Can we squeeze in one more Pope after Benny?

[Biblio Bibuli]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn25.html

[Biblio Bibuli]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn25.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I HATE for an excellent piece like that go to waste!

[ceemes]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn25.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I HATE for an excellent piece like that go to waste!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent? In what way? Pure bovine solid waste material if you ask me.

[Montgomery Burns]

I don't know much about the Bible stuff at the beginning, but the part about Europe (and Russia) dying because of low birth rates (and rampant abortion) is dead on.

Europe the soul-less state. Just like the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. No wonder they both seemed so miserable.

Bye bye Europe. Hope you enjoy the future Eurabia.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Bye bye Europe.  Hope you enjoy the future Eurabia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're speaking as if Canada fared better.

I think Canada will split up. One side will be Canarabia, the other Canasia.

[Slavik44]

No it was a complete bunch of bullshit I was writing a response to it when I got fed up with the bullshit. In Canada and the U.S we have population increase through natural means, the united states is far from christian in action, science has already claimed that we are here to reproduce, we cannot be expected to have many children, the average person has enough trouble affording 2. In the old days children were much more neccasary than now, back then the death rate was as high as the birth rate, now in countries like Canada and the U.S the death rate is significantly lower than the birth rate, we don't need children to grow food, we don't need children to fight constant wars, and many of us can't afford to have as many children as we did in the 1970's let alone 1700's. The article is blantatly rascist its sole purpose is to write about the impending doom of the white people, particularly europeans and does so on a religous basis. Of which it is still a little off, there is no proof as to how old jesus's mother was at his birth, although the old testament uses virgin to describe a young women. I don't care if luke was a physician, they make it sound as though the guy was competition for todays doctors, and on that are implying that if luke belives it you should belive it because he is much more knowledgable then your GP. Luke a man of science, Luke a physician, Luke a man who wrote about the birth of jesus many decades after Jesus was dead.

[willy]

Wow, I am I wrong or do some of you take things a little to seriously.

This is just some article pointing to a reduction in birth rate for developed nations. The article did also point out that the reduction was occurring in Japan. This is an economic phenomenon more than cultural. In Canada we are not replacing ourselves but we have a healthy immigration policy and that is a good thing. As our baby boom ages we will need a younger generation to continue an economy that can pay for the large population bubble in their most expensive years. Yes we still need the younger generation, but just not as localized or direct as earlier generations. We still take a portion of income to pay for those how then are more vulnerable or reliant on the social services our modern society has created.

I am surprised to see the numbers for Russia. I would have thought they would still be having more babies, as this tends to correlate with poverty more than anything else. The US for example has a large disparity in income and the large families are not the rich ones.

As demographics can help inform policy challenges and decisions this is outside of the biblical reference something to consider as we plan for the future. Good book on demographic trends, “Boom Bust and Echo”.

[Biblio Bibuli]

The article is blantatly rascist its sole purpose is to write about the impending doom of the white people, particularly europeans ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well yes ... it's sole purpose was to write about the impending doom of the white race. I'm glad to see you were astute enough to catch that.

I'm not sure how you managed to pull out the "racist" label there ... do you mean racist against the white race, or is is just enough to mention that there ARE races in an article that makes him racist? (Just trying to keep on top of it ... I don't want to mention a 1000 meter dash one day & get labeled a "racist".)

In any case it IS a fact & if the disappearace of the white race in traditionally white countries (ie Europe) doesn't bother you ... then pass it by. Go save a snowy owl or some other endangered animal that does catch your fancy. (Oh hell there I go again ... worrying about bloody WHITE birds ... my apologies).

[Biblio Bibuli]

I am surprised to see the numbers for Russia. I would have thought they would still be having more babies, as this tends to correlate with poverty more than anything else. The US for example has a large disparity in income and the large families are not the rich ones.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Russians appear to have more brains & heart than alot of other people. If they don't have the money ... they don't reproduce as much.

[Slavik44]

Well yes ... it's sole purpose was to write about the impending doom of the white race. I'm glad to see you were astute enough to catch that.

no problem

I'm not sure how you managed to pull out the "racist" label there ... do you mean racist against the white race, or is is just enough to mention that there ARE races in an article that makes him racist?

Well you are wrong, there are no races, there is different cultures but only one human race, that is a fact. The human race has been around for a very short time (7,000 generations) although this seems like alot, it is not enough to biologicaly classify humans into different races. It remains a fact that there is more variation within percieved races that between these percieved races. It is a fact that 0.01% of Human genes determine the shape of your eyes, the charachteristics of your hair, your skin colour etc... 0.01% is not enough to classify people into races. So you would be wrong when you say there is races. There may be percieved races, but these perceptions are false.

