

The way to deal with a terrorist is simple-you insist that before you will talk with them, they MUST renounce violence and give up their weapons and in the case of Hezbollah delete their genocidal references to Jews and Israel.

And no they are not just angry with Jews or silly Zionists and no one else and if we make nice they will go away. They are a cancer that is spreading and its only a matter of time until they blow up something close to you and suddenly you too will not think talking with them is too bright an idea.

No terrorist can be spoken to and please understand this-do not understimate Israel-if there are people they need to talk to in Lebanon or elsewhere, they have their way of talking with them discretely-in this case however Hezbollah and Hamas and Jihad and Amal and all these other lovely boys cout groups have made it clear to their people they believe in genocide and will not stop until it is achieved. You want to play with people like this you will be burned.

[Rue]

“If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

Hassan Nesrallah

Sounds like something Hitler might have said. Wait a minute, I think he did, or words to that effect.

But does the terrorist have a "plan" to committ genocide? I'm not sure I can be convinced of it. Hitler did not just send the odd bomb or kidnap a couple of people. He had a (twisted) purpose and a definite plan to execute it. These terrorists are disorganized and stupid.

Do not refer to Hezbollah as stupid. Please read up on them. They are anything but stupid. Hezbollah are made up of university graduates...men with training in sciences, engineering, medicine, Muslim literature. They are not all savages. In fact many are highly educated in their society. They are also far from disorganized. Their operations are the epitome of high efficiency. They have developed a hybrid organizational style which mixes Maoist guerilla warfare, Viet Cong Warfare and organizational structure once made famous by the FLN in Algeria who defeated the French.

Hezbollah's command structure and grass-roots organization including multi-national corporations and shell companies is elaborate. This is not a bunch of hillbillies. Please read up on them and if nothing else understand that these are not stupid people. These people are as intelligent and as well organized as it gets.More to the point they are fueled by their dogma and belief in fundamentalist Shiite Islam not coruption.

There is nothing more dangerous then a group of men who believes God gives them the right to kill and that is precisely what Hezbollah is.

[AndrewL]

Concerning the Nazi comment, I can see where they would draw a comparison but I think it went too far. While their intentions are right on par as concerning the Israelis, I am not aware of any manifest destiny to take over the world. They're just not that smart.

Well, Israel can be compared more directly to the Nazis. (It would still be false, but it actually makes more sense).

Israel is an expansionist state, like Nazi germany. It displaces people in order to creeate room for a state that must

be Jewish in Character. This is comparable to the nazi idea of a pure aryan race that could not accomodate competing races. Jews, likewise, cannot accomodate competing religions for fear of losing their jewish character, this is why they will not allow refugees the legal right of return, and insist on religious colonialists from the west emigrating to illegal Jewish settlements on stolen land. Jews are not Nazis, but they fit the definition more aptly than does Hezbollah.

Kenny's comments are dishonest, and typical of low-brow uneducated conservatism. Hezbollah is no more a terrorist organization than Israel. And regardless of what westerners beleive, the perception of the people in the ME is that Hezbollah is a resistance movement that is responsible for ending the Israeli occupation of lebanon. All Canada is doing by saying these things is alienating the common arab, and cheapening the horror of the holocaust. Im surprised the Jewish lobby groups are not angry at the abuse of the language, and the cheapening of their own suffering. These are not smart comments to make.

Hezbollahs tactics are not in anyway disimilar to that of Israel. Israel kidnaps civilians and puts them in torture prisons without any trial, never to be heard from again. Hezbollah merely captures soldiers. Israel kills civilians and destroys their homes and businesses in order to punish them for supporting Hezbollah, Hezbollah launches rockets against Israeli civilians in order to punish them for supporting zionism, illegal settlements, and the occupation of stolen lands. (i dont like either strategy, but i cannot put Israel on a pedestal of any great moral superiority, they behave identical to the most common definitions of terrorism, as do most powerful governments, the US being the #1 terrorist state in existence based on common definitions of what terrorism is).

