Kashechewan

[August1991]

Cheers went up in a recreation centre in Sudbury on Thursday night when the people who had to leave their homes on the Kashechewan First Nation found out Ottawa had promised to relocate their town.

CBC

Why did these people have to relocate? Why do we now hear about this place? Why are they dependant on a government announcement?

Canadians are rich but some Canadians live in the Third World. Why? This disaster is entirely of government making.

Native Indians are unfortunately now dependant on government bureaucrats for their livelihood. In the future, many older Canadians will depend on bureaucrats for their livelihood too. As our population grows older, we will hear more such disasters.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

[BHS]

I read an article yesterday, that their water treatment facility was located near to and downstream from a sewage lagoon, and that the water had been "the colour of beer" for the past 13 years. Mmmmmm, beer.

Nobody forces anybody (adults, that is) to live on a reserve.

[wellandboy]

In a report made in 2003 the Feds recognized that of approx. 450 reserves in Canada, roughly 30% were deemed as critical in terms of water safety and 16% critical for sewage treatment. To most of us in urban Canada, what happens on these remote reserves is way off our radar screens. When we see the squalid living conditions and lack of potable water, to say nothing of the huge social issues like substance abuse (not mentioned in this story), I wonder what the hell we're doing.

I have huge problems with the "reserve" system for aboriginals because it excludes them from Canadian society and leaves them perpetually beholden to the government. Sadly, that's what we have, therefore it's incumbent upon government to provide adequate living conditions.

[PocketRocket]

Kashechewan, Government Failure

I'm not sure I completely agree with this.

I recall a documentary a few years back detailing what was happening with government payments going to some reserves.

It pointed out that in a lot of cases (most??? all???) the government gives money to the reserves, which is then allocated according to the governing body on each reserve. Many of these refused a government audit. Allegations were made, by some members, of blackmail wherein people were told that if they vote for the right guy, they get their house improved, and threatened about "consequences" which may transpire if they vote for the wrong guy.

It pointed out several reserves where the chief and staff had incredibly luxurious homes, and took wonderful trips to Vegas, etc, while other band members on the same reserves were living in huts without indoor plumbing facilities.

Is this a similar case??? I don't know, and so cannot point a finger at either the government, or the reserve chief/staff.

One thing is certain; you don't take drinking water from a spot that is downstream from where you dump your sewage.

That's simply common sense.

[err]

Why did these people have to relocate?  Why do we now hear about this place?  Why are they dependant on a government announcement?

These people are the decendants of the once proud people who ruled this land. Their forefathers were mostly killed off with some of the earliest cases biological warfare that were not taught about in our grade schools. The "white man" brough presents of small-pox infected blankets (whose previous owners were deceased) to the natives. This was a regular practice, and the illness could not be attributed to the white man. The majority of North American natives died from this.

What was left of these once proud people were corralled into "reserves" that the new white rulers were nice enough to give them, and get them out of sight (and mind) of good decent white folk. They weren't allowed to live their old lives of hunting and fishing, as that wasn't going to go on in white man territory, especially as the white man got to pick the "prime land" that they were allowed to live on... Not being able to go back in time, they became dependant on the white man...

Canadians are rich but some Canadians live in the Third World. Why? This disaster is entirely of government making.

Why should good decent Conservative Canadians want to give them money for booze... they don't contribute to OUR society, don't build factories and roads... A good Conservative government should not have the public looking at these poeple's condition in case some riduculous "lefties" would want to give them handouts...

McGuinty tried to ignore them (The Kashechewan band), when it was brought to their attention thrice over the past two years... (documented well in the Toronto Star). It was the NDP that brought their plight to light, so that something could be done about it. The Toronto Star

(See thread I started yesterday on the same topic http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.p...ndpost&p=74159)

[Leader Circle]

Kashechewan, Government Failure

I'm not sure I completely agree with this.

I recall a documentary a few years back detailing what was happening with government payments going to some reserves.

It pointed out that in a lot of cases (most??? all???) the government gives money to the reserves, which is then allocated according to the governing body on each reserve. Many of these refused a government audit. Allegations were made, by some members, of blackmail wherein people were told that if they vote for the right guy, they get their house improved, and threatened about "consequences" which may transpire if they vote for the wrong guy.

