Iraq And Al Qaeda - No Links You Say?

[Craig Read]

Fleabag, as a Canadian i find your ravings pathetic. Get off the board if you have nothing intelligent to say.

I quote you:

"With the US being trillions in debt, and their largest export being people playing 'make believe'"

Actually the US has a lower per capita debt [far lower] than Canada.

US gov't spend is 12% of GDP lower than Canada's.

US exports are lead by heavy manufacturing goods such as heavy equipment, airplanes and technology intensive goods such as computers, software and networking equipment.

The US accounts for over 40 % of world GDP and about the same of world high end manufacturing.

Services trade is important but not the major reason for US economic power.

The US is wealthier per capita than Canada and its GDP per person is $34k USD vs. $21 K in Canada.

Canada in fact is falling steadily behind in income and living standards, and its productivity rate is 1/2 of the US level in 2003 and consistently 1 % behind that of the US in the past 10 years.

For your income to double you need GDP growth per annum of 3%. It is apparent that Canada will have severe problems compared to the US in meeting such a target. High taxes, high debt, gov't interventionism and low productivity conspire to create a poorer society.

So the only thing small minds like yourself fall back on is racism. Instead of reform you insult and lie.

Slander is the chief weapon of the left - much easier than action or thinking.

Stop your moronic monologues and join in adding some value. If you can't - get lost.

[FastNed]

SirRiff, you had this to say:

not to get in the way of all this UN bashing while touching yourselves, but...

really - and exactly what is it that you are doing hiding in the bathroom with your list of anti-American propaganda? A little transference going on here?

Logical1 - as you have been too polite to emphasize, the content doesn't change no matter if you read fast or slow - but it was a 'nice' slur - which is par for the course from that particular source. I'm curious thou, how long does it take someone so logical to decide they are responding to a troll?

[nova_satori]

Craig Read : Do you believe that America doesn't deserve ANY of the hatred that is comming its way?

Nuclear: Who do you trust with a WMD more: A shrewed, brutal dicator, or a shoot first ask later, to hell with our orders, trigger happy president who needs an excuse to get the public's mind off the horrible economy?

And as my Philosophy teacher says, "When your argument is weak, INSULT SOMEONE!"

[logical1]

FastNed, I was giving Mr. Fleabag the benefit of the doubt in assuming he actually believes what he is saying. Although, his claims are in fact absurd, in my opinion they are no more absurd than the conservatives here who insist on advocating the presence, necessity and intervention of religious doctrines in government and people's lives. The same people who can not grasp that supernatural mysticism is supernatural mysticism by any name. The same people that object to Islamic theocracies (and rightly so) but refuse to recognize the contradictions, falsehoods and destructive values contained in their own religious doctrines and are thus left arguing the impossible position of "our religion is more valid than your religion". The same people who's religious doctrines(Christianity being the most prominant) emphasize self sacrifice as a virtue and advocate it's practice. The same people who allow this to remain as the greatest gift ever to liberals and socialists (which is, evidently the same gift that gave them their philosophical chokehold on our lives). The same people that have had no other choice but to allow the chokehold to remain in place and continue to fumble all over themselves confused about how to philosophically dispute the liberal's professed motive of working for "those in need" when the conservative's own religious principles hold that motive as a prominent virtue. The same people who can't seem to understand that they can never successfully loosen the liberal chokehold until they have adopted reason as their only guide. This is not exclusively aimed at you FastNed. The left is far from having a total monopoly on ignorance (although they are much closer to having one on blatent dishonesty). I have to try and remain at least a little tolerant of both. Believe it or not, I had a devout Baptist upbringing and used to be a very partisan Republican myself, but I refused to continue ignoring the facts of reality and the nature of how things really are and work. "Nature in order to be commanded must be obeyed."

[FastNed]

Hello, Logical1, it is a very nice arrow but I believe you have aimed it at the wrong target.

While I can be inconsistent three times before breakfast, I do not believe I have been so at least not in a major way on the subject of religion in our public lives.

The success of our North American version of Western Civilization has much of its basis in the concept of "Freedom" under a rule of law. As we practice this concept, you are free to believe in a particular 'flavor' of religion while I retain the freedom to believe you are involved in a primitive superstition which should have ended in the dark ages. Or I could be the superstitious one and v.v.. I have posted in or about two areas involving religion.