So why is it racist?

1. It ignores developing nations focusing only on western naations.

Of itself not a big problem but it grows into one

2. It ignores immigration

Are immigrants to Canada a part of Canadian society? or they Canadian?

3. It ignores the world's Total Fertility Rate

Important because it shows that the worlds population is still gorwing.

These straws have turned into a brick on the camels back, by ignoring immigration it writes off immigrants as a legitimate means to grow the population of a western country. What about the children of immigrants are they Canadians? Do they add to Canada's true population? There is enough babies in the world to more than increase the population of the human race. The combination of these three factors indicates that the article is racist because it ignores Immigrants as legitimate populations.

4. But demographics is a game of last man standing, It's no consolation that Muslim birth rates will be as bad as yours in 2050, The last people around in any numbers will determine the kind of society we live in.

This is where the implications of racism can be understood and applied to the text as a whole. The article belives there to be an on going racial war fueld by population, and therefore a 4th generation Canadian from India cannot be Canadian, they cannot have canadian values. They have indian values, they cannot contribute to Canadian society, they hurt it. In otherwords I got the strong feeling that the article was saying immigrants to western nations were not and could never become legitimate westernized people.

But demographics is a game of last man standing, It's no consolation that Muslim birth rates will be as bad as yours in 2050, The last people around in any numbers will determine the kind of society we live in.

The statement is simply false, population now has very little to do with culture. North America has 5% of the worlds population, but our cultural influence spans the globe, our power is disproportionate to are population, and it has been this way for a long time. Muslim countries are not becoming more muslim; Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Bahrain, Turkey, Afgahnistan do not appear to becoming more muslim they appear to becoming more western. China is not becoming more Asian it is becoming more western it is adapting and applying free market economic principles to its communist society although there is still major differences. However 95% of the world is becoming more not less like the other 5%.

In any case it IS a fact & if the disappearace of the white race in traditionally white countries (ie Europe) doesn't bother you ... then pass it by. Go save a snowy owl or some other endangered animal that does catch your fancy. (Oh hell there I go again ... worrying about bloody WHITE birds ... my apologies).

Well white people are not a race, but whites are not disapearing we still have a higher Crude Birth Rate than death rate, so unlike certain species that have a higher death rate than birth rate, whites cannot be said to be disappearing, because as a whole they are actually increasing.

[willy]

The growth rate is a development issue and not a race issue. Western Europe happens to be very well developed. Below I pointed out the Japanese approach to their issues with declining birth rates.

At the same time areas like Africa are still doubling in population every 10 years. They have large populations of individuals under 50yrs.

I am confused by population predictions. The disease in the developing world has a shortened life span and a reduction in population growth would to me make future population growth volatile to predict.

If for example India and China do become developed countries is it reasonable to believe in 15 – 20 years they may be reporting declining birth rates.

So how as a world community can we move the undeveloped world into a modern economy quickly enough not to explode the population and create a long term sustainable planet? This is why I think this discussion can be valuable. Every life is valuable and the ignore Africa approach by the west can not continue. At the same time sending food aid and health care is far from a solution and may only make the long term challenge more dire and less sustainable. What is it in a developed country that has us choose not to reproduce?

Globally, although the population growth is slowing down, it has been projected that, there will still be a billion more people in the developing world by 2015, and the most rapid growth will occur in the world’s least developed countries, where the population is expected to triple over the next 50 years from 658 million to 1.8 billion.

Already, these countries are least able to provide basic services to their populace and are challenged by hunger, HIV/AIDS, water scarcity, environmental degradation, crime and violence among others.

Ghana, like many other Sub-Saharan African countries, has a high population growth rate.

With a total population of 18,912,079, (2000 Population and Housing Census), Ghana’s population had an increase of 53.8 per cent over the 1984 population of 12,296,081.

This represents an intercensal growth rate of 2.7 per cent. Between 1984-1990, the growth rate of the population was 2.9 per cent.

This was attributable to mass return of Ghanaians and the inflow of refugees in response to improvements in the economy.

Source

Tokyo - Japan's population fell this year for the first time since World War II, raising concerns about the challenge posed to the world's number two economy by a low birth rate.

Amid fears about the impact of a greying population, Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's cabinet endorsed a plan on Tuesday to promote gender equality and to create a work environment that will help working parents.