It pointed out several reserves where the chief and staff had incredibly luxurious homes, and took wonderful trips to Vegas, etc, while other band members on the same reserves were living in huts without indoor plumbing facilities.

Is this a similar case??? I don't know, and so cannot point a finger at either the government, or the reserve chief/staff.

One thing is certain; you don't take drinking water from a spot that is downstream from where you dump your sewage.

That's simply common sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this is the case on many reserves in Canada. There still exists a dictatorship on many of these reserves. The chief and his cohorts have the cash, while the rest tend to suffer. Corruption on reserves is nothing new. As far as this reserve, they seemed to have screwed the pooch on their outdated water & sewage systems, but whose fault is it? Did they have no government cash? Or did the chief have the cash, but not care??

They have somewhat of a distinct society on reserves today and the only time they look to the government of Canada is when they need a hand out. Noone from the Liberal government has ever cared to do anything about any of this. In the interest of human rights, I guess we should keep feeding them money and not expect them to be accountable for the way they spend the money!! (I am thinking from the left side now!)

[BHS]

These people are the decendants of the once proud people who ruled this land.  Their forefathers were mostly killed off with some of the earliest cases biological warfare that were not taught about in our grade schools.  The "white man" brough presents of small-pox infected blankets (whose previous owners were deceased) to the natives.  This was a regular practice, and the illness could not be attributed to the white man.  The majority of North American natives died from this.

This is a proven fallacy. While whites did in fact infect natives with a variety of European diseases, there is no way to prove intent on their part to do so. The cause of diseases like smallpox was unknown to western science at the time the colonists were handing out infected blankets. The reason your biowarfare theory isn't taught in schools is because it's simply not true.

The rest of your screed is entirely valid. The reserve system is a travesty, as is it's continued perpetuation by both national government and complicit band leadership. Here's hoping those poor beleaugered souls are never returned to the pseudo-communist nightmare situation from which they were rescued.

[err]

I think this is the case on many reserves in Canada. There still exists a dictatorship on many of these reserves. The chief and his cohorts have the cash, while the rest tend to suffer. Corruption on reserves is nothing new. As far as this reserve, they seemed to have screwed the pooch on their outdated water & sewage systems, but whose fault is it? Did they have no government cash? Or did  the chief have the cash, but not care??

Ignorance abounds.....

Dictatorship... you mean "Chief", they way it always was with the natives...

It's awful how they "screwed the pooch"... and didn't take the thinly spread handful of dollars they were given to turn the toxic waste dumps they were given to live on into fertile farm land....

They have somewhat of a distinct society on reserves today and the only time they look to the government of Canada is when they need a hand out. Noone from the Liberal government has ever cared to do anything about any of this.

True... They're almost as bad as the Conservatives.

In the interest of human rights, I guess we should keep feeding them money and not expect them to be accountable for the way they spend the money!! (I am thinking from the left side now!)

Why not truly help them, whatever that entails, rather than just say... "I threw money at them"...

[BHS]

My mistake. It turns out Jefferey Lord Amherst did in fact distribute smallpox laden goods to Pontiac Indians in an attempt to "extirpate" them, though this happened in 1763, long after initial outbreaks of smallpox in the New World had begun killing Indians. Apparently, while the exact cause of smallpox was unknown but the link between the disease and innoculation by exposure to previously exposed material was known.

[Semperfi_dani]

Maybe this is time where we reevaluate the Indian Affairs Act, that might have worked in the 60's but clearly does not work now.

Perhaps it is time to dismantle the concept of Indian Reserve. I have always wondered why aboriginals need to live on the land they are entitled to. Could they not live off the land but lease the land to the private sector and collect money from them, instead of the government, but on their own terms? And the royalties from that land leasing split amongst the aborginals wherever they may live....

Should we not enable aboriginals who live on the reserve to be self sufficient? I am sorry, but I should not have to be told to leave if the water is yellow and making my kid sick. That would be something i would hopefully take my own initive on.

On the other hand, would the government wait so long if this water was like that in a..um..how should we word this...caucasian neighborhood?

