Drop our illusions

[JerrySeinfeld]

Black Dog:

Watch this

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/feature_270403.html

and educate yourself. Drop your illusions of how you wish things were - ie. everything is America's fault.

This documentary gives first hand accounts with hidden cameras of EXACTLY what Al Qaeda wants and is about - and trust me, American foreign policy as very little or NOTHING to do with it.

[Black Dog]

Don't post BS links about how terrorism is the west's fault. We all know that's a lefty commentator CBC rip job by now. Come up with something a little more credible buddy.

Ahem: If you disagree with Pape, try to attack the argument.

This documentary gives first hand accounts with hidden cameras of EXACTLY what Al Qaeda wants and is about - and trust me, American foreign policy as very little or NOTHING to do with it.

Balls. Bin Laden himself has painted a picture of Islam in a defensive war against "Western/Zionist imperialism". Are you familiar with Michael Scheuer? He was he Chief of the bin Laden Unit at the CIA's Counterterrorist Center from 1996 to 1999. He's most definitely no "lefty" and even he sayss the islamists are not driven by hatred of ur freedoms but by very specific grievences such as support of Israel, support of tryannical ("apostate") Muslim regimes and support of countries that oppress Muslims (like Russia). All in all, it's a hell of a lot more credible than "they hate us for our freedoms".

[JerrySeinfeld]

Don't post BS links about how terrorism is the west's fault. We all know that's a lefty commentator CBC rip job by now. Come up with something a little more credible buddy.

Ahem: If you disagree with Pape, try to attack the argument.

This documentary gives first hand accounts with hidden cameras of EXACTLY what Al Qaeda wants and is about - and trust me, American foreign policy as very little or NOTHING to do with it.

Balls. Bin Laden himself has painted a picture of Islam in a defensive war against "Western/Zionist imperialism". Are you familiar with Michael Scheuer? He was he Chief of the bin Laden Unit at the CIA's Counterterrorist Center from 1996 to 1999. He's most definitely no "lefty" and even he sayss the islamists are not driven by hatred of ur freedoms but by very specific grievences such as support of Israel, support of tryannical ("apostate") Muslim regimes and support of countries that oppress Muslims (like Russia). All in all, it's a hell of a lot more credible than "they hate us for our freedoms".

Wrong. Muslims militants don't just want the west out of the middle east - they want to spread the word and establish muslim states in western countries - ie IMPERIALISM.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Steyn's main point is that there ARE moderate muslims but they acquiesce to the militants out of fear. Same as the germans in Nazi germany - most were just afraid to speak out.

Wasn't it Mark Steyn who said:

"The voice of reason is seldom as strident as that of anger or intolerance."

If he didn't he should have.

[Black Dog]

Wrong. Muslims militants don't just want the west out of the middle east - they want to spread the word and establish muslim states in western countries - ie IMPERIALISM.

And you're basing this one....what? 'cause it sure looks like you pulled it out of your ass. See, I hear a lot about re-establishing the Caliphate: they don't want to colonize Oshawa: they want their old empire back.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Wrong. Muslims militants don't just want the west out of the middle east - they want to spread the word and establish muslim states in western countries - ie IMPERIALISM.

And you're basing this one....what? 'cause it sure looks like you pulled it out of your ass. See, I hear a lot about re-establishing the Caliphate: they don't want to colonize Oshawa: they want their old empire back.

ummm.. the KORAN. heard of it?

also - if you'd watch the documentary on the passionate eye you'd see hidden camera fooqtage of many different cells of al qaeda all over europe talking about how France is "conquered terriroty" or their goals to establish sharia and muslim states in wetsren democracies. These are REAL muslim militants talking about this, not some left wing pundit like yourself assuring us all that this isn't the case and wishing - as always - that you could do your reflex finger pointing at Washington.

Watch the website footage of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi beheading Nick Berg - the website is entitled "Zarawi slaughters and INFIDEL". note it does not say he slaughters and AMERICAN or a WESTERNER.

[Black Dog]

ummm.. the KORAN. heard of it?

Yup. I also know there's no definitive interpretation of it anymore than there is of the Bible, which can alos be used to justify some crazy crap. Anyway, please cite the part of the Qu'ran where it says that islamists shall take over the west.

also - if you'd watch the documentary on the passionate eye you'd see hidden camera fooqtage of many different cells of al qaeda all over europe talking about how France is "conquered terriroty" or their goals to establish sharia and muslim states in wetsren democracies. These are REAL muslim militants talking about this, not some left wing pundit like yourself assuring us all that this isn't the case and wishing - as always - that you could do your reflex finger pointing at Washington.

All I'm reporting is what Usama bin Laden has already said. Again, there are probably a number of different interpretations of the islamist worldview. I'm going with that expressed by Al Qaeda's Big Cheese.

Watch the website footage of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi beheading Nick Berg - the website is entitled "Zarawi slaughters and INFIDEL". note it does not say he slaughters and AMERICAN or a WESTERNER.

Well, questions about the veracity of that particular tape aside, to a radical Islamist, every none Muslim (and even soem Muslims) are infidels. That doesn't really prove anything.

[JerrySeinfeld]

ummm.. the KORAN. heard of it?

Yup. I also know there's no definitive interpretation of it anymore than there is of the Bible, which can alos be used to justify some crazy crap. Anyway, please cite the part of the Qu'ran where it says that islamists shall take over the west.

also - if you'd watch the documentary on the passionate eye you'd see hidden camera fooqtage of many different cells of al qaeda all over europe talking about how France is "conquered terriroty" or their goals to establish sharia and muslim states in wetsren democracies. These are REAL muslim militants talking about this, not some left wing pundit like yourself assuring us all that this isn't the case and wishing - as always - that you could do your reflex finger pointing at Washington.

All I'm reporting is what Usama bin Laden has already said. Again, there are probably a number of different interpretations of the islamist worldview. I'm going with that expressed by Al Qaeda's Big Cheese.

Watch the website footage of Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi beheading Nick Berg - the website is entitled "Zarawi slaughters and INFIDEL". note it does not say he slaughters and AMERICAN or a WESTERNER.

Well, questions about the veracity of that particular tape aside, to a radical Islamist, every none Muslim (and even soem Muslims) are infidels. That doesn't really prove anything.

How about the Toronto muslim leader who said "the protests will not stop until the west obeys islamic law".

Dude eveidence of muslims trying to impose their views upon through violence and intimidation is on the nightly news.

What I'm asking you for is evidence to the contrary.

[theloniusfleabag]

How about the Toronto muslim leader who said "the protests will not stop until the west obeys islamic law".

That was a protester, not a 'leader'. Big, big difference.

What I'm asking you for is evidence to the contrary

Look up PocketRocket's last post.

[JerrySeinfeld]

How about the Toronto muslim leader who said "the protests will not stop until the west obeys islamic law".

That was a protester, not a 'leader'. Big, big difference.

ahhh - I see. must've been one of those "moderate muslims" everyone keeps telling me about.