The question of the Ten Commandments display in Alabama can not be answered or reached until a very serious constitutional matter is resolved. Does Federal Law, authorized under Article I of the U.S, Constitution, apply to a religious display in a State building; did the 14th Amendment create such a power in the Federal government; and, does or could the State Constitution of Alabama pre-empt Federal action in this specific case?

Very technical but quite serious issues of Constitutional Law are involved and must be resolved prior to any decision on the specifics of this contentious issue. On the merits of religious freedom, I believe the issue has become so contentious that the Supreme Court can not continue to dodge the issue and will be forced to state an opinion on the question of freedom of vs freedom from religion in our public lives.

I have also posted on the concept of "Marriage" in the Gay threads and believe I have taken a "Live and let Live" position in that area.

This is a lengthy post which is going off topic so I'll stop here.

[KrustyKidd]

Craig Read : Do you believe that America doesn't deserve ANY of the hatred that is coming its way?

I don't like to answer for others but couldn't resist. Nobody is blameless for anything but you and your ilk continually heap unwarranted blame on the US as the world's source of evil. Are they responsible for starvation in Somalia at the hands of warlords? Disease and infacide in every third world country? By opening a trade corridor with a third world country so that they can earn money to purchase goods not made from roots - is that evil? Do you expect the Average American to simply work for nothing so some person on the other side of the planet can live a better life? Of course not. We work and invest money so that others can make things we would like to purchase in order to make our lives more enhanced. It's a simple formula that would work quite well except that .......

There are those who do not like their people to be better off. There are those who would steal the money intended for these programs and keep it for themselves. There are those that desire more than power over their own people and take money used to feed same and put it towards weapons to strike/intimidate and subjugate those in other nations. In short, there is a lot of true evil going on in this world besides the USA trying to buy something off of somebody at fair market value..

Nuclear: Who do you trust with a WMD more: A shrewed, brutal dicator, or a shoot first ask later, to hell with our orders, trigger happy president who needs an excuse to get the public's mind off the horrible economy?

I had to laugh at this one as in your next quote you say

And as my Philosophy teacher says, "When your argument is weak, INSULT SOMEONE!"

"Shoot first ask later hell with our orders trigger happy president?"

I wonder, an elected official with safeguards built in through congress and advisors and such or a megalomaniac who has been known to kill somebody simply for telling him he might be wrong. . Whom do you trust? OBL with a nuke, oh now there is a picture of stability. Are you serious that you would sleep better tonight knowing Hamas had a nuke?

As for getting people's minds off a horrible economy is that truly what you think? You think that Bush woke up one day and hung up his soul and found a thousand or so people to go in on some conspiracy with him to deflect attention from an economy? "Hey, Cheney. Here's a way we can look good. You don't mind going to hell for killing thousands of people do you? I know we've only been in office a year and cannot be blamed for the state of the economy anyhow but if we blow a couple hundred billion on some unnecessary war and kill hundreds or thousands we can make ourselves look not so bad."

Just wondering, in any of your theories did it ever occur to you that there is anybody on the planet other than the US government that might be a threat to you or anybody else?

[Craig Read]

KK, great answer. Security and the changing landscape indeed make Iraq and Afgh. #1 on the terror front.

Others will follow - but a smart dictum in life is FOCUS.

Focus on winning and converting these 2 countries first, then when that is stabilised take the next steps.

The US economy is now currently booming - 5 % growth for the rest of the year and surging business and capital investment. This means jobs jobs jobs starting in 04 and 05. I think the US is on the cusp of an economic boom that will mirror the mid 80s and late 90s.

They are back.

3.5 % GDP growth always means jobs. I bet that next year the US grows at 4 %.

Canada - about half that level.

[KrustyKidd]

Hey Craig, ever notice how lefties don't address just one thing? The argument is always a 45 gallon drum of monkeys thrown up in the air.