Source

Population calculator

Population Calculator

Population 2005-12-29

1. China 1,310,070,985

2. India 1,087,764,087

3. USA 297,083,330

4. Indonesia 243,713,771

5. Brazil 187,091,084

World 6,482,572,352

Source

[Biblio Bibuli]

Well you are wrong, there are no races, there is different cultures but only one human race, that is a fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States states:

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged ... on account of race."

[Slavik44]

Well you are wrong, there are no races, there is different cultures but only one human race, that is a fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States states:

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged ... on account of race."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is your point? I said races were cultural and not a scientific fact, you cannot disproove that because it is true. There is no scientific basis for the classification of people into different races, it is cultural and based on perceptions. Your use of the Constitution just prooves that as the U.S constitution is cultural not scientific, the point remains that there is no white race or black race only the human race, that is a prooven scientific fact.

[Biblio Bibuli]

Well you are wrong, there are no races, there is different cultures but only one human race, that is a fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States states:

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged ... on account of race."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is your point? I said races were cultural and not a scientific fact, you cannot disproove that because it is true. There is no scientific basis for the classification of people into different races, it is cultural and based on perceptions. Your use of the Constitution just prooves that as the U.S constitution is cultural not scientific, the point remains that there is no white race or black race only the human race, that is a prooven scientific fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It sounds like potatos/potatas, tomatos/tomatas to me ... but let's do it your way.

The fact of the matter is that neither Mark Steyn, myself, or just about any other caucasian person gives a damn if our racial features die out. No more pink skin or blue eyes ... who really gives a damn? A permanent Hawaiian tan ... sounds perfect.

It's the European culture that's going to be wiped out that's going to be a damned shame. It has been one of the most successful in recent history & if demographics are to be believed, it will not be replaced by a superior culture ... but a very inferior one.

[Slavik44]

The fact of the matter is that neither Mark Steyn, myself, or just about any other caucasian person gives a damn if our racial features die out. No more pink skin or blue eyes ... who really gives a damn? A permanent Hawaiian tan ... sounds perfect.

Okay wonderfull so then you will recant your argument about the white race dissapearing?

It's the European culture that's going to be wiped out that's going to be a damned shame. It has been one of the most successful in recent history & if demographics are to be believed, it will not be replaced by a superior culture ... but a very inferior one.

You are still measurign culture by population, I woudl rather look at the spread of culture. Today Western Nations are not found in just Europe and North America. That is the greatest testament to the future of western Culture, its spread.

The only way to say western culture is dieing is to call all non-whites illegitamite. But if we don't do that we only have to look at Japan and South Korea to see western culture in practice in Asia. We only have to look towards Brazil to see western culture in practice in South America. We only need to look at the former soviet Union and countries like ukraine to see the death of communism, We need only to look at country like egypt to see hope for Africa and the middle east. We can look towards China and see a partial application of Free market principles, We can look at the Asian NIC's to see increased move towards western culture, We can look at pictures of Osama's niece, and she aint wearing a Jilbab or hijab. The evidence points to the fact that there is a spread of democracy not a retreat, Western enterprise is flourishing, are culture is spreadng. It is wrong to sit back and say Western culture is disappearing when around the world the examples proove the contrary, around the world the examples proove that European/western culture is not being replaced but adopted.

[Biblio Bibuli]

  You are still measurign culture by population, I woudl rather look at the spread of culture. Today Western Nations are not found in just Europe and North America. That is the greatest testament to the future of western Culture, its spread.

  The only way to say western culture is dieing is to call all non-whites illegitamite. But if we don't do that we only have to look at Japan and South Korea to see western culture in practice in Asia. We only have to look towards Brazil to see western culture in practice in South America. We only need to look at the former soviet Union and countries like ukraine to see the death of communism, We need only to look at country like egypt to see hope for Africa and the middle east. We can look towards China and see a partial application of Free market principles, We can look at the Asian NIC's to see increased move towards western culture, We can look at pictures of Osama's niece, and she aint wearing a Jilbab or hijab. The evidence points to the fact that there is a spread of democracy not a retreat, Western enterprise is flourishing, are culture is spreadng. It is wrong to sit back and say Western culture is disappearing when around the world the examples proove the contrary, around the world the examples proove that European/western culture is not being replaced but adopted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're mistaking culture for couture.

The Japanese salary man may be wearing a western suit & tie but he is not thinking at all like a westerner ... and this thought process is the real western culture.

European culture exalts the individual. Almost every other culture on the planet exalts the group or tribe. Which is why almost every single advance in medicine, technology etc. over the last several hundred years have come from westerners. It breeds creativity.

Isn't the Bible promoting individualism? I think so.

