EGALE

gerryhatrick · February 4, 2006

Try reacting without fear or bias to the entire article betsy, not just some "introduction",

Haven't you noticed? We're way past the "introduction" line, Gerryhatrick!

Kindly read. It's like jumping into the fray kicking and swinging away without knowing what the fray is all about.

Not really betsy, since my post was a direct response to you talking about the introduction line and how it seems so similar to something you found at the NAMBLA website.

Please debate in good faith, thanks.

geoffrey · February 4, 2006

Try reacting without fear or bias to the entire article betsy, not just some "introduction",

Haven't you noticed? We're way past the "introduction" line, Gerryhatrick!

Kindly read. It's like jumping into the fray kicking and swinging away without knowing what the fray is all about.

Not really betsy, since my post was a direct response to you talking about the introduction line and how it seems so similar to something you found at the NAMBLA website.

Please debate in good faith, thanks.

Your not even debating. You've yet to show any evidence that these gay rights groups will stand up for youth to not be abused at these support groups where they wish to encourage sex between adults and 14-15 year olds.

gerryhatrick · February 4, 2006

Can't you add anything sensibly informative other than say I'm anti-gay?

You get what you give I guess.

Can't you think of homosexuals as anything other than sneaky pedophiles trying to make it easier for them to have sex with minors?

gerryhatrick · February 4, 2006

Your not even debating. You've yet to show any evidence that these gay rights groups will stand up for youth to not be abused at these support groups where they wish to encourage sex between adults and 14-15 year olds.

What gay rights groups are encouraging sex between adults and 14-15 year olds?

I would gladly debate if the subject was honesty put forth. So far it has not. Betsy has done nothing but deal in innuendo and negative suspicion. An I supposed to debate that?

She is trying to paint homosexuals as pedophiles. I'm I required to debate that? No thanks, I'll just point out anti-gay bias and move on.

YankAbroad · February 4, 2006

But we're not talking about you. We are talking about others

Why not talk about minding your own business?

If you spend more time actually reaching out to troubled children, and less time trying to "protect" them through big government bureaucracy, you'd actually be helping people. But I get the idea it's less about protecting people for you, and more about getting people who you don't like under the guise of protecting others.

You've yet to show any evidence that these gay rights groups will stand up for youth

You weren't even able to name a gay rights group in the whole country until tml12 provided you with a link to their web sites.

So you're not exactly an expert, this much we've established. Thus, demanding that groups which you cannot even name prove they're doing something is a bit rich. You don't even know what groups you're making a demand of! :lol:

geoffrey · February 4, 2006

Your not even debating. You've yet to show any evidence that these gay rights groups will stand up for youth to not be abused at these support groups where they wish to encourage sex between adults and 14-15 year olds.

What gay rights groups are encouraging sex between adults and 14-15 year olds?

I would gladly debate if the subject was honesty put forth. So far it has not. Betsy has done nothing but deal in innuendo and negative suspicion. An I supposed to debate that?

She is trying to paint homosexuals as pedophiles. I'm I required to debate that? No thanks, I'll just point out anti-gay bias and move on.

EGALE. They say that these 15 year olds are being hurt by current laws that prevent sex between these people. They want their limit lowered to the hetro limit (which is already too low) in order to allow 14 and 15 year olds to have sex with adults.

If they didn't approve, they would support raising the limit to 16 like many other hetro groups. But instead they want to legalise homosexual 'sex' with 14 and 15 year olds.

Maybe your problem comes from a misunderstanding of the laws. The age of consent is sex with adults. If they want to legalise sex between a 14 year old and an adult so they can have sex with people they 'encounter' at these so called support groups, thats pretty pedophilic in my opinion.

All of this is in their statement.

betsy · February 4, 2006

I would gladly debate if the subject was honesty put forth. So far it has not. Betsy has done nothing but deal in innuendo and negative suspicion. An I supposed to debate that?
She is trying to paint homosexuals as pedophiles. I'm I required to debate that? No thanks, I'll just point out anti-gay bias and move on.

