Martin Favours a Reformed, Elected Senate.

[shoop]

So Martin now favours an elected Senate?

CTV link

What about Alberta's four senators in waiting? They were elected in November, yet they still sit on the sidelines. While in the interim Martin nominated three other senators in March.

Why the change of heart all of a sudden?

[Riverwind]

Why the change of heart all of a sudden?

Read the fine print:

Martin said he likes the idea of an elected Senate, but not before it is reformed to give the provinces fairer representation.

In other words, not before hell freezes over given the current constitutional stalemate. It sounds like a promise he can make without ever being obliged to deliver.

[apollo19]

So Martin now favours an elected Senate?

CTV link

What about Alberta's four senators in waiting? They were elected in November, yet they still sit on the sidelines. While in the interim Martin nominated three other senators in March.

Why the change of heart all of a sudden?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really have to take a look at who Paul Martin really is in order to understand his positions. There are two versions of him: the one the Liberal Party and advisors like Scott Reid tell him to be (like get left votes from the NDP, be anti-american), and the unedited unscripted person who he really is (a corporate type who doesn't want SSM and supported a Canadian role in Iraq). I favour Martin when he says what he honestly believes in, not what the Liberal party tells him to say. Since he was asked by a high-school student and it was unscripted, my take is that this is his actual view -- and not that of the Liberal party. But, we all know he can't afford to put his honest agenda out there or the knives will come from the party.

[shoop]

Seems sorta like a guy who will do *anything* to stay in power.

I like him when he is unscripted as well. But I wouldn't vote for him because he would never act on that...

You really have to take a look at who Paul Martin really is in order to understand his positions. There are two versions of him: the one the Liberal Party and advisors like Scott Reid tell him to be (like get left votes from the NDP, be anti-american), and the unedited unscripted person who he really is (a corporate type who doesn't want SSM and supported a Canadian role in Iraq). I favour Martin when he says what he honestly believes in, not what the Liberal party tells him to say. Since he was asked by a high-school student and it was unscripted, my take is that this is his actual view -- and not that of the Liberal party. But, we all know he can't afford to put his honest agenda out there or the knives will come from the party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[err]

Seems sorta like a guy who will do *anything* to stay in power.

Just like Harper will do anything to get into power... Including trying to "out-Liberal" Paul Martin. Harper's gone directly against just about everything Brian Mulroney stood for....(except Free Trade and Manifest Destiny) like the GST, family allowance, spend, spend, spend, to get votes, rather than profess Conservative ideology....

And why, I had to ask myself is he professing Liberal values to old age pensioners, parents, etc.... Why, to get elected of course....

And then he can implement his social Conservative policies.....

[cybercoma]

Seems sorta like a guy who will do *anything* to stay in power.

Just like Harper will do anything to get into power... Including trying to "out-Liberal" Paul Martin. Harper's gone directly against just about everything Brian Mulroney stood for....(except Free Trade and Manifest Destiny) like the GST, family allowance, spend, spend, spend, to get votes, rather than profess Conservative ideology....

And why, I had to ask myself is he professing Liberal values to old age pensioners, parents, etc.... Why, to get elected of course....

And then he can implement his social Conservative policies.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

simply pathetic.

Why don't you just save yourself all that typing and say, "STEPHEN HARPER IS A FILTHY LIAR! HE JUST WANTS TO SELL CANADA TO THE US!"

[fellowtraveller]

And then he can implement his social Conservative policies.....

Say there, do you know when Harper is next scheduled to eat our babies in public too?

[Guest eureka]

Harper would never do that - in public.

[Canuck E Stan]

But Martin would if it got him an extra vote.

[The Honest Politician]

The Conservatives are the last people who should be talking about senate apointments. The last time a conservative was in power he used an obscure law to apoint enough senators to ram the GST through into Law.

[Montgomery Burns]

Martin has become Harper's poodle.

[shoop]

This would be the same GST the Liberals fought an election against yet never changed. This would be the same GST the Liberals were defending just last week.

What exactly makes a law *obscure*?

The Conservatives are the last people who should be talking about senate apointments. The last time a conservative was in power he used an obscure law to apoint enough senators to ram the GST through into Law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[scribblet]

Seems sorta like a guy who will do *anything* to stay in power.

Just like Harper will do anything to get into power... Including trying to "out-Liberal" Paul Martin. Harper's gone directly against just about everything Brian Mulroney stood for....(except Free Trade and Manifest Destiny) like the GST, family allowance, spend, spend, spend, to get votes, rather than profess Conservative ideology....

And why, I had to ask myself is he professing Liberal values to old age pensioners, parents, etc.... Why, to get elected of course....

And then he can implement his social Conservative policies.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe you could point to the CPC 'social policies' he would implement, exactly which policy- they can be found on the conservative.ca website.

[FTA Lawyer]

Why the change of heart all of a sudden?

