Teacher's Strike In Ontario

[Hicksey]

Should teachers be allowed to strike during the school year? Should the government be able to lock teachers out during the school year?

I don't think so. I think the students ought to come first.

Don't mistake this for anti-union rhetoric. I'm not trying to take all the bargaining power away from teachers by removing their right to withhold services. What I am advocating is a law that prevents either teachers or the government from interrupting an ongoing school year with a strike or any other labour strife. The teachers would still be allowed to delay the start of a school year with a strike.

What's your take?

[geoffrey]

It's clearly an essiential service. I think students should be able to sue for lost wages if teachers go on strike (which they might be able to).

Not to mention, the cost to society is massive. Parents scrambling to find day spots for their elementary school kids is a major issue for one.

Teacher's are professionals, and professionals don't strike. I have yet to see why anyone deserves an across the board raise above inflation.

[Hydraboss]

"Don't mistake this for anti-union rhetoric." It is. On my part.

Teachers deserve NOTHING in the way of raises, or even right to strike until they agree to performance evaluations. Anyone with younger kids (elementary level) should take a close look at what teachers supply for the salaries they receive. Take a really close look.

A teacher's position should be essential, but all it really is is daycare. Am I sour about teachers in general? Yep, and due to experience.

[Hicksey]

"Don't mistake this for anti-union rhetoric." It is. On my part.

Teachers deserve NOTHING in the way of raises, or even right to strike until they agree to performance evaluations. Anyone with younger kids (elementary level) should take a close look at what teachers supply for the salaries they receive. Take a really close look.

A teacher's position should be essential, but all it really is is daycare. Am I sour about teachers in general? Yep, and due to experience.

Its sad that of all the teachers we have most can usually count the good ones on one hand.

I'm with you on performance evaluations.

[stignasty]

Its sad that of all the teachers we have most can usually count the good ones on one hand.

I'm with you on performance evaluations.

I couldn't disagree more. The vast majority of teachers are hard working, caring people who go out of their way to do what is best for the students.

What criteria do you suggest using to evaluate teachers based on performance?

[Hydraboss]

Its sad that of all the teachers we have most can usually count the good ones on one hand.

I'm with you on performance evaluations.

I couldn't disagree more. The vast majority of teachers are hard working, caring people who go out of their way to do what is best for the students.

What criteria do you suggest using to evaluate teachers based on performance?

As with you, I couldn't disagree more. With you. The vast majority of teachers that I have come in contact with (this includes my wife's family...almost all teachers and her father has been a principal for over 40 years) are extremely overpaid, underworked, lazy and couldn't give a rat's a** about the kids they teach. Ask me how well family get-togethers go with her family.

There are two issues here: Teacher compensation and its relationship to their performance, and teaching as a profession being deemed an essential service. I believe this thread is intended to discuss the latter.

Should teaching be deemed essential? Yes.

As for the former issue? I would be happy to vent my total disgust with the members of this once-proud profession in the appropriate thread.

[geoffrey]

Hydra, you've got to pay for an essiential service...

I don't think teachers are overpaid... I also don't think teachers are underpaid. Is it a lazy job? Yup. Especially at the elementary level is just daycare with some additional teaching.

At the high school level though, its a whole different can of worms. Teachers actually need to know things at this level. Sadly, many do not. At the junior high/high school level, teachers should be paid based on results from standardized testing.

I haven't been too long out of high school so I can give a good example. Alberta has the hardest, most involved diploma testing in the country (and the most advanced secondary education system, Universities take us first). My Social Studies 30 (so Grade 12 Social Studies for you not familiar with the western system) teacher pulled off a class average of 90% on the final exam. That's so far beyond the standard of excellence, it was off the charts. The same semester, another teacher averaged 74%. Yet they get paid the same... why? One is obviously far better at his job (classes at my school were balanced by previous years grades and backgrounds so classes are pretty equal in capability).

The 74% was very acceptable, but obviously this teacher didn't display the excellent ability of my teacher.