Pardon me, but I would like to think that bluntly stating "EGALE is full of b.s." is more than just an innuendo.

Continuously and deliberately twisting and putting words in my post is not what I would call "honesty put forth."

You say "debate in good faith." Well I say that you ought to.

So far my blunt statement and questioning of EGALE's motives have been backed up...whether you approve of the sources or not....the fact remains that I have more than just plain personal opinion to stand on. You have none.

YankAbroad · February 4, 2006

Betsy didn't even know who EGALE was until tml12 pointed them out.

Now, she's an "expert" on them.

How funny. :lol:

betsy · February 4, 2006

But we're not talking about you. We are talking about others

Why not talk about minding your own business?

If you spend more time actually reaching out to troubled children, and less time trying to "protect" them through big government bureaucracy, you'd actually be helping people. But I get the idea it's less about protecting people for you, and more about getting people who you don't like under the guise of protecting others.

Since you like to make personal potshots, I guess fair is fair.

So tell me, why so defensive of EGALE?

gerryhatrick · February 4, 2006

EGALE. They say that these 15 year olds are being hurt by current laws that prevent sex between these people. They want their limit lowered to the hetro limit (which is already too low) in order to allow 14 and 15 year olds to have sex with adults.
If they didn't approve, they would support raising the limit to 16 like many other hetro groups. But instead they want to legalise homosexual 'sex' with 14 and 15 year olds.

Where in thier statement does it say they want 14 and 15 year olds to be able to have sex with adults, exactly?

YankAbroad · February 4, 2006

Betsy Goes Online

Betsy: "Gays are all about pedophilia!"

tml12: "No they aren't."

YankAbroad: "Name a major gay group!"

Betsy: *posts art web site* "Here you are!"

Everyone: *hearty laughter at betsy's stupidity*

tml12: "Here's EGALE, the largest gay group in Canada."

Betsy: "Oh well I'm not an expert." *goes to EGALE and searches for 'age of consent'*

Betsy: *finds article which she doesn't read* "Ah HA! They want kids to have sex with 45 year olds! Gays are all about pedophilia!"

Everyone: "No they aren't."

Betsy: "Gays are pedophiles and I don't understand why you'd personally attack me, you pedophile!"

Everyone: *sigh*

:lol:

gerryhatrick · February 4, 2006

So far my blunt statement and questioning of EGALE's motives have been backed up...whether you approve of the sources or not....the fact remains that I have more than just plain personal opinion to stand on. You have none.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you think homosexuals want to have sex with children?

betsy · February 4, 2006

Betsy didn't even know who EGALE was until tml12 pointed them out.
Now, she's an "expert" on them.

How funny.

So I didn't know specific gay groups by name. Actually I consider that a plus-point for me.

Just shows you I never really followed the Gay Rights Movement until I stumbled on NAMBLA. So if you want to show that I'm a fanatic hell-bent against anything gay....you, yourself just proved I'm not what you want to paint me to be.

I never claimed that I was an expert. Obviously you thought I was...at some point.

Fooled you huh? Hey, don't blame me for your own mistake.

Hopefully you'll twig on EGALE as fast as you twigged on me.

gerryhatrick · February 4, 2006

So tell me, why so defensive of EGALE?

Oh, he's probably gay betsy.

Why else would someone defend them from bias and ignorance unless they were one of them, right?

betsy · February 4, 2006

So far my blunt statement and questioning of EGALE's motives have been backed up...whether you approve of the sources or not....the fact remains that I have more than just plain personal opinion to stand on. You have none.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you think homosexuals want to have sex with children?

Obviously you have not been reading and following the discussion. I've made my stance on that. Scroll back and read.