There is absolutely no comparison of Hezbollah to the Nazis. Hezbollah calls for the elimination of the zionist entity, (contrary to popular western stupidity, the terms Zionist entity and Israeli state are not synonymous). Zionist entity refers to the idea, in the mind of many arabs, that the Israeli state has a goal of expanding the borders of israel by increased settlement activity and by refusing to allow for the creation of a palestinian state. (regardless of pathetic israeli platitudes in support of a two state solution). Given this conception of Zionism, (i.e. zionist entity does not equal israeli state, zionist does not equal jew) I also support the elimination of the 'zionist entity' in so far as it is an aggressive and violent force bent on expansion, based on religion. This is no different than me calling for the elimination of al-qaeda, which is likewise bent on islamic expansion through violence and terror.

I knew when the conservatives took power in Canada I would have to be subjected to these asinine statements from ignorant rural bumpkins of the conservative base. Whats even worse is one day we have Bush calling them islamo-fascists (obvious nazi reference) and a few days later the canucks are making the nazi comparison as well. Im sure they are in cahoots on this nonsense. It is shocking to me that intellectually challenged canadians might latch on to this and actually go forth believing we are in an epic battle against nazis. Politicians just use these terms to gain political capital, and if they can paint the image that we are fighting nazis im sure the typical National Post readership will believe it. This is sad. I used to love this country, but as every day goes by i lose more and more respect for Canadas position in the world.

Andrew

[Hydraboss]

Andrew, that is a lot of bullshit in such a small amount of space.

I hope you enjoy your stay in Never-Never Land. Try the veal.

Signed,

Ignorant Rural Bumpkin

[AndrewL]

Andrew, that is a lot of bullshit in such a small amount of space.

I hope you enjoy your stay in Never-Never Land. Try the veal.

Signed,

Ignorant Rural Bumpkin

Great argument. What didnt you like, was there some factual errors or something? Oh I know, it chellenged too directly your western conditioning to believe everything the government tells you, as if they are honest or honorable people. Or perhaps you just feel that Israel can do no wrong, they are above criticism? what is it... or are you indeed happy with your role as ingnorant country bumpkin?

Andrew

[Wilber]

Hezbollah does not represent a country, it represents itself and the states to which it owes it's support, Iran and Syria. It therefore does not have to accept the responsibilities that go along with being the legitimate government of a country. I can't fathom why so many people think it should be treated as one.

If Hezbollah can give financial aid to the people of Lebanon to rebuild, you know damn well where the money is coming from. If Syria and Iran really want to help the Lebanese people, why don't they do it through Lebanon's legitimate government instead of through their own proxy army which they maintain on someone else's soil?

[Hydraboss]

Andrew, do you actually believe that anyone cares if we "alienate the common arab"? I believe that the vast majority of Canadians couldn't care less one way or the other about arab beliefs or governments. BUT WE DO NOT LIKE TERRORISM. Your statements, which call Israeli Jews terrorists, say so matter-of-factly that Israeli's "...kidnaps civilians and puts them in torture prisons without any trial, never to be heard from again. Hezbollah merely captures soldiers. Israel kills civilians...", and then calls people from other geographical locations of your own country "ignorant rural bumpkins" and subject to "western conditioning".

Your statements lead me to believe that perhaps you should move to Lebanon and join the Hezbollah, since you harbour such strong feelings of support for their good and righteous ways. Defenders of the faith, protectors of the innocent, and all that.

By the way, your crying because your beloved Liberals got booted out sounds like sour grapes to many of us, but the anti-conservative tone in a thread aimed at middle east events proves your childishness. Why don't you paint an anti-Bush, anti-conservative, anti-Jew sign and go join a rally.

[Riverwind]

Oh I know, it challenged too directly your western conditioning to believe everything the government tells you, as if they are honest or honorable people. Or perhaps you just feel that Israel can do no wrong, they are above criticism?