And just speak to people from different cultures living here. Some have become westernized ... most have not & don't want to. They feel their culture is superior. Bin Laden's neice is posing in a bathtub, but most Arab young ladies in the west can't date until Dad picks them out a husband. Even three generations in.

The reality is that not enough immigrants from non western countries buy into the western way & once they become the majority, the western way will disappear. The joke however is on them, though, as Europe, America & Canada don't have a miraculous aura about them ... once the culture from the failed socities becomes the norm here ... it'll become a failed society very quickly.

I'm glad I'm old!!

[willy]

Isn't the Bible promoting individualism? I think so.

No it does not. BB that was the second time today I have read a reference you made to the bible. Please read it first.

[Slavik44]

I think you're mistaking culture for couture.

No

The Japanese salary man may be wearing a western suit & tie but he is not thinking at all like a westerner ... and this thought process is the real western culture.

European culture exalts the individual. Almost every other culture on the planet exalts the group or tribe. Which is why almost every single advance in medicine, technology etc. over the last several hundred years have come from westerners. It breeds creativity.

Your the one who is confused. First I debunked that whites were dieing, prooving instead that we still have a net population increase. I then debunked the myth that western culture was dieing by pointing to progress around the globe. Now you are claiming that progress is not fas enough so white culture is on its deathbed. The fact is progress is progress and around the world we are seeing progress. In Germany the country industrialized under government control the country followed a path opposite to that of britain, it industrialized and then westernized but it is a westernized country. There are countries in the world today who are industrializing and who are now slowly westernizing. Just because it is not occuring fast enough for your own liking is not enough evidence to say western culture is dieing. You ahve provided no evidence of thsi other than to say that there are muslims who still act like muslims, but I tell you today there are muslims who act like westerners, that is progress however slow.

Isn't the Bible promoting individualism? I think so.

No

And just speak to people from different cultures living here. Some have become westernized ... most have not & don't want to.

I have many friends who are immigrants to this country not a single one says their former country is better and every single one of them is just as canadain as you or I.

They feel their culture is superior.

No the ones I talk to don't, when I was iin High School a teacher once asked the question to immigrants, would you rather live in Canada or your former country....every one said Canada. Infact what you have said is deeply misguided and a belief that is directly responsible for the internment of Japanese Canadians despite a complete lack of evidence. Instead we have already established that it is you who belives his culture is far superior, not the other way around. I must tell you Nationalism is a very dangerous Ideology responsible for millions and millions of deaths.

Bin Laden's neice is posing in a bathtub, but most Arab young ladies in the west can't date until Dad picks them out a husband. Even three generations in.

I didn't say all muslims were fully westernized but that the process was under way, just because the process is slow is not enough proof to argue western culture is on the decline.

The reality is that not enough immigrants from non western countries buy into the western way & once they become the majority, the western way will disappear. The joke however is on them, though, as Europe, America & Canada don't have a miraculous aura about them ... once the culture from the failed socities becomes the norm here ... it'll become a failed society very quickly.

Not enough? Well yes for you 99.9% is not enough I am content to know that many do buy into western culture and it is on ongoing process. We are in no danger of disappearing our culture is flourishing and slowly being adopted.

However you must understand that in Europe this process was also slow, "their are pitfalls to be avoided...particularly in relation to Europe int eh first half of the nineteenth century. 'revolution' suggests an overwhelming and rapid change. It also implies a once and for all occurence, rather than a continuing process." Your problem remains in that you view what happend in Europe as a sudden boom as if it was on the first day that Europe created philosophies counter to the church, on the second day Europe created individualism, on the third day Europe created steam power, on the fourth day Europe created industry and enterprise, industry and enterprise He created them, and on the fith day Europe created literacy, and on the sixth day because europe abandond its belief in God it got lazy and rested to soon allowing its culture to be over run and destroyed by the inferior races. Howecer, The fact is it took hundreds of years in europe so we can't compare countries that have only been westernizing for less than half a century to Modern Europe.

I'm glad I'm old!!

I don't care wether or not your old its no excuse for being ignorant.

[Biblio Bibuli]

I don't care wether or not your old its no excuse for being ignorant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I put out this great piece by Mark Steyn ... http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn25.html ... because I think it's absolutely excellent.

You come barging in here calling Mark's article a "complete bunch of bullshit."

Now if Mark Steyn were here he would undoubtedly agree with much of what I've said to you. And he would, also undoubtedly, be shaking his head in disbelief at much of what you've said to me.

Yet you call ME ignorant.

What is the world coming to? ... tsk tsk tsk tsk ...

[Biblio Bibuli]

Isn't the Bible promoting individualism? I think so.

