masterkush Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 that is why you fight and die in Iraq no sense why didnt they listen to greenspan 6 years ago america's arrogance has done this every thing is broken broken levees broken homes broken teeth and broken bones every thing is broken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 So anyways, Do the grown-ups have anything else to say about Greenspan being worried about the US economy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 his poetry may have merits, but i think e.e. cummings did a great disservice to the english language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Dear Toro, Do the grown-ups have anything else to say about Greenspan being worried about the US economy?While browsing for info on the subject, I found a website article by the U of Florida's Economics dept. head, and he seems to back up August1991's position that the US gov't cannot go bankrupt. ( I didn't save or remember the link, it was a couple of days ago) However, I think both the learned professor and August1991 make a presumption in their analyses, and that is that the gov't intends to pay off the deficit, or end it's being used as a 'free, capital generating device'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterkush Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Dear Toro,Do the grown-ups have anything else to say about Greenspan being worried about the US economy? While browsing for info on the subject, I found a website article by the U of Florida's Economics dept. head, and he seems to back up August1991's position that the US gov't cannot go bankrupt. ( I didn't save or remember the link, it was a couple of days ago) However, I think both the learned professor and August1991 make a presumption in their analyses, and that is that the gov't intends to pay off the deficit, or end it's being used as a 'free, capital generating device'. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> stop reading 60% politacally correct diatribes you wont learn this in school NEOCON ECONOMETRICS 101 As Iran war looms ever so closer A look at why America would want to fight iran seems inorder concerning this thread ~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Bourse; Iran’s death-warrant ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Iran’s future oil and natural gas wealth foreshadow its growth into a regional competitor to Israel as well as an energy-independent powerhouse. Their stated intention to sell resources via their own, homegrown bourse, is a direct threat to the existing economic system. It would greatly increase trade in petro-euros and send the dollar into a downward spiral. The importance of this cannot be overstated. The heart-and-soul of the empire is the Greenback; that flaccid, debt-ridden hoax that props-up the entire rickety structure of state-terror. The $8 trillion dollars of accumulated debt that underwrites the greenback requires that the world continue to buy oil in dollars. The transition from dollars to petro-euros is a direct assault on a system that forces the lavish debt of the wealthiest nations onto the shoulders of the world’s poorest people. If the dollar falls from its place of prominence then the global power-structure would shift dramatically from the hands of western elites to the nations with the most resources. America’s corporate and financial giants will never allow that to happen, not as long as there’s one missile left in an American silo. The house of cards that america has built .with it's 8 trillion$debt predicated on a hoax.underpinned only by the fact that oil is bought with Us curency,will start to finally fall apart next year when Iran starts to sell it's resources on it's own homegrown bourse(stk mrkt).How long would it take the filthy carpet bagging world bank rollers to switch to euros .with the US $ stuck to a 8 trillion$$ BALL and chain.And if America over steps It's arrogance and does attack IRAN,Russia and china,will see to it that IRan doesn't ever have to worry about america again.in fact they are counting on America attacking. they know it is weak weary and desperate. The war drums beat in AMERICA loud and clear.it is the elite rich of America that beats them the loudest.It is the poor, destitute, that will die for them.Not for freedom of america but for bungling morons that could not keep their greedy hearts from borrowing their way into power. if America would of listened to greenspan 6 years ago ,when he said no more borrowing ,instead of going on a 6 trillion$ spending spree.the future would have had a much brighter outlook .indeed 8 trillion $ + another estimated 6 trillion$ in personal debt.when it all starts to unravel ,you better find a cave to hide in,there will indeed be "A Hard RAINS A Gona Fall" B. Dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 This Iran oil-trading thing is utterly bizarre. Its such a joke that its barely worth the time to respond. I have had many, many conversations with people in the oil business and investment business over the years, and never have I ever heard anyone, anyone at all, ever mention this as a potential problem. Not once. Another very, very odd myth put forth by the extreme left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterkush Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 This Iran oil-trading thing is utterly bizarre. Its such a joke that its barely worth the time to respond. I have had many, many conversations with people in the oil business and investment business over the years, and never have I ever heard anyone, anyone at all, ever mention this as a potential problem. Not once. Another very, very odd myth put forth by the extreme left. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the only persons on this planet, that would try to deny it, are NEOCON NAZIS. ask your friends directly about it.Tell them to look into it.I assure you the answer will be utterly one of shock and awe ! try googling it .Do something usefull ,instead of dribbling on about how you know everybody thats important.And you never heard about it,so it must not be accurate.You won't find this on the front page news ,nor in the education system. But it is however accurate and factually sound. Also I am a Canadian, I have no left, right, middle ,stand on the US . But I do know about this ,Iran is getting ready to launch it's own stk mrkt, and plans to sell its resources on it ,based on a euro model.And any Good Account can tell you the rest of the story.including it's implications concerning the U.S. economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 This Iran oil-trading thing is utterly bizarre. Its such a joke that its barely worth the time to respond. I have had many, many conversations with people in the oil business and investment business over the years, and never have I ever heard anyone, anyone at all, ever mention this as a potential problem. Not once. Another very, very odd myth put forth by the extreme left. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the only persons on this planet, that would try to deny it, are NEOCON NAZIS. ask your friends directly about it.Tell them to look into it.I assure you the answer will be utterly one of shock and awe ! try googling it .Do something usefull ,instead of dribbling on about how you know everybody thats important.And you never heard about it,so it must not be accurate.You won't find this on the front page news ,nor in the education system. But it is however accurate and factually sound. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No Junior. I've heard about the Tehran Bourse. What you're telling me is not news. But your analysis is one from the far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far left. Its not one to be taken seriously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterkush Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 This Iran oil-trading thing is utterly bizarre. Its such a joke that its barely worth the time to respond. I have had many, many conversations with people in the oil business and investment business over the years, and never have I ever heard anyone, anyone at all, ever mention this as a potential problem. Not once. Another very, very odd myth put forth by the extreme left. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the only persons on this planet, that would try to deny it, are NEOCON NAZIS. ask your friends directly about it.Tell them to look into it.I assure you the answer will be utterly one of shock and awe ! try googling it .Do something usefull ,instead of dribbling on about how you know everybody thats important.And you never heard about it,so it must not be accurate.You won't find this on the front page news ,nor in the education system. But it is however accurate and factually sound. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No Junior. I've heard about the Tehran Bourse. What you're telling me is not news. But your analysis is one from the far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far left. Its not one to be taken seriously <{POST_SNAPBACK}> GEEZ golly HOMER Can you be a bit more informative Doesn't take a genius to understand the implications what part don't you understand.is it this the part where if they start selling oil in euros ,the rest of the world will jump on the bandwagon? I assure you they will the american dollar is too weak and tied to too big a debt to sustain itself buying A MILLION BARRELS OF OIL AT 60$ A BARREL AND SELLING IT IN EUROPE WOULD MAKE YOU LOSE MONEY ON THE OIL .AS THE DEFLATION ON THE US $ WILL BE ASTOUNDING . YOU ARE IN FOR SHOCK AND AWE IN DOWN TOWN usa YOU ARE A CREDIT RISK THE WORLD DOESN'T WANT AMERICAN MONEY ,THEY WANT TO SELL IT OFF FOR EUROS. your tax base is all but gone and your over due for a terrorist cold clocking in downtown USA it cvant be any clearer I tried to help you so you can understnd Gm delfi bankrupt 185,000 jobs 25$ an hour pay gone for good this week FORD and GM teetering on the brink stk worth junk ITs time to pay the piper and its not going to look pretty in what is probably americas most desperate time in her existance , she will be proded into iran, to save face . Little does she know what awaits her. your leaders are drunks that stagger in and out of drunken memory lapses and are the puppets of your elite with off shore bank accounts ,and don't pay taxes It's all around you ,the decay of a nation. a testamony how to rape the land. EVERYTHING IS BROKEN BROKEN Levees broken homes broken teeth and broken bones everything is broken especially the economy how could a Nation with such a promising start end up destitute and broken when you hear on the news that IRANs bourse is up and running you better take heed and bail out of US funds or you will wiped out soon after any way if I see any