I wonder abut the economy. I'm not privy to any reports but know that where I sit it's booming. My trucks are rolling 3500 plus miles a week in cross border frieght. I'm sitting in Salt Lake city right now, I picked up a load of really essential survival stuff today - fitness equipment. Going to St Germaine PQ. Does that sound like an economy in it's death throes? I brought down a load of file cabinets to Denver for a new office building, guess that's another company with a severe cash crunch. When I start hauling firewood and turnips as my main bread and butter I'll start to worry. Everywhere I look here they're hiring, looking for drivers, owner operators, warehouse staff, factory workers. It reminds me of Alberta, you can find a job drunk in your underwear pretty much. As a businessman I'm sure you know that when times are good you don't mind spending to create equity and versatility. It's a fact that you will always have bills and with a good base you will always have income to cover those bills. You never get rich as you always re-invest It's not the stuff of Wall Street that makes this happen but people working. When I see luxury items being sold everywhere I take that as a sign that an economy has long scince passed being the depression era.

[nova_satori]

So you admit that America is no longer blameless?

Wow...that's the first right leaning person I've ever met who will actually admit that.

[Craig Read]

Yeah America is to blame chant the monkey Liberals.

This is why 55 % of Muslims want to leave their country and most would love to get to the USA.

This is why 40.000 Cdns each year flee to the US and less than 3.000 come the other way - most to get socialised ie. 'let others pay for it' rationed health care.

Yeah America is to blame with the world's 2nd highest standard of living, its $34 K per capita GDP and its increasing personal disposable income.

Yeah America is to blame for its deep capital markets, respect of private property and open public debate on any and all issues.

Yeah America is to blame for the complete collapse of marxian and Islamic dictatorships and their inability to provide a meaningful quality of life for their people.

Yeah America is to blame for the fact that the Saudi's and Iraqi's are incapable of even developing, refining and distributing their own oil resources.

And of course America is to blame for the fact that 50 % of Islamic women are illiterate.

Yeah i agree, America is to blame.

[nova_satori]

The simple fact that none of your proof has been brought to the world is testment that it's all false. Do you see any of it on the world's newspaper headlines? lo.

If it was true, then wouldn't the Bush Administration have broughten it long ago to the world scene? (this is a rhetorical question, everyone knows the answer, and it only has two letters.)

[KrustyKidd]

Hi Nova. To answer your question, the reason why is that it is common knowledge. Same reason as why the President does not hold press conferences to tell you that the sky is blue.

Here is a short unscientific poll I came across, there is many more (hit Iraqi Polls on Google).

What, though, do the people of Baghdad think of the Americans today, three months after they occupied their city? More people feel friendly (26 per cent) than hostile (18 per cent), but fully 50 per cent feel ?neither friendly nor hostile?.

We pressed the issue a little further: ?If you HAD to choose, would you rather live under Saddam or the Americans?? The good news is that very few want Saddam back ? just 7 per cent.

Yet there are signs of cautious optimism, especially about the long term. By almost three-to-one, Baghdadians expect life in one year?s time to be better (43 per cent) rather than worse (16 per cent) in one year?s time than it was before the war. Looking five years ahead, optimists outnumber pessimists by five to one (54-11 per cent).

By then, most people hope that the occupation will be over; but, despite the criticisms, fears and acute day-to-day problems, only 13 per cent want the Americans and British troops to leave immediately.

As many as 76 per cent want them to stay for the time being ? with a majority, 56 per cent, wanting them to remain for at least 12 months.

[nova_satori]

Hi Nova. To answer your question, the reason why is that it is common knowledge. Same reason as why the President does not hold press conferences to tell you that the sky is blue.

that can't be true. If any of that proof was true, people wouldn't be calling for the resignations of both Bush and Blair. And Bush wouldn't be facing a possible investigation. Also, the democrats wouldn't be hammering him on Iraq's failures.

[Craig Read]

Iraq's failures ?

Yes let's recount them:

-Ending of a fascist regime that murdered 250.000 people

-Rebuilding of a mangled oil infrastructure which the Iraqi's will own and help them prosper

-Creation of the first representative system in the country's history

-Pluralistic schools opened

-Markets starting to slowly function

-Iraqi's getting involved at all levels to rebuild a butchered nation

-Neighbouring countries safe

-Never again able to construct an arms program to threaten Western interests

-Ending of funding to terrorist groups

Yep huge failure that one. Life was better under Hussein.

I have to point out,that you are truly an incomprehensible clown.