No it does not. BB that was the second time today I have read a reference you made to the bible. Please read it first.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once the Coles Notes on it come out I'll get right on it.

[Slavik44]

I put out this great piece by Mark Steyn  ...  http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn25.html  ...  because I think  it's absolutely excellent

You come barging in here calling Mark's article a "complete bunch of bullshit."

Now if Mark Steyn were here he would undoubtedly agree with much of what I've said to you.  And he would, also undoubtedly, be shaking his head in disbelief at much of what you've said to me.

Yet you call ME ignorant.     

What is the world coming to? ... tsk tsk tsk tsk ...

You have your wording wrong, I have been a member of mapleleaf web for a long time, I often log on to the forums and look at what other people post and respond to them. I did not coem barging in actually I went to a public forum saw a thread clicked on it read an article. An article that had to ommit 90% of the truth to make even a feeble arguement. It was in fact a very poor article, your defense of it has been no existant.

You were not able to defend the claim that whites were dieing, you were nto able to defend the claim that western culture is dieing, and now you have resorted to a mindless appeal to Authority you are relieng on Nothign mroe than the reputation of the Author to combat the cold hard truth. And that is waste of both your time and my time, If you have proof of your beliefs show them, but up to thsi point you have made no defense of your beliefs other than saying progress is not happening fast enough but progress is progress and it is happening. I have clearly shown to you why this article is bullshit, and if al you can say is Mark Steyn said then you clearly deserve to be labled as acting in an ignorant manner.

Once the Coles Notes on it come out I'll get right on it.

Then stop posting about the damn thing if you have never actually taken the time to read it.

[Biblio Bibuli]

I have been a member of mapleleaf web for a long time,

Nothing to be ashamed of, I'm sure. Did they give you banning privi..... ah, never mind that.

I did not coem barging in ...

I didn't mean onto the Forum, I meant onto this thread ..... MY thread.

You were not able to defend the claim that whites were dieing,

For as long as you insist that one drop of white blo....... ah, never mind ... I don't want to sound racist.

you were nto able to defend the claim that western culture is dieing,

But surely, once you bring a mix into anyth......... ah, never mind that either.

and now you have resorted to a mindless appeal to Authority you are relieng on Nothign mroe than the reputation of the Author to combat the cold hard truth. I have clearly shown to you why this article is bullshit, and if al you can say is Mark said then you clearly deserve to be labled as acting in an ignorant manner.

The world is FULL of stubborn-headed mules, and whether I appeal to Mark, Mathew, Luke or John it won't matter to them. I give up, Slavik!

And that is waste of both your time and my time,

It's been a pleasure.

If you have proof

The proof is in the pudding.

PS - I'm going to squeeze as much joy out of 2006 as I can, knowing full well that unless George and Vladimir do something this will be harder and harder to do with every passing year. I advise you to do the same.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

And a Happy New Year to the rest of the MLF crowd!

May Benedict XVI watch over us!

Amen!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Slavik44]

I didn't mean onto the Forum, I meant onto this thread ..... MY thread.

Nope this ain't your thread, you started the thread yes however, the door was open and a welcome sign was hung and I entered, it was not barging in.

For as long as you insist that one drop of white blo....... ah, never mind ... I don't want to sound racist.

All I am saying is that we have net population increase in the western world.

But surely, once you bring a mix into anyth......... ah, never mind that either.

You might make it better? Thats why our eyes can see more than one colour, our touch feel more than one thing, our voice sound more than one way, and our tounge tastes more than idaho potatoes.

The world is FULL of stubborn-headed mules,

and whether I appeal to Mark, Mathew, Luke or John it won't matter to them. I give up, Slavik!

It might not matter to them but I think we both would have enjoyed this discussion much more if we appealed to facts.

It's been a pleasure.

Sure has, until next time...

The proof is in the pudding.

Sure is and I say the pudding has got a hell of alot better over the years.

PS - I'm going to squeeze as much joy out of 2006 as I can...

and I hope you do I certainly will.

[Biblio Bibuli]

I'm going to squeeze as much joy out of 2006 as I can...

I certainly will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, my first couple of days were a bust. Maybe I'll book a trip to Honolulu ...... YEAH THAT'LL do it !!

Did YOU squeeze out any joy yet?

[Slavik44]

Well, my first couple of days were a bust. Maybe I'll book a trip to Honolulu ...... YEAH THAT'LL do it !!

Did YOU squeeze out any joy yet?

Ive done all right, I'm working on it, the big bang will come on thursday for the medal rounds at the world junior chamionships, that outta be fun...of course with the money I put down I coulda joined you in honolulu.