I'm not gonna make it easy for you. Do your homework. Fair is fair.

betsy · February 5, 2006

EGALE. They say that these 15 year olds are being hurt by current laws that prevent sex between these people. They want their limit lowered to the hetro limit (which is already too low) in order to allow 14 and 15 year olds to have sex with adults.

If they didn't approve, they would support raising the limit to 16 like many other hetro groups. But instead they want to legalise homosexual 'sex' with 14 and 15 year olds.

Where in thier statement does it say they want 14 and 15 year olds to be able to have sex with adults, exactly?

Right here.

CONCERN #3: INABILITY TO DATE PEERS

LGBT youth groups provide vital support to young people struggling with their sexuality. Many LGBT youth come out at LGBT youth groups or other places where LGBT people meet. Even at a youth group they are likely to encounter people who are more than two years older than them, beyond the current “close-in-age” exception. To criminalize the primarily healthy sexual relations that ensue seems perverse, furthering the marginalization of LGBT youth. It is also possible that the youth groups themselves will fear being open to those under 16, causing them to make rules to exclude them. The harm done in cutting off access to this vital resource would be substantial.

Whatever the age of consent is, the Government may wish to consider increasing the window for the “close-in-age” exception

------------------

LGBT youth....their ages range from what? 12, 13, 14, 15?

What about this so-called "more than two years older than them, beyond the current close-in-age exception"

Just how far beyond is their meaning of "beyond?" That could mean just about any older age! It can even include 80 year olds!

gerryhatrick · February 5, 2006

Obviously you have not been reading and following the discussion. I've made my stance on that. Scroll back and read.
I'm not gonna make it easy for you. Do your homework. Fair is fair.

So the answer is yes then.

And you bristle at being called anti-gay? Look in the mirror betsy, you have an anti-gay agenda.

gerryhatrick · February 5, 2006

LGBT youth....their ages range from what? 12, 13, 14, 15?
What about this so-called "more than two years older than them, beyond the current close-in-age exception"

Just how far beyond is their meaning of "beyond?" That could mean just about any older age! It can even include 80 year olds!

If you don't know the ages of people at a LGBT youth group, then how are you able to make assumptions about them?

Obviously your ignorance extends so far as to think an 80 year old might be at a youth group, so that provides some hint of your logical analysis here.

Your cited portion does not indicate that EGALE wants 14 and 15 year olds to be able to have sex with adults, btw. When you have a real basis for your assumptions try again.

YankAbroad · February 5, 2006

Why are you calling 17 year olds "adults," betsy.

EGALE's press release is clearly with regard to teens in relationships, such as a 15 year old and 16 year old, where the 16 year old turns 17 and suddenly becomes "illegal."

The only person talking about "adults" is you.

betsy · February 5, 2006

LGBT youth....their ages range from what? 12, 13, 14, 15?

What about this so-called "more than two years older than them, beyond the current close-in-age exception"

Just how far beyond is their meaning of "beyond?" That could mean just about any older age! It can even include 80 year olds!

If you don't know the ages of people at a LGBT youth group, then how are you able to make assumptions about them?

Obviously your ignorance extends so far as to think an 80 year old might be at a youth group, so that provides some hint of your logical analysis here.

Your cited portion does not indicate that EGALE wants 14 and 15 year olds to be able to have sex with adults, btw. When you have a real basis for your assumptions try again.

Gerryhatrick and YankAbroad,

You just twist and turn...and that's not really a discussion. Unless you can discuss...refute sensibly with something to back you up, then I will not go any further either. Let's connect again when we can sensibly have a constructive discussion.

mcqueen625 · February 5, 2006

A 17 year old guy who's having sex with a 14 year old is a perverted pedophile in my view.

I disagree.

So do I. Let's try and keep our terms proper here, okay? A paedophile is an adult with a clinically diagnosed psychiatric condition who is aroused by pre-pubescent children. There is nothing whatever abnormal about a 17 year old lusting after a 14 year old.