[SirRiff]

Ending of a fascist regime that murdered 250.000 people

uh, the US has no credabilty on human rights. the US installed General Pinochet in Chile on Sept 11, 1973, who went on to kill tens of thousands of deaths without a peep from the US, in fact the CIA is implicated with drawing up lists of possible opposition leaders.

the US armed and trained osama and his crew and left them to run wild killing and raping in afganistan for 20 years- they walked away and never looked back.

the US supported saddam while he was gassing his own people and killing iranians for no reason.

so dont bring up that pathetic reasoning that americans care what happens to iraqis. most of them cant even point out many of these mentioned countries on a world map. all the examples above show americans dont know what thier gov does and dont care anyways.

Rebuilding of a mangled oil infrastructure which the Iraqi's will own and help them prosper

uh, the entire reason the US supported osama and his cre was that so the russians wouldnt threaten the middle east oil reserves. the US will buy the oil at a cheap price so they arent as reliant on saudi arabia. the oil belongs to iraq and iraqis will prosper just like Native Americans did by getting reservations.

Creation of the first representative system in the country's history

that could have been done after gulf war I if it was so important to the american people. if its all about democracy then why the hell was the US ever supporting iraq in the first place? why did it take saddams invasion into kuwait to get their attention? nope sorry, not a plausable reason.

Pluralistic schools opened

women being barred from school didnt seem to bother america when they were shipping weapons to osama and his crew. and religous intolerance wasnt so bad when they needed saddam to beat iran. nope, not the reason.

Never again able to construct an arms program to threaten Western interests

well since he never had anything to threaten the US, that is a lie. anybody with a large stick can kill an american walking around. he was contained and useless. they are a third world nation. the whole WMd thing was a red herring. the US is the greatest WMD holder on earth. if you went after ever nation who can dry bacteria canada would be next. its obvious the technology that iraq had is available to any number of countries and cannot be a grounds for destruction. notice that bush doesnt mention WMD much anymore. they are just some barrels hidden in the desery somewhere that are useless.

Ending of funding to terrorist groups

uh isnt sending money to osama and his crew and supporting saddam and General pinochet terorism? the US has supported many of the worst dictators in the last 50 years. 70% of americans stupidly think that saddam was "likely" involved in 9/11, which tells you the average insight of post 9/11 america. the US has sent far more money to violent men then saddam ever would have.

so once again, the "reasons" just turn out to be knee jerk recycled material.

Sirriff

[KrustyKidd]

Yeah America is to blame chant the monkey Liberals. 

This is why 55 % of Muslims want to leave their country and most would love to get to the USA.

This is why 40.000 Cdns each year flee to the US and less than 3.000 come the other way - most to get socialised ie. 'let others pay for it' rationed health care.

Yeah America is to blame with the world's 2nd highest standard of living, its $34 K per capita GDP and its increasing personal disposable income.

Yeah America is to blame for its deep capital markets, respect of private property and open public debate on any and all issues.

Yeah America is to blame for the complete collapse of marxian and Islamic dictatorships and their inability to provide a meaningful quality of life for their people.

Yeah America is to blame for the fact that the Saudi's and Iraqi's are incapable of even developing, refining and distributing their own oil resources.

And of course America is to blame for the fact that 50 % of Islamic women are illiterate.

Yeah i agree, America is to blame.

Nova, once again a two second google search gave me the answer to a couple of the facts you disputed with Craig.

something like 76% illiteracy rate for women in Iraqhttp://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/social/illiteracy.htm

As for Canadians leaving for the US and better jobs you can read the Forum archives to verify that.

This is the UN search engine where you can verify or counter some of the points made. I didn't bother to wade through it but you can in order to counter Craig.

http://www.un.org/search/

Nova

that can't be true. If any of that proof was true, people wouldn't be calling for the resignations of both Bush and Blair. And Bush wouldn't be facing a possible investigation. Also, the democrats wouldn't be hammering him on Iraq's failures.

Nova, there is every Dem in the US trying to find dirt on Bush. Do you think for a moment that they are going to sit on something? They have nothing for one reason; there is nothing.

Blair was cleared the other day on that intelligence thing too.

BTW, do your own searches from now on.

[nova_satori]

if any of it was true, why aren't we all behind bush on WMD and Saddam-Al queda Links??

If any of it was true, no one would be contesting the evidence.

Obviously, since none of that is happening, the evidence MUST be far less concrete then the right-wingers like to pass it off to be.

Blair is a different story, he's actually useful to the world. The EU needs him for his vision.