Now I understand the argument that some teachers will get hurt financially in working in poor areas of town. Possibly. Thats why in certain designated 'problem schools', teachers get performance bonuses based on their classes IMPROVEMENT. It's brilliant.

With a financial motivator for teachers to work harder, our students will receive better education, and some pride will be restored to the teaching profession.

Not to mention good teachers will get paid more and the lazy teachers will fall off the wagon.

Seniority is the most dangerous concept of unions.

[August1991]

My Social Studies 30 (so Grade 12 Social Studies for you not familiar with the western system) teacher pulled off a class average of 90% on the final exam. That's so far beyond the standard of excellence, it was off the charts.

It appears that your teacher was good at preparing you for an exam, or more exactly, prepared you for the responses the examiners wanted.

Your teacher may have given you a good education too, but that's a separate question.

There are many types of computers available and no one would say that there is one good type. It depends what you intend to do with it.

The same principle applies with teachers, even moreso. People days deciding what house, car or computer to buy - finding one that is appropriate. But when it comes to teachers, it's almost pure chance. Strange.

[geoffrey]

My Social Studies 30 (so Grade 12 Social Studies for you not familiar with the western system) teacher pulled off a class average of 90% on the final exam. That's so far beyond the standard of excellence, it was off the charts.

It appears that your teacher was good at preparing you for an exam, or more exactly, prepared you for the responses the examiners wanted.

Your teacher may have given you a good education too, but that's a separate question.

There are many types of computers available and no one would say that there is one good type. It depends what you intend to do with it.

The same principle applies with teachers, even moreso. People days deciding what house, car or computer to buy - finding one that is appropriate. But when it comes to teachers, it's almost pure chance. Strange.

That's a good point, how to distinguish good exam prep people from good teachers. I'd be ok with a student review of the teachers like in universities, but realistically that probably wouldn't work in high school (or it might).

[na85]

At the junior high/high school level, teachers should be paid based on results from standardized testing.

I haven't been too long out of high school so I can give a good example. Alberta has the hardest, most involved diploma testing in the country (and the most advanced secondary education system, Universities take us first). My Social Studies 30 (so Grade 12 Social Studies for you not familiar with the western system) teacher pulled off a class average of 90% on the final exam. That's so far beyond the standard of excellence, it was off the charts. The same semester, another teacher averaged 74%. Yet they get paid the same... why? One is obviously far better at his job (classes at my school were balanced by previous years grades and backgrounds so classes are pretty equal in capability).

The 74% was very acceptable, but obviously this teacher didn't display the excellent ability of my teacher.

Now I understand the argument that some teachers will get hurt financially in working in poor areas of town. Possibly. Thats why in certain designated 'problem schools', teachers get performance bonuses based on their classes IMPROVEMENT. It's brilliant.

With a financial motivator for teachers to work harder, our students will receive better education, and some pride will be restored to the teaching profession.

Not to mention good teachers will get paid more and the lazy teachers will fall off the wagon.

Seniority is the most dangerous concept of unions.

I heartily agree with your point about seniority, however I take issue with the standardized testing and class performance forming the basis of pay.

If teachers were paid according to their classes' performance on a standardized test, you'd eventually start seeing teachers that "teach to the test". I've experienced this on more than one occasion.

Furthermore, with regards to your example about your social science class: It's possible that both teachers are of comparable skill and motivation, but that the teacher whose class received a lower average on the final had some students who did not try/study very hard. A handful of individuals in a class of 30 could easily drag an average down by 15 percent or so. Even if this was not the case in this particular example, should a teacher who happens to get "one of those classes" be paid less than a teacher who by chance receives a class of exceptionally gifted students?

[geoffrey]

Motivating the students is just one aspect of the teacher's job. The marks should be all equal coming from people in the same stream in the same socio-economic backgrounds.

[na85]

Not necessarily. How else would you account for people who are math-oriented, or music-oriented, but came from the same neighbourhood? I come from a well-off neighbourhood in a major city, and my two strengths are writing and mathematics.