I don't even necessarily find EGALE's statement that absolute age limits are wrong - to be wrong. I would not, for example, prosecute an 18 year old for having sex with a 17 year old, or a 15 year old for having sex with a 13 year old. However, that doesn't happen now, and would not have happened under the proposed change. What the law asked for, which EGALE opposed, was to raise the age of consent for adults to have sex with juveniles from 14 to 16 - while still keeping in place the 3 year limit for legal sex. In other words, it still would have been legal for a 17 year old to have sex with his 14 year old girlfriend. What would have been banned is 29 year olds having sex with 14 year olds.

And no one who opposed this - including EGALE, can claim they oppose grown men having sex with 14 year old children. They are explicitly endorsing this behaviour.

I can guarantee you one thing. If I ever found out that someone was having sex with my 14 or 15 year old grandchildren, they had better hope that they get arrested before I get to them, beause they will not be alive to attend any court hearing!

betsy · February 5, 2006

Obviously you have not been reading and following the discussion. I've made my stance on that. Scroll back and read.

I'm not gonna make it easy for you. Do your homework. Fair is fair.

So the answer is yes then.

And you bristle at being called anti-gay? Look in the mirror betsy, you have an anti-gay agenda.

Here is something that may jog your memory, Gerryhatrick....I am quoting your reply when you were accused for having hate views against the CPC.

QUOTE

Same in your view because your view is hatred and bile for the CPC regardelss of what they actually do.

This fragment makes no sense. I can understand you think I have "hatred" for the CPC. It's usually the same pattern with a rightwinger...accuse critisism as being "hatred".http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5027

You keep accusing my criticism of EGALE as to mean that I am anti-gay or I have hatred for all gays.

I can easily say to you , "It's usually the same pattern with a LEFTwinger...accuse critisism as being "hatred"."

As you said..."this fragment makes no sense." I agree with you.

That's why it's senseless for us to continue on this line of so-called "discussion."

YankAbroad · February 5, 2006

You still haven't demonstrated how EGALE is calling for "adults to have sex with children." And you've completely ignored the point brought up many times now about kids separated by a less than two years of age who would be penalized and imprisoned under this law.

Talk about "twisting and turning." You're patently dishonest (surprise, surprise). :lol:

geoffrey · February 5, 2006

You still haven't demonstrated how EGALE is calling for "adults to have sex with children." And you've completely ignored the point brought up many times now about kids separated by a less than two years of age who would be penalized and imprisoned under this law.
Talk about "twisting and turning." You're patently dishonest (surprise, surprise).

Damnit Yank, you could put the facts spelled out right in front of your eyes, but you wouldn't see it.

Specifically, they say that they are upset that some gay kids at these support groups meet people beyond 2 years and have sex with them. 15 + 3 = 18!!!! That means a 15 year old is having sex with an adult.

Let me spell it out in one line for you, maybe you will be willing to take off your rose-coloured glasses for second:

A 15 year old is having sex with an adult... A 15 year old is having sex with an adult.

Do you get it now? Good! They don't advocate a common sense platform of having an equal age of 16 for everyone, instead, they want it legal for a 14 year old to have sex with an adult. Lowering the age of consent to 14 for gays is allowing a 14 year old to have sex with an adult (in EGALES paper). .. let me one line it for you again... glasses off??

14 year olds having sex with adults!!!

Not cool, hopefully you will leave those glasses off for the rest of this discussion and actually see what EGALE is advocating.

If you ok with a 14 year old sleeping with an adult, then just say it. But either say EGALE (and the rest of the gay community that supports a 14 year old age of consent) is wrong, or sex between 14 year olds and adults is ok.

YankAbroad · February 5, 2006

No, the age of consent law says NOTHING about adults.

It talks about the age of consent.

It's possible for two teens to violate the age of consent law and still not be adults -- such as two kids in a relationship which was legal until one of them turns 16, for instance.

Again, NOTHING about adults was mentioned in the release. It's entirely imagined by betsy and yourself.