[August1991]

Why should good decent Conservative Canadians want to give them money for booze... they don't contribute to OUR society, don't build factories and roads... A good Conservative government should not have the public looking at these poeple's condition in case some riduculous "lefties" would want to give them handouts...

err, you completely miss the point.

I don't mean to question what happened in the past, or who Native Indians are.

My point is this this is what happens in practice when people depend on far-away government bureaucrats to make critical decisions.

I'm sure the people in Indian and Northern Affairs are well-meaning and nice. Nobody deliberately installs water intake valves downstream from an effluence pipe.

The Layton-NDP-Left still believes that having more government bureaucrats will solve the world's problems. And on paper, it may look good. But in practice, Kashechewan is what happens.

This is a classic example of government failure.

[tml12]

Cheers went up in a recreation centre in Sudbury on Thursday night when the people who had to leave their homes on the Kashechewan First Nation found out Ottawa had promised to relocate their town.

CBC

Why did these people have to relocate? Why do we now hear about this place? Why are they dependant on a government announcement?

Canadians are rich but some Canadians live in the Third World. Why? This disaster is entirely of government making.

Native Indians are unfortunately now dependant on government bureaucrats for their livelihood. In the future, many older Canadians will depend on bureaucrats for their livelihood too. As our population grows older, we will hear more such disasters.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course. This was an incident two years in the making.

It's all about where the money and votes are and where they aren't.

Is that fair to these people? No, but that is the sad fact of our political system.

[Guest eureka]

You are correct in that, BHS. I believe, though, that it was the only deliberate incident. Also, it was a "military" affair. It was given to a tribe allied to the French.

[Guest eureka]

Pocket, it seems now that the water does not come from downstream from the sewage discharge. The discharge traveled from a stream into James Bay. Water intake was on a diierent creek.The creek carrying the effluent is blocked and it backs up into the intake source.

Still no excuse and, obviously, faulty or careless engineering. It should still have been attended to and would it would likely have been easier to remove the blockage while restructuring the two.

[err]

You are correct in that, BHS. I believe, though, that it was the only deliberate incident. Also, it was a "military" affair. It was given to a tribe allied to the French.

Eureka,

You seem like you might be the sort to enjoy this book. It was my original introduction to the biological warfare on the North American natives, although it was not the topic of the book, and only mentioned in the book in a few places...

Note that the date of publication is 1791. (It is a searchable PDF book)

It is an absolutely fascinating read... Published in 1791, entitled "Voyages and Travels of an Indian Interpreter and Trader"

Voyages and Travels of an Indian Interpreter and Trader (1791)

[err]

Why should good decent Conservative Canadians want to give them money for booze... they don't contribute to OUR society, don't build factories and roads... A good Conservative government should not have the public looking at these poeple's condition in case some riduculous "lefties" would want to give them handouts...

err, you completely miss the point.

My point is this this is what happens in practice when people depend on far-away government bureaucrats to make critical decisions.

It appears that it is you who completely miss the point August.

Did their being a long distance away make it take two years to penetrate the Liberals' brains when they were informed of it.... When they were informed over and over again... Distance wasn't the issue at all.

The Layton-NDP-Left still believes that having more government bureaucrats will solve the world's problems.  And on paper, it may look good.  But in practice, Kashechewan is what happens.

The Layton-NDP believes that the government's responsibility is to put the priorities of the people first, not just their corporate friends.

Helping these "indians" isn't going to buy them votes, or get them on a corporate board of directors when they are done their term in office, so why would they help them... Except that they've been publicly exposed... and now McGuinty can put on the tears of sorrow for what's happened to these nice "indians".

This is a classic example of government failure.

It is, and for the reasons that I have outlined, rather than those you have supposed.

[Leader Circle]

If you say the sky is blue we have one poster here who is bound and determined to say it's purple. Pretty much a TROLL, who likes to use big bold letters alot.

What an annoying piece of......

Oh well, can't do much about him, except give him the troll ignore!!

[August1991]

The Layton-NDP-Left still believes that having more government bureaucrats will solve the world's problems.  And on paper, it may look good.  But in practice, Kashechewan is what happens.