Bush on the other hand....

[Nuclear]

if any of it was true, why aren't we all behind bush on WMD and Saddam-Al queda Links??

Why don't you enlighten us considering you seem to know everything.

I remind you that going into Iraq was PROPOSED BY THE PRESIDENT and PASSED by the SENATE AND HOUSE. The President can't just take the military on a safari whenever he feels like it. There are rules. He went to Congress and the majority of congress gave him the ability to enter Iraq if he saw fit. President Bush followed the system created 200 years before most of us were born. The system passed it.

Nova, I must say, it's really fun debating with you. It's like a sport almost....:-D

[KrustyKidd]

NOVA

Blair is a different story, he's actually useful to the world. The EU needs him for his vision.

What vision Nova? Help old Kurious Kidd here, what are you talking about? More rhetoric or is there something there like the EU/Blair dynamo I never heard of?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Nuclear,

I must say that decisions passed by congress and senate in the US only apply to the US, just like a Muslim in his own house in a foreign country. The laws aren't the same outside the front door.

Dear KK, I must agree about the Blair thing. He had a million people protesting his 'unswerving loyalty' to the US. I guess he didn't want to be seen as some sort of 'free thinking anarchist' and is sacrificing any hope for re-election by disobeying the will of the populace. (Who seemed to know more facts than him).

PS. Thanks for your candor.

Now, with both Rumsfeld and Bush admitting there was no link between Saddam and 9/11, no evidence of WMD's, and no specific 'imminent (45 minute) threat proven, can one country invade another, kill thousands, and say 'oops'?

[KrustyKidd]

Now, with both Rumsfeld and Bush admitting there was no link between Saddam and 9/11, no evidence of WMD's, and no specific 'imminent (45 minute) threat proven, can one country invade another, kill thousands, and say 'oops'?

Looks like.

Although I agree with what has happened and is still happening I am watching the process closely. When rules outweigh sense action sometimes makes rules of it's own. Yes, time for this right wing guy to say that things were exaggerated and glad that they were. Knowingly by Bush? Not a chance. By those close to him? Oh ya. Are we better off? Oh ya. Are they better off? Oh ya.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Knowingly by Bush? Not a chance.

I'd be reeeealy surprised. G.H.W.Bush ran 'clandestine operations in Central America on behalf of US multi-national' interests for years, then was the head of the CIA, then was VP, then Pres. I doubt his son would have had 'no idea' how things are done.

[KrustyKidd]

GW. AKA "Dr Evil." The mastermind who has run the whole show from start to finish. Nobody makes a move without his say so. Nothing is left to chance.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

With George Herbert Walker Bush, 'Dubya's dad', I would not doubt it for a second. I fully expect that he will be remembered amongst the 'intelligence community' as the greatest of all time. (Well deserved, I might add)

[nova_satori]

What vision Nova? Help old Kurious Kidd here, what are you talking about? More rhetoric or is there something there like the EU/Blair dynamo I never heard of?

Sorta. Blair is the key to uniteing the EU into something resembeling factions that actually work with each other. The EU is so disunited, even the people that live in EU member countries think that it will take 50-80 years before they catch the US. Blair is the key to making that time much shorter.

I remind you that going into Iraq was PROPOSED BY THE PRESIDENT and PASSED by the SENATE AND HOUSE. The President can't just take the military on a safari whenever he feels like it. There are rules. He went to Congress and the majority of congress gave him the ability to enter Iraq if he saw fit. President Bush followed the system created 200 years before most of us were born. The system passed it.

Nova, I must say, it's really fun debating with you. It's like a sport almost....:-D

Wow, you are completely ignorant to the changes that have occured since 9/11-Iraq. Typical American, I can't expect any more of you. Does the word HYSTERIA mean ANYTHING to you? Mention WMD and the whole world USED to listen to you, when EVIDENCE mean something.

The problem with democracy is that a group of hysterical idiots can ruin the lives for millions that are not part of their juristidiction. A charastimic idiot can overrule the rational side. (but bush isn't charastiamic or an idiot).

The system works when rational people that have foresight are in charge. This is not the case. Should you actually study US history (which is obvious that you have not), you will see that the system designed 200 years ago, that worked 200 years ago, was not meant to run in a time like this the same way.

I grow tired of debating with someone who actually believes state propaganda.