Read the fine print:

Martin said he likes the idea of an elected Senate, but not before it is reformed to give the provinces fairer representation.

In other words, not before hell freezes over given the current constitutional stalemate. It sounds like a promise he can make without ever being obliged to deliver.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BINGO!

This is actually something that Martin has been consistent on. Right from his first interview with Peter Mansbridge after getting the job, Martin said he's totally in favour of Senate reform, just it has to be all or none...no baby steps allowed.

Which, as you have pointed out means it will never happen in a Martin government.

FTA

[stubblejumper]

The best model to follow would be a variation on the German Bundesrat. Each province is allocated x senators dependent on population with a max of 12 and a min of 7, then allow each province to select the means of appointing them to the senate or in other words each province has the power to select their senators. Some would choose election (eg. Alberta), some would prefer appointing representatives of the provincial government (eg. Quebec) and most are in the middle. This would be much easier to negotiate and would give each province an official voice in Ottawa.

[fellowtraveller]

The best model to follow would be a variation on the German Bundesrat. Each province is allocated x senators dependent on population with a max of 12 and a min of 7, then allow each province to select the means of appointing them to the senate or in other words each province has the power to select their senators. Some would choose election (eg. Alberta), some would prefer appointing representatives of the provincial government (eg. Quebec) and most are in the middle. This would be much easier to negotiate and would give each province an official voice in Ottawa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are lots of interesting models for Senate reform, and this post is one of them.

All have fatal flaws though - 1) they would require that the Senate also become an effective part of our democratic process, which means a dimunition of the power of the House of Commons, and more importantly the power of the Prime Ministers Office. 2) it would also mean a dimunition of power for Ontario and Quebec, and an increase in the power of the smaller provinces.

Neither will happen in our current model.

Good ideas to keep and hand for the housecleaning coming after Quebec leaves though.

Somebody start a file.

[The Honest Politician]

This would be the same GST the Liberals fought an election against yet never changed. This would be the same GST the Liberals were defending just last week.

What exactly makes a law *obscure*?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes and the same GST the Tories made their most liberal of campaign promises to cut. How are the Tories going to pay for everything they promise and cut the GST? Won't happen. The cut it self is a joke as only the rich will see any real money. Do the math, how much would you have to spend to save $1000 in a year with the full 2cent GST cut? Answer: $50,000 Who do you know that has $50,000 dollars of disposable income. I know a few thousand people who don't earn $50,000 in a year before taxes, let alone have $50,000 after paying the bills.

How many times was the law used before Mulroney dusted it off? It is obscure because it is rarely used, discussed or widely known.

[stubblejumper]

The Senate already has all the powers necessary, de jure, but doesn't use them, de facto.

In actuality none of the provinces have any power in the senate so to say one or two would lose power is untrue. In this model all would gain some power and have a more federal system.

Personally an EEE senate is my preference but this is the most pragmatic solution with minimal tinkering.

[shoop]

Hmmm, why not ask the Liberals the same question?

Their proposed combination of tax cuts and extra spending takes far more out of the coffers than does the CPCs.

Why did anti-poverty groups cry the loudest when the GST was introduced? Because it hurts the poor more due to the larger percentage of their disposable income taken up by the GST. But that's ok, attack, attack, attack. Finally average Canadians aren't listening, sorry.

How are the Tories going to pay for everything they promise and cut the GST? Won't happen. The cut it self is a joke as only the rich will see any real money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[scribblet]

Hmmm, why not ask the Liberals the same question?

Their proposed combination of tax cuts and extra spending takes far more out of the coffers than does the CPCs.

Why did anti-poverty groups cry the loudest when the GST was introduced? Because it hurts the poor more due to the larger percentage of their disposable income taken up by the GST. But that's ok, attack, attack, attack. Finally average Canadians aren't listening, sorry.

How are the Tories going to pay for everything they promise and cut the GST? Won't happen. The cut it self is a joke as only the rich will see any real money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Considering that at least 7 million Canadians pay little or no income tax, it means the lowest income earners will get more out of a GST cut. The liberals prior to the election call had promised about 3 times the surplus in spending, how where they going to do it.

The CPC is now promising changes and reform: www.conservative.ca

Today in Vancouver, Stephen Harper released the Conservative plan of Democratic Reform which will see elected senators, fixed election dates and a cleaner nomination process.

“We need sweeping reforms to show Canadians that their national government will not tolerate corruption in the future,” said Mr. Harper. “Cleaning up corruption and restoring accountability is the first step. We also need to vigorously pursue other measures to put Canada back in the forefront of democratic practice.”

Elements in the Conservative plan of Democratic Reform include:

*

Introducing fixed election dates every four years, except when a government loses the confidence of the House;

*

Establishing a federal process for electing Senators;

*

Ending “parachute” candidates by requiring that a party’s local candidate has the approval of their constituency associations;