The Layton-NDP believes that the government's responsibility is to put the priorities of the people first, not just their corporate friends.

Helping these "indians" isn't going to buy them votes, or get them on a corporate board of directors when they are done their term in office, so why would they help them... Except that they've been publicly exposed... and now McGuinty can put on the tears of sorrow for what's happened to these nice "indians".

This is a classic example of government failure.

It is, and for the reasons that I have outlined, rather than those you have supposed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

err, you still don't get it.

What corporations influenced the bureaucrats in Indian and Northern Affairs to forget about the priorities of ordinary people?

Indian and Northern Affairs has an annual budget of almost $10 billion or about almost $8000 for each registered Indian. Surely not all of that money goes to corporations.

err, you seem to have the belief that if we change the politicians, we'll solve the problem. Layton is honest and cares about people whereas Martin or McGuinty are greedy and dishonest and in the pockets of corporations.

In fact, Layton - despite any good intentions he may have - won't make a difference. To use a word that you might understand, the problem is systemic.

err, the Left always has solutions - on paper. And when the solutions don't work in practice, the Left always has X, Y, Z reason to explain the failure. On paper, it looks great and equitable to let competent government bureaucrats make decisions in the interest of all. In practice, you get Kashechewan.

The Left in other countries has understood this basic lesson, and so the Left elsewhere refers to making government smaller but better, lowering taxes and so on. Layton and the NDP appear to be old-style, "tax and spend", big government Leftists.

[err]

The Layton-NDP-Left still believes that having more government bureaucrats will solve the world's problems.  And on paper, it may look good.  But in practice, Kashechewan is what happens.

The Layton-NDP believes that the government's responsibility is to put the priorities of the people first, not just their corporate friends.

Helping these "indians" isn't going to buy them votes, or get them on a corporate board of directors when they are done their term in office, so why would they help them... Except that they've been publicly exposed... and now McGuinty can put on the tears of sorrow for what's happened to these nice "indians".

This is a classic example of government failure.

It is, and for the reasons that I have outlined, rather than those you have supposed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

err, you still don't get it.

What corporations influenced the bureaucrats in Indian and Northern Affairs to forget about the priorities of ordinary people?

I fear the day that I "get" your ideas, August....

My point was that the native Canadians are not a high priority with our govenment (until this recent exposure), and have not been. I was not pointing at the department of Indian and Northern Affairs... I was pointing at the leadership. Our government officials are steered by big business... their policies, spending, etc..

You can argue that I am paranoid about the intentions of our leaders. Then, take a look at our past leaders and see how many boards of directors the now sit on... They are influenced by business, and you'd have to be really really ignorant to think otherwise....

Indian and Northern Affairs has an annual budget of almost $10 billion or about almost $8000 for each registered Indian.  Surely not all of that money goes to corporations.

I never did suggest that this money is going to corporate interests, and it is your deceptive nature to try to pin this position on me.

Your use of statistics to deceive is also well known (like trying to state that California has less murders than Ontario, when actually it has 250% more murders than Ontario). So what percentage of natives that are supported by these programs are "registered".... and what are the real numbers...

And then we must (if we are responsible) ask ... how much is needed ??

Where exactly is this money being spent ??? (at least 15% on lawyers re. land claims)

And then why don't we compare these numbers to how much is spent on us white folk....

err, you seem to have the belief that if we change the politicians, we'll solve the problem.  Layton is honest and cares about people whereas Martin or McGuinty are greedy and dishonest and in the pockets of corporations.

In fact, Layton - despite any good intentions he may have - won't make a difference.  To use a word that you might understand, the problem is systemic.

... The Cult of Impotence.... You are obviously a defeatest, or at least are promoting a defeatist attitude because you don't want to see another approach tried...

If the public believes that all parties are impotent to effect necessary change, then they don't have to do it... However, if the public demands change, it can get it...

err, the Left always has solutions - on paper.  And when the solutions don't work in practice, the Left always has X, Y, Z reason to explain the failure.  On paper, it looks great and equitable to let competent government bureaucrats make decisions in the interest of all.  In practice, you get Kashechewan.

And how is this any different than the Right ????