For starters there is a huge difference between legitimate criticism of Israel for excessive use of force and misguided policies regarding collective punishment and the hate mongering rant that you posted.

It is fair to question the wisdom of the UN partition plan in 1948, however, you must recognize that Israel exists today and has a right to continue to exist no matter what injustices may have occurred when it was created - this is one of the founding principles of the UN. Therefore, there can be no reasonable discussion with any group or person that refuses to acknowledge this.

Furthermore, Israel is a democratic state in a region with no other democracies. For that reason alone, it makes more sense to support the continued existence of Israel as a state. However, supporting Israel as a state does not mean that it has to keep all of the land that it has now. That said, it is pointless to even ask that Israel give up land as long as groups like Hezbollah are out there calling for the complete destruction of Israel.

[AndrewL]

Oh I know, it challenged too directly your western conditioning to believe everything the government tells you, as if they are honest or honorable people. Or perhaps you just feel that Israel can do no wrong, they are above criticism?

For starters there is a huge difference between legitimate criticism of Israel for excessive use of force and misguided policies regarding collective punishment and the hate mongering rant that you posted.

Please point out the hate mongering? I fully disclosed in my post that i dont like comparisons to Nazis, jews or Hezbollah. I was just showing how easy it is to make the same nazi comparisons to jews as it is for Hezbollah.

It is fair to question the wisdom of the UN partition plan in 1948, however, you must recognize that Israel exists today and has a right to continue to exist no matter what injustices may have occurred when it was created - this is one of the founding principles of the UN. Therefore, there can be no reasonable discussion with any group or person that refuses to acknowledge this.

I have seen no evidence that Hezbollah refuses to acknowledge this. I already pointed out the difference between Zionist entity and Jewish/Israeli state. Why do you ignore that?

Furthermore, Israel is a democratic state in a region with no other democracies. For that reason alone, it makes more sense to support the continued existence of Israel as a state. However, supporting Israel as a state does not mean that it has to keep all of the land that it has now. That said, it is pointless to even ask that Israel give up land as long as groups like Hezbollah are out there calling for the complete destruction of Israel.

It is debatable as to whether or not Hezbollah is currently callig for the complete destruction of Israel. There is a difference between Zionist and Jew that people in the west refuse to acknowledge, and it does not help that our newspapers conveniently translate zionist entity as Israeli state. That is false. (It is like considering all americans to be neo-conservatives)

Here is some what Hezbollah has published as their electoral progarm in '96 in reference to zionist and Israel.

We will work on the strong and efficient continuation of the Resistance until our occupied land is completely liberated and restored to the national sovereignty, until our people in the occupied strip are released and able to secure a free honorable decent living away from any direct or indirect presence of the usurping Zionists. We will also work on confronting the logic of the theatrical negotiations that seek to establish Israel's position at the expense of the people of the land.

The state's role in the economical operation must be based on a delicate harmonization between the necessity of activating the public sector, prosperity of its movement and investments, on one hand, and the necessity of not deserting the state's responsibilities towards the citizens and the public utilities, especially what concerns supporting the steadfastness of the areas confronting the Zionist occupation.

- To work on cementing the Lebanese stand in the face of the American pressure policies which are being practiced against Lebanon politically and economically, to reject the continuous American interference in its internal affairs and to deal with the American policy on the grounds of its being identical to and supportive for the positions of the Israeli enemy that occupies our land, kills our children and targets our villages with its incessant daily aggressions.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/320/3...h-platform.html

I could not find anywhere where their platform of '96 calls for the total destruction of the Israeli state. I know of the 1985 document that does call for the elimination of the zionist entity. But the 96 document is what is published on their websites, not the 85 document.

When you repeat such things as 'Hezbollah calls for the destruction of the israeli state', you are obviously just repeating misinformation offered by very dishonest and lazy people in the governemnt and the mainstream media.