My brother writes very poorly but at the same time is a piano genius. We both come from an identical socio-economic background, but our marks in an english course or a music course would differ greatly.

[Hydraboss]

How about paying teachers based on the amount of time they work?

I am on the Board Council at my kids school, and in late December we did the budget review. The teachers in my school will be working 180.5 days next year. They also removed the zero level salary to attract more teachers. The "most economical" teacher (their words, not mine) in that building makes just over $70k a year.

Lets do some basic math.

Average teacher....8:15am to 3:05pm (and I won't take away for lunches, etc), Monday to Friday, 180.5 days FDE (full day equivalent)=1263.5 hours annually.

$70,000/1263.5 hours = $55.40/hour

Average Canadian....9:00am to 5:00pm, Monday to Friday, two weeks holidays, 40 hours/week X 50 weeks

=2000 hours annually.

$55.40/hour X 2000 hours = $110,800 annualized salary

Who wants a raise for babysitting?

And PLEASE don't give me the "teachers put in SO much time after school and weekends doing marking, etc...". Newsflash, the kids in the school do their own marking, and teachers are leaving tire marks by 3:15.

[geoffrey]

Is this a private school or something?

Teachers start around $45k in Alberta. $70k is about 15 years seniority.

[Hydraboss]

Is this a private school or something?

Teachers start around $45k in Alberta. $70k is about 15 years seniority.

No, it's a public school. If you read into the collective agreements, you will see the wage schedules move up every year and those base step-level salary numbers do not include the additionals such as being involved in "board approved" activities. The idiot that teaches phys-ed gets $4210.00 extra for leading the kids ski team for twelve outings. And if they take on the Christmas concert, lunch supervision, etc...$$$$$$! I thought these types of statements were BS until I saw the last couple of budgets FROM THE SCHOOL BOARD. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I do the taxes for my inlaws, and I would be embarrased (for him) to tell you what the father-in-law makes as a principal. It should be called extortion.

[geoffrey]

Is this a private school or something?

Teachers start around $45k in Alberta. $70k is about 15 years seniority.

No, it's a public school. If you read into the collective agreements, you will see the wage schedules move up every year and those base step-level salary numbers do not include the additionals such as being involved in "board approved" activities. The idiot that teaches phys-ed gets $4210.00 extra for leading the kids ski team for twelve outings. And if they take on the Christmas concert, lunch supervision, etc...$$$$$$! I thought these types of statements were BS until I saw the last couple of budgets FROM THE SCHOOL BOARD. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I do the taxes for my inlaws, and I would be embarrased (for him) to tell you what the father-in-law makes as a principal. It should be called extortion.

Really, so they get paid for almost every extra duty they do?How do the work to rule campaigns make any sense then? None the less, its trouble.

[stignasty]

<snip>

$55.40/hour X 2000 hours = $110,800 annualized salary

Who wants a raise for babysitting?

And PLEASE don't give me the "teachers put in SO much time after school and weekends doing marking, etc...". Newsflash, the kids in the school do their own marking, and teachers are leaving tire marks by 3:15.

I am a teacher. I teach from 8:30 until 3:45. That is purely class time, the lessons do not plan themselves. In my first few years teaching I never finished my planning and marking before 9PM. I can now afford the luxury of watching a hockey game in the evening if I so please. In the summers I typically spend between 20 and 25 hours a week preparing for the coming school year and making changes due to new curriculum. A babysitter already probably makes more money an hour than a teacher.

Just using the Calgary board scale, a teacher with four years of university will never earn $70,000. To earn that much you need to have 7 years of university and 8 years of teaching experience. Collective agreement

Do I sound irritated? Well that's because I am. I have worked in accounting and in financial services for a lot more money than I'm earning now. I have also never worked as hard at anything. Yet I have to hear know-it-alls tell me that I'm lazy and overpaid. Through two years of subbing and 8 years teaching I have only met a handful of teachers that I would term uncaring and lazy.