The Left in other countries has understood this basic lesson, and so the Left elsewhere refers to making government smaller but better, lowering taxes and so on.  Layton and the NDP appear to be old-style, "tax and spend", big government Leftists.

If you are referring to England, Tony Blair's government is not the "left"....

If you endorse the defeatist attitude espoused by the Conservative party, the Fraser Institute, et al, that helping the poor doesn't help the poor (and so on), then you accept the failure of government to represent its people. ...

So lets not vote for the kind of government that will fail us....

[August1991]

My point was that the native Canadians are not a high priority with our govenment (until this recent exposure), and have not been. I was not pointing at the department of Indian and Northern Affairs... I was pointing at the leadership. Our government officials are steered by big business... their policies, spending, etc..

There is an entire federal department filled with government employees with a budget of over $9 billion with the primary mandate of taking care of native peoples - registered Indians. What more of a priority do you want?

You can argue that I am paranoid about the intentions of our leaders. Then, take a look at our past leaders and see how many boards of directors the now sit on... They are influenced by business, and you'd have to be really really ignorant to think otherwise....

You seem to imagine political leaders take every decision. That's not how a vast organization such as our federal government operates. Laws are passed with regulations stipulating what powers are derogated to bureaucrats. Politicians set broad policy; it is left to individual civil servants to implement it. For the most part, in Canada, these people are all well-meaning, although thety may have differences of opinion.

I never did suggest that this money is going to corporate interests, and it is your deceptive nature to try to pin this position on me.

err, I was trying to get you away from a theoretical world and bring you down to the real world. You claimed that our politicians followed corporate interests and not the interests of ordinary people. Well, show me that's the case for Indian and Northern Affairs.

Your use of statistics to deceive is also well known (like trying to state that California has less murders than Ontario, when actually it has 250% more murders than Ontario). So what percentage of natives that are supported by these programs are "registered".... and what are the real numbers...

I was able to find that in 1995, Canada had about 600,000 "registered Indians" or Treaty Indians". (This is the correct term - it refers to a person who is covered by the Indian Act.) In 2004, the budget of INA was about $9 billion.

[incidentally, I work with statistics daily and so I take them seriously. The claim I made about California was that a Canadian has more chance of being murdered than a white Californian - statistics to which I provided links. eureka correctly said that we should compare white Canadians and white Americans - true, but that point begs the whole question of North American crime statistics.]

And then we must (if we are responsible) ask ... how much is needed ??

Where exactly is this money being spent ??? (at least 15% on lawyers re. land claims)

And then why don't we compare these numbers to how much is spent on us white folk....

err, I don't know where the money goes - but believe, we don't spend anything near as much on white people.

But you are right to raise the issue. Our Canadian federal government gets enough of our money now. In fact, it gets too much. We must rethink the way government operates, what it can do and what it can't do.

If you are referring to England, Tony Blair's government is not the "left"....

If you endorse the defeatist attitude espoused by the Conservative party, the Fraser Institute, et al, that helping the poor doesn't help the poor (and so on), then you accept the failure of government to represent its people. ...

I would not call Tony Blair defeatist, nor would I call him right-wing. But he is certainly not a Layton-NDP, tax-and-spend Leftist (to use a crude term).

Despite the partisan rhetoric in the US, the Democrats have essentially changed. So too the Spanish Left. Most of Eastern Europe's "Left" is in the process of figuring this out. The Irish and NZ have adopted this approach.

In Canada, Bob Rae has been shunned by fellow News Democrats because he dared to raise the issue.

Giving more money to government to hire more people won't work. We don't need more government. We need smarter government. For the moment, the only way to start to solve this problem is to stop feeding money to bureaucrats.

Kashechewan is the perfect example.

[err]

My point was that the native Canadians are not a high priority with our govenment (until this recent exposure), and have not been. I was not pointing at the department of Indian and Northern Affairs... I was pointing at the leadership. Our government officials are steered by big business... their policies, spending, etc..

There is an entire federal department filled with government employees with a budget of over $9 billion with the primary mandate of taking care of native peoples - registered Indians. What more of a priority do you want?