more people as stuned as you are on this thread ill leave another post to better try and clear it up im pressed for time right now take care The closer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 GEEZ golly HOMERCan you be a bit more informative Doesn't take a genius to understand the implications what part dodn't understand <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, I "dod" understand. When I first heard this idea that trading oil in Euros will somehow lead to the collapse the US economy, I laughed. I thought they were joking. But no, they were serious. The total value of oil traded is a fraction to the total volume of all securities, contracts, commodities, currencies, bonds, etc. Removing oil from the daily volume of total trading would barely be noticeable, let alone have a massive effect on the flows of currencies. Second, the majority of oil transactions by dollar volume already do not occur in dollars. Dollars are merely a reference point. If an Italian oil company is going to sell to a Swiss buyer, the transaction will be in euros and franks, not dollars. Finally, why would anyone trade in Iran, considering the mullahs haven't got a particulary good record on upholding contract rights, which are critical for the smooth functioning of a futures exchange? Certainly, Saudi Arabia would not, which, if you have a sliver of understanding of the region, you'd know why. And now I await the unusual response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterkush Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 nice work but you forgot one detail nice writing style by the way homer the hoax, is that the American green back's value is based on one thing and only one thing . that oil is traded in US currency. your debt is not based on your ability to pay. your trade imbalances dont even show up on the radar once oil is traded in euros the whole ball o wax unravels remember who taught you a lesson here today ,and if you have any wits about you ,you'll dump the green back prior to the slide. buy gold or short the market on sound stk As you mentioned it wont be the colapse of the american market only china and japan,among others as well colapse is a loose term ,the economy will still be around but it will take 1) higher taxes 2) deflation probably in the neighborhood of 5:1 ration on the $ 3) and would probably force canada ,mexico and usa to come up with our own euro(japan and china possibly as well) this may possibly be implemented prior to an oil~euro, to ward of some of the effects. for reference Iran’s future oil and natural gas wealth foreshadow its growth into a regional competitor to Israel as well as an energy-independent powerhouse. Their stated intention to sell resources via their own, homegrown bourse, is a direct threat to the existing economic system. It would greatly increase trade in petro-euros and send the dollar into a downward spiral. The importance of this cannot be overstated. The heart-and-soul of the empire is the Greenback; that flaccid, debt-ridden hoax that props-up the entire rickety structure of state-terror. The $8 trillion dollars of accumulated debt that underwrites the greenback requires that the world continue to buy oil in dollars. The transition from dollars to petro-euros is a direct assault on a system that forces the lavish debt of the wealthiest nations onto the shoulders of the world’s poorest people. If the dollar falls from its place of prominence then the global power-structure would shift dramatically from the hands of western elites to the nations with the most resources. America’s corporate and financial giants will never allow that to happen, not as long as there’s one missile left in an American silo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Dear Toro, I should think that you are wasting your time feeding the troll. As 'it' states, it is neither left, nor right, just a disruption. Not a fanatic, just a phoney. However, since this is the thread the rest of the real posters are debating on, When I first heard this idea that trading oil in Euros will somehow lead to the collapse the US economy, I laughed. I thought they were joking. But no, they were serious.I do believe it is serious, as it relates to the supremacy (and the value) of the USD. While you are entirely correct with..The total value of oil traded is a fraction to the total volume of all securities, contracts, commodities, currencies, bonds, etc. Removing oil from the daily volume of total trading would barely be noticeable, let alone have a massive effect on the flows of currencies.it is the confidence in the dollar that is in peril. And, with the US' penchant for racking up debt, both in budget and trade deficits, any undermining of it's apparent value, and investor confidence, is extremely important. (Though it is merely a 'cog in the machine', it is nevertheless an important factor, and connected to other things) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 thelonius Don't get me wrong. I have owned gold for a long time now as a hedge against both the dollar as well other paper currencies depreciating, which inevitably had to happen. I was buying gold heavily a day after the 2002 Congressional elections since the Republicans all but told you that they were going to crack the dollar. I am still concerned about the value of the dollar, though less concerned than a year ago as interest rates in the US