[Hydraboss]

http://www.teachers.ab.ca/Salary+and+Benef...4+-+2006%29.htm

Hope that works. Link to Black Gold Regional ATA CBA.

Explain something to me. The kindergarten teacher at this school has been teaching the same course for 12 years. How much does the cirriculum change? Her course plan has not changed significantly in years. She does no marking. She is the "ECS Coordinator" and the Track and Field club.

According to the BGR CBA:

2 years ECS education

4 years B Ed

Top level at 11+ years experience

=$78142.00+$4210(Coordinator)=$82270.00 non-annualized=$130,225.56 annualized salary

And she's gone at 3:15 EVERY day.

edit: These are based on September 2005 numbers. She makes more now.

[Hydraboss]

<snip>

$55.40/hour X 2000 hours = $110,800 annualized salary

Who wants a raise for babysitting?

And PLEASE don't give me the "teachers put in SO much time after school and weekends doing marking, etc...". Newsflash, the kids in the school do their own marking, and teachers are leaving tire marks by 3:15.

I am a teacher. I teach from 8:30 until 3:45. That is purely class time, the lessons do not plan themselves. In my first few years teaching I never finished my planning and marking before 9PM. I can now afford the luxury of watching a hockey game in the evening if I so please. In the summers I typically spend between 20 and 25 hours a week preparing for the coming school year and making changes due to new curriculum. A babysitter already probably makes more money an hour than a teacher.

Just using the Calgary board scale, a teacher with four years of university will never earn $70,000. To earn that much you need to have 7 years of university and 8 years of teaching experience. Collective agreement

Do I sound irritated? Well that's because I am. I have worked in accounting and in financial services for a lot more money than I'm earning now. I have also never worked as hard at anything. Yet I have to hear know-it-alls tell me that I'm lazy and overpaid. Through two years of subbing and 8 years teaching I have only met a handful of teachers that I would term uncaring and lazy.

The biggest problem facing teachers, in my opinion, is that the lazy, overpaid idiots get all the press and seem to make the lasting impressions on parents. The good ones (and there are good ones) just do their job quietly and nobody notices. That is unfortunate. But I talk to teachers (I have to, I'm now related to them) and I get disgusted. The brother-in-law doesn't even like kids. He admits that he got into the field for the time off. And he's not the only one. They all seem to share the opinion that they are owed more money for less work.

Again...my kids school. The elementary students are dismissed for lunch at 12:05pm. They are kicked outside at 12:17pm. Not 12:20 or 12:21, 12:17 EXACTLY. That's not even enough time for kids to wash their hands before they eat. There was a major uproar from the parents about this. The school's reason? The teachers would not give up more of their time supervising kids. Not even if it put the kid's health in jeopardy (the washing hands thing). We (the Home and School Assoc) had to pay to bring in an outside person to supervise kids on the playground because it "wasn't the teachers job, and they weren't getting paid for it".

Do I sound irritated? That's because I am. I pay for these money-grubbing civil servants that do little, but whine lots.

[Hydraboss]

Is this a private school or something?

Teachers start around $45k in Alberta. $70k is about 15 years seniority.

No, it's a public school. If you read into the collective agreements, you will see the wage schedules move up every year and those base step-level salary numbers do not include the additionals such as being involved in "board approved" activities. The idiot that teaches phys-ed gets $4210.00 extra for leading the kids ski team for twelve outings. And if they take on the Christmas concert, lunch supervision, etc...$$$$$$! I thought these types of statements were BS until I saw the last couple of budgets FROM THE SCHOOL BOARD. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I do the taxes for my inlaws, and I would be embarrased (for him) to tell you what the father-in-law makes as a principal. It should be called extortion.

Really, so they get paid for almost every extra duty they do?How do the work to rule campaigns make any sense then? None the less, its trouble.

Work to rule simply means that they won't take part in ANY extra-curricular activities. Intramurals, ski trips, field trips, Christmas concerts, etc. The kids get punished. What do they care?