Having a chequebook and spending wisely are two different matters. Critical issues of health that have been brought to the table for a few years consecutively... should be noted. If the bureaucratic process prevents the department from doing its job effectively, then change should be implemented. The kind of health risks that the Kashechewan natives underwent are not forgivable easily. I would say we need an investigation into how this problem was ignored for so long.

You can argue that I am paranoid about the intentions of our leaders. Then, take a look at our past leaders and see how many boards of directors the now sit on... They are influenced by business, and you'd have to be really really ignorant to think otherwise....

You seem to imagine political leaders take every decision. That's not how a vast organization such as our federal government operates. Laws are passed with regulations stipulating what powers are derogated to bureaucrats. Politicians set broad policy; it is left to individual civil servants to implement it. For the most part, in Canada, these people are all well-meaning, although thety may have differences of opinion.

Those at the helm are ultimately responsible. They should be able to trust those to whom responsibilities are delegated to, and there should be a system of accountability. Politicians shouldn't "set broad policy" and then take a nap for a few months, or years as this case would have...

I never did suggest that this money is going to corporate interests, and it is your deceptive nature to try to pin this position on me.

err, I was trying to get you away from a theoretical world and bring you down to the real world. You claimed that our politicians followed corporate interests and not the interests of ordinary people. Well, show me that's the case for Indian and Northern Affairs.

It isn't exactly difficult to come up with cases where this department failed in its mandate. However, could you imagine McGuinty coming to the people of Ontario saying "We have to spend more money helping these Indians, maybe up to a Billion dollars".... No... It is more likely that he'll try to sweep such issues under the carpet and hope they go away...

And then we must (if we are responsible) ask ... how much is needed ??

Where exactly is this money being spent ??? (at least 15% on lawyers re. land claims)

And then why don't we compare these numbers to how much is spent on us white folk....

err, I don't know where the money goes - but believe, we don't spend anything near as much on white people.

Paleface have many millions.... cheaper to service them in volume.... Water treatment plant for a few hundred is more expensive per gallon than a large city one... Similar with schools, medical facilities, etc...

But you are right to raise the issue.  Our Canadian federal government gets enough of our money now.  In fact, it gets too much.  We must rethink the way government operates, what it can do and what it can't do.

We must not think of ourselves as impotent to do that which must be done... but think in a determined way such that it does....

[err]

Continued....

If you are referring to England, Tony Blair's government is not the "left"....

If you endorse the defeatist attitude espoused by the Conservative party, the Fraser Institute, et al, that helping the poor doesn't help the poor (and so on), then you accept the failure of government to represent its people. ...

I would not call Tony Blair defeatist, nor would I call him right-wing. But he is certainly not a Layton-NDP, tax-and-spend Leftist (to use a crude term).

Blair is not left wing at all. Not even slightly.... He's a Tory who doesnt promote left-wing policies at all....

I'm not saying that he is defeatist... You are. You believe the Tory tripe that "smaller is better" in every case. You don't believe that government can help the Indians, because of the "systemic" problems inherent in our bureaucracy... If you don't believe it can be improved, then who's going to bother improving it... If you've accepted shit sandwiches, why should they go out and buy tuna....

Giving more money to government to hire more people won't work.  We don't need more government.  We need smarter government.  For the moment, the only way to start to solve this problem is to stop feeding money to bureaucrats.

Killing programs isn't "smarter government", or better government. The Fraser institute (and Conservative party) would say that you should give the monies spent on the poor and on government programs to businesses and the investor class.... And they sell people like you on their ideas that money should only go to these groups.... and you fall for it....

Kashechewan is the perfect example.

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't look out for the Native Canadians because "all that money doesn't help"...????

[Argus]

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't look out for the Native Canadians because "all that money doesn't help"...????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is there any possible doubt that all that money doesn't help? That having government bureacrats in charge of every aspect of their lives (as the NDP would do for all of us) has turned them into a poverty stricken group of dependant personalities who can do nothing without the government telling them how and when and why?

I mean, compare natives on the reserves to immigrants, most of whom are economic immigrants (and refugees, who are also mostly economic refugees). These people recognize that they have nothing, and will never have anything if they stay where they are. They have the drive and perseverence to get themselves, somehow, into a country like Canada, where with hard work, they can make something of themselves.