As long as israel continues to build settlements she is expanding the borders of her state (zionism), if the world community will not use force against Israel to stop this, i cannot fault actors in the ME from attacking Israel, (using the same tactics of collective punishment that Israel uses). Resistance to Israeli kidnappings and assasinations, and the occupation of the Shebaa Frams, Golan Heights, Gaza, and West Bank, is entirely legitimate.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Hezbollah does not represent a country, it represents itself and the states to which it owes it's support, Iran and Syria. It therefore does not have to accept the responsibilities that go along with being the legitimate government of a country. I can't fathom why so many people think it should be treated as one.

Same with the governemnt in aghanistan and iraq. They do not exist without the support of america. Therefore they are not legitimate by your logic. You want to talk about militant proxy forces? How about the KLA terrorists in kosovo who were our friends?, or all the torturous murderers the west has supported in latin america? How about the islamic 'freedom fighters' in Afghanistan? Ohh i get it, its bad when its them, but its good when it us..... I dont accept that.

If Hezbollah can give financial aid to the people of Lebanon to rebuild, you know damn well where the money is coming from. If Syria and Iran really want to help the Lebanese people, why don't they do it through Lebanon's legitimate government instead of through their own proxy army which they maintain on someone else's soil?

Because the lebanese government does not have the ability to be as effective with the aid money. Hezbollah has pretty much cornered this market. I guarantee if this money was filtered through a modern bureacracy most of it would be used for bribes, hookers, and other typical politician like activities.

Andrew

[Wilber]

If Hezbollah can give financial aid to the people of Lebanon to rebuild, you know damn well where the money is coming from. If Syria and Iran really want to help the Lebanese people, why don't they do it through Lebanon's legitimate government instead of through their own proxy army which they maintain on someone else's soil?

Because the lebanese government does not have the ability to be as effective with the aid money. Hezbollah has pretty much cornered this market. I guarantee if this money was filtered through a modern bureacracy most of it would be used for bribes, hookers, and other typical politician like activities.

Andrew

Of course the people of Lebanon are to stupid and corrupt to elect a government that can be supported with international aid. Much better to give it to a foreign sponsored terrorist organization who is responsible to no one. What a condescending, arrogant attitude. Of course every penny will be spent on aid but not a nickel on arms because Hezbollah will submit to an independent audit at the end of the year. Man oh man, what are you on?

[AndrewL]

Andrew, do you actually believe that anyone cares if we "alienate the common arab"? I believe that the vast majority of Canadians couldn't care less one way or the other about arab beliefs or governments. BUT WE DO NOT LIKE TERRORISM. Your statements, which call Israeli Jews terrorists, say so matter-of-factly that Israeli's "...kidnaps civilians and puts them in torture prisons without any trial, never to be heard from again. Hezbollah merely captures soldiers. Israel kills civilians...", and then calls people from other geographical locations of your own country "ignorant rural bumpkins" and subject to "western conditioning".

Yes. We should certainly care about the hearts and minds. Israelis/jews living in Israel proper are not terrorists, but the actions of their government could certainly be considered terrorism.

And the actions of settlers are absolutely terrorism. Im not saying there is no terror perpetrated against jews though.

Your statements lead me to believe that perhaps you should move to Lebanon and join the Hezbollah, since you harbour such strong feelings of support for their good and righteous ways. Defenders of the faith, protectors of the innocent, and all that.

I didnt know living with the lebanese was a requirement for me to criticize Israel. Perhaps if you love the state of Israel so much you should convert to a jew and move to a settlement and steal someone else's land?

By the way, your crying because your beloved Liberals got booted out sounds like sour grapes to many of us, but the anti-conservative tone in a thread aimed at middle east events proves your childishness. Why don't you paint an anti-Bush, anti-conservative, anti-Jew sign and go join a rally.

Ahh yes. And now your partisan hackery comes out. I dont deny that i dislike the Harper neo-conservatives, but please, their faults are just the same old faults of all other politicians before them. My dislike of them has little to do with my label as a 'liberal', whatever the fuck that means in domestic politics anymore. Paul Martin was not someone I respected either.

Andrew