[Hydraboss]

<snip>

$55.40/hour X 2000 hours = $110,800 annualized salary

Who wants a raise for babysitting?

And PLEASE don't give me the "teachers put in SO much time after school and weekends doing marking, etc...". Newsflash, the kids in the school do their own marking, and teachers are leaving tire marks by 3:15.

I am a teacher. I teach from 8:30 until 3:45. That is purely class time, the lessons do not plan themselves. In my first few years teaching I never finished my planning and marking before 9PM. I can now afford the luxury of watching a hockey game in the evening if I so please. In the summers I typically spend between 20 and 25 hours a week preparing for the coming school year and making changes due to new curriculum. A babysitter already probably makes more money an hour than a teacher.

Just using the Calgary board scale, a teacher with four years of university will never earn $70,000. To earn that much you need to have 7 years of university and 8 years of teaching experience. Collective agreement

Do I sound irritated? Well that's because I am. I have worked in accounting and in financial services for a lot more money than I'm earning now. I have also never worked as hard at anything. Yet I have to hear know-it-alls tell me that I'm lazy and overpaid. Through two years of subbing and 8 years teaching I have only met a handful of teachers that I would term uncaring and lazy.

a teacher with four years of university will never earn $70,000.

From your link: Category D (four years education) 10 years teaching experience (150days/year or portion thereof)=$71749.00. 11 years teaching experience=$74683.00. Annualized salary of $118,216.06. Based on January 2007 Schedule.

Just for clarification from a know-it-all.

[fryingpan]

Should teachers be allowed to strike during the school year? Should the government be able to lock teachers out during the school year?

I don't think so. I think the students ought to come first.

Don't mistake this for anti-union rhetoric. I'm not trying to take all the bargaining power away from teachers by removing their right to withhold services. What I am advocating is a law that prevents either teachers or the government from interrupting an ongoing school year with a strike or any other labour strife. The teachers would still be allowed to delay the start of a school year with a strike.

What's your take?

Teachers should definitely not be allowed to strike. Especially college and university teachers. The students have to pay up front to get their services and have no way of knowing when/if teachers are going to strike.

<snip>

$55.40/hour X 2000 hours = $110,800 annualized salary

Who wants a raise for babysitting?

And PLEASE don't give me the "teachers put in SO much time after school and weekends doing marking, etc...". Newsflash, the kids in the school do their own marking, and teachers are leaving tire marks by 3:15.

I am a teacher. I teach from 8:30 until 3:45. That is purely class time, the lessons do not plan themselves. In my first few years teaching I never finished my planning and marking before 9PM. I can now afford the luxury of watching a hockey game in the evening if I so please. In the summers I typically spend between 20 and 25 hours a week preparing for the coming school year and making changes due to new curriculum. A babysitter already probably makes more money an hour than a teacher.

Just using the Calgary board scale, a teacher with four years of university will never earn $70,000. To earn that much you need to have 7 years of university and 8 years of teaching experience. Collective agreement

Do I sound irritated? Well that's because I am. I have worked in accounting and in financial services for a lot more money than I'm earning now. I have also never worked as hard at anything. Yet I have to hear know-it-alls tell me that I'm lazy and overpaid. Through two years of subbing and 8 years teaching I have only met a handful of teachers that I would term uncaring and lazy.

I had a teacher in my high school that would leave school before dismissal. The guy would leave the room 10 minutes early without saying why, 2 minutes later, he'd be walking by the classroom door with his coat on. This same teacher spent more time out of the class than he did in it.

[Hydraboss]

To all, I apologize for the hijack.

[geoffrey]

Wow, looking at that collective agreement, maybe I'll become a teacher.

[fryingpan]

Wow, looking at that collective agreement, maybe I'll become a teacher.

Yeah, no kidding. The college teachers on strike over here were offered 95K a year just to get them to go back to work. They turned it down, and they are still negotiating for a better deal.