The natives are already here. They get free education, and free university education, along with all sorts of preferential programs from government. What is their excuse for sitting their on welfare, generation after generation? To preserve their culture? Give me a break. They've been reduced to drones sucking on big brother's teat, with no idea what to do with themselves to improve their lives except hold out their hands for more.

[err]

Are you suggesting that we shouldn't look out for the Native Canadians because "all that money doesn't help"...????

Is there any possible doubt that all that money doesn't help? That having government bureacrats in charge of every aspect of their lives (as the NDP would do for all of us) has turned them into a poverty stricken group of dependant personalities who can do nothing without the government telling them how and when and why?

Are you on drugs ??? The natives, whose land and lives were stolen from them by the white man, have been put on "reserves", usually land that white man would not live on due to toxins in the earth, unsuitablity for habitation by white man, etc... They cannot practice their traditional lifestyle because they are penned in like animals in the zoo....

Our government has made efforts over the years to help with integration, and assistance with education, housing, etc... The government has not "turned them into a poverty stricken group.... "

I mean, compare natives on the reserves to immigrants, most of whom are economic immigrants (and refugees, who are also mostly economic refugees). These people recognize that they have nothing, and will never have anything if they stay where they are. They have the drive and perseverence to get themselves, somehow, into a country like Canada, where with hard work, they can make something of themselves.

Compare monkeys in the jungle to monkeys in the zoo ??

The natives are already here. They get free education, and free university education, along with all sorts of preferential programs from government. What is their excuse for sitting their on welfare, generation after generation? To preserve their culture? Give me a break. They've been reduced to drones sucking on big brother's teat, with no idea what to do with themselves to improve their lives except hold out their hands for more.

They can't hunt or fish and live as their ancestors did. They are a once proud people, forced to sit in a cage.... Should they aspire to be just like you... or "successful" according to our society's standards ??? You'd have to be pretty simple to see this situation as a simple one....

[Argus]

Is there any possible doubt that all that money doesn't help? That having government bureacrats in charge of every aspect of their lives (as the NDP would do for all of us) has turned them into a poverty stricken group of dependant personalities who can do nothing without the government telling them how and when and why?

Are you on drugs ???

Not to my knowledge, but glad you care.

The natives, whose land and lives were stolen from them by the white man,

Oh boo hoo. Cry me a river. We're talking almost two hundred years ago. Get over it. Everyone's land was "stolen" by someone else sometime in the last few centuries.

have been put on "reserves", usually land that white man would not live on due to toxins in the earth, unsuitablity for habitation by white man, etc...  They cannot practice their traditional lifestyle because they are penned in like animals in the zoo....

Zoos have bars and walls. There is nothing keeping them on that land. That was my point about the immigrants. They see they have no future, and go through enormous hardships and efforts to go live somewhere else where their families and descendants will have a better chance. The natives just squat there in the dirt with no hope, getting drunk and holding out their hand for more money.

Our government has made efforts over the years to help with integration, and assistance with education, housing, etc...  The government has not "turned them into a poverty stricken group.... "

The best thing we could do for the natives would be to eliminate the indian affairs, or native affairs, or whatever they're calling themselves these days and buy every indian a condo in an urban centre.

The natives are already here. They get free education, and free university education, along with all sorts of preferential programs from government. What is their excuse for sitting their on welfare, generation after generation? To preserve their culture? Give me a break. They've been reduced to drones sucking on big brother's teat, with no idea what to do with themselves to improve their lives except hold out their hands for more.

They can't hunt or fish and live as their ancestors did. They are a once proud people, forced to sit in a cage....

All of our ancestors hunted and fished. And damned few of us can make a living that way today. There is absolutely nothing forcing them to stay on the reserves. They can move just as easily as you or I, and a lot easier than third world types did to get here.

Should they aspire to be just like you... or "successful" according to our society's standards ??? 

Why not? Why not get a job, earn a living, get some self respect, contribute to society? You can't do that in a city? They're doing better on welfare getting drunk out in the woods?

You'd have to be pretty simple to see this situation as a simple one....

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Sometimes the simple answers work.