are the highest in the G3 and going higher - that's what you'd expect to happen when you run such large deficits. Also, since 65% of the global reserves are dollars, its prudent for central banks to diversify into other currencies. But you have to understand the genesis of this idea and the motivations of Iran. The idea of pricing oil in euros came out of OPEC when the euro was soaring against dollar. Since the dollar was falling, so was the value of oil OPEC was receiving. But I always thought that a collapsing dollar was untenable to Europe and Japan since their economies were so weak, and thus, they too would do would follow the lead of the US and devalue their currencies. When this happens, the value of all hard commodities rises (all things being equal) against paper currencies, i.e. gold, silver, nickel, copper, real estate, oil, natural gas, coffee, sugar, etc. This is what has happened, and the value of oil in euros also soared. This idea gained prominence when it was floated by the Saudi minister of energy. Now you don't hear this anymore, at least not from credible sources. As for Iran using euros - of course they want to use euros! The US has singled them out as one of the "axis of evil." Why would they want to transact in a currency of a country that is openly hostile to them and invaded one of the countries that was also part of the "axis of evil". As for an oil exchange in Iran, for the same reasons, why would Iran want to have anything to do with the NYMEX where oil is traded? Iran had billions of dollars seized by America after the hostage crisis. Why would they risk having to own futures contracts domiciled in America? Also, it makes commercial sense and is perfectly rational for Iran to try to develop an oil exchange. Personally, I support the idea fully. The more they're exposed to the benefits of capitalism, the more likely they are to reform their society. That's a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theloniusfleabag Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Dear Toro, As for Iran using euros -I hadn't heard that they were considering it, but it makes sense. I posted a link that Iraq was switching to the euro...http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/1...q.un.euro.reut/ The more they're exposed to the benefits of capitalism, the more likely they are to reform their society. That's a good thing.You'd think that, but not really. The middle east is old. Really, really old. Capitalism isn't new. Trade isn't new. Only secularism for Iran will change (or 'reform') their society. Asking them (or forcing them) to put Mammon before God (or Allah) isn't a realistic scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toro Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 Remember, the euro is only 7 years old. And the biggest nations in the eurozone are violating their own covenants - Italy, with a deficit of over 6% of GDP (more than twice that of America BTW) being by far the biggest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollar Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Remember, the euro is only 7 years old. And the biggest nations in the eurozone are violating their own covenants - Italy, with a deficit of over 6% of GDP (more than twice that of America BTW) being by far the biggest. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bill gates annouced hes transfering his money to euros ,his assesment is that the US $ will be worth very little in the near future deficits are not what will hurt America it is the $ that drops from prominence being replaced by the Euro http://www.rense.com/general68/billgatesdumps.htm with bill Gates dumping the Dollar and many nations quickly following suit the AMerican $ is in for a spiraling down turn in the near future many people under estimate the problem that we face many people will be losing their shirts the wisest have their money in gold and good stock portfolios Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollar Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Dear Toro,I should think that you are wasting your time feeding the troll. As 'it' states, it is neither left, nor right, just a disruption. Not a fanatic, just a phoney. However, since this is the thread the rest of the real posters are debating on, When I first heard this idea that trading oil in Euros will somehow lead to the collapse the US economy, I laughed. I thought they were joking. But no, they were serious.I do believe it is serious, as it relates to the supremacy (and the value) of the USD. While you are entirely correct with..The total value of oil traded is a fraction to the total volume of all securities, contracts, commodities, currencies, bonds, etc. Removing oil from the daily volume of total trading would barely be noticeable, let alone have a massive effect on the flows of currencies.it is the confidence in the dollar that is in peril. And, with the US' penchant for racking up debt, both in budget and trade deficits, any undermining of it's apparent value, and investor confidence, is extremely important. (Though it is merely a 'cog in the machine', it is nevertheless an important factor, and connected to other things)you seem stunted and retarded once oil goes all else goes with it are that dumb jeez some people are basket cases <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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