The ugly hate-filled Left

[Toro]

A prediction:  This will backfire on the hate-filled left.

It did. That's part of the reason why Bush was re-elected.

[Toro]

Local government in Louisiana, the second poorest state in the union, and New Orleans, one of the poorest cities in the nation, were supposed to build and maintain multi-billion dollar dikes and levees? Sorry, bubba, but that's as farcical as all your other blustering excuses. The US Corps of Engineers was responsible for those dikes and levees.

Let someone living in the South clue someone in from Ottawa (even though we're really stupid down here. D'oh!) You are right, the Army Corp is responsible for the levees. But not solely.

As someone else explained it to me this morning...

You have to understand just how corrupt and screwy the Louisiana government is and HAS been for the past 125 years. This nonsense dates back to Huey Long and even before. A few short years ago when Edwards was running for governor against David Duke (remember now that Edwards was under federal indictment for accepting bribes) his campaign bumper stickers said "VOTE FOR THE CROOK---IT'S IMPORTANT"... Millions and millions of federal dollars were appropriated for levee repairs since 1980. What happened to the money? The levee board bought a private jet, hosted four super bowl parties, and built a reception center which detailed how the levees work. Not a dime was spent on bolstering the levees themselves. Not to mention, I'm SURE that many of the levee board members had their pockets lined rather nicely.

[crazymf]

Ahem!!!!

The radical lefties scrapping with the radical righties. Deadlocked in mortal combat, while nothing productive gets done at all.

Waste of time folks.

[Argus]

Local government in Louisiana, the second poorest state in the union, and New Orleans, one of the poorest cities in the nation, were supposed to build and maintain multi-billion dollar dikes and levees? Sorry, bubba, but that's as farcical as all your other blustering excuses. The US Corps of Engineers was responsible for those dikes and levees.

Let someone living in the South clue someone in from Ottawa (even though we're really stupid down here. D'oh!) You are right, the Army Corp is responsible for the levees. But not solely.

As someone else explained it to me this morning...

You have to understand just how corrupt and screwy the Louisiana government is and HAS been for the past 125 years. This nonsense dates back to Huey Long and even before. A few short years ago when Edwards was running for governor against David Duke (remember now that Edwards was under federal indictment for accepting bribes) his campaign bumper stickers said "VOTE FOR THE CROOK---IT'S IMPORTANT"... Millions and millions of federal dollars were appropriated for levee repairs since 1980. What happened to the money? The levee board bought a private jet, hosted four super bowl parties, and built a reception center which detailed how the levees work. Not a dime was spent on bolstering the levees themselves. Not to mention, I'm SURE that many of the levee board members had their pockets lined rather nicely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably some mailmen took bribes too. So what? Your federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year, or spent on insider building contracts for unneeded pork. What's that got to do with Bush slashing flood protection funds? And as I've asked you many times so far - still unanswered - give me a reason for those cuts other than the fact New Orleans is full of poor black democrats.

[Toro]

Probably some mailmen took bribes too. So what? Your federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year, or spent on insider building contracts for unneeded pork. What's that got to do with Bush slashing flood protection funds? And as I've asked you many times so far - still unanswered - give me a reason for those cuts other than the fact New Orleans is full of poor black democrats.

Right. Thank you for continuing to make Montgomery's point.

And I've answered your question.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.p...opic=3829&st=45

[Toro]

Ahem!!!!

The radical lefties scrapping with the radical righties. Deadlocked in mortal combat, while nothing productive gets done at all.

Waste of time folks.

Except that I supported Gore and Kerry.

Oh, and BTW, yesterday I bought food and water and loaded food and water on a semi to New Orleans yesterday. I hope you've donated something.

[Cartman]

Argus has this quaint notion that it is the citizens of Alaska’s responsibility to pay for a levee protecting the people of New Orleans. Because, as we all know, when people refuse to take an interest in their own well-being, it immediately becomes everybody else’s responsibility to pay for their excesses and indifference.

You really cannot make this argument unless you are an anarchist. You are using an individualist anarchist argument by saying that people should not have to assist one another in emergencies (i.e. Alaska and NO). But then you seem to be a Bush supporter. Last time I looked, Bush spent tax dollars and he is certainly no anarchist. Do you not see how illogical this is?

Maybe Argus has this "quaint" notion because they call themselves the United States of America not the Atomized Individuals of Anarchyland.

[Cartman]

BTW, this thread title is really inappropriate because it falsely stereotypes an entire group of people when Greg has clearly asked us to be more polite.

[Montgomery Burns]

Argus:

Perhaps we simply understand the political system better than you do. Certainly neither of you evidences the slightest awareness of anything I could remotely term political realities in the United States.

I understand a few things about the responsibility of local, state and federal authorities in times of national emergency. The federal govt comes on the scene at the invitation of local and state authorities. It's established under the Posse Comitatus Act. The governor of Louisiana WAS SUPPOSED TO ASK for federal aid before the crisis so it would be IN PLACE.

I believe that Americans are taught this in grade school, or at the latest, high school.

Louisiana had about, oh, 50 YEARS to built levees that could take the strain of a major hurricane that THEY KNEW WAS COMING. So, unless Bush is really H.G. Wells 'The Time Traveler...'

But according to Argus, everything wrong in the world is Bush and the republican's fault. I suggest you teach us all by standing out in the streets of your hometown with a sandwich board proclaiming this. Then you will have fullfilled your role in life. Please, go! Go now! Educate the masses!

[Montgomery Burns]

Bush is to blame for everything.  No one should ever ever accept personal responsibility.

An interesting pair of sentences given that Bush is well known for refusing to accept blame for _anything_ and that you are among that thankfully small, shrill minority which refuses to allow Bush to be blamed for anything - however obvious his faults, however obvious his errors and neglect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seriously, you've made your point. We know, absolutely everything in this world that is wrong is Bush's fault. It's his fault that it actually takes a few days to fill ships with food, supplies, and people to bring help to the hurricane survivors in the Gulf coast. It's his fault that the feds didn't spend billions of dollars on "the emergency squad" that consists of apparently endless federal funding, magically-now-useful-again-because-they-serve-the-left's-purpose-right-now National Guard troops, and the president sitting in his lair just waiting to push the red button to send them toward whatever trouble happens in this world. It's his fault that Clinton couldn't sign Kyoto because the Senate (which, last time I checked, consists of republicans and democrats) voted 95-0 to not authorize it. It's his fault that real life situations like hurricane disaster relief aren't solved in a quick, half-hour time frame like shows on TV. It's his fault that the looters in NOLA had to take 1500 police that would otherwise be saving lives to go and stop the lawlessness. in fact, it's his fault for just about everything. We get it.

It is interesting that you expect the President to micromanage every state and city operation (a recipe for failure) rather than handle the top problems of the federal govt.

[Montgomery Burns]

Argus:

Your [bush Administration] federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year...

Unfortunately, statements like this are typical of far too many Canadians. Throw their crap at the US - especially when a Republican is President - while blithely ignoring its own federal govt which is one of the most corrupt in the world and steals fantastical sums of money every year.

Mr Pot, the Kettle is calling you.

[Argus]

Probably some mailmen took bribes too. So what? Your federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year, or spent on insider building contracts for unneeded pork. What's that got to do with Bush slashing flood protection funds? And as I've asked you many times so far - still unanswered - give me a reason for those cuts other than the fact New Orleans is full of poor black democrats.

Right. Thank you for continuing to make Montgomery's point.

And I've answered your question.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.p...opic=3829&st=45

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no answer in that link, so I will ask again. And don't whine about what Clinton might have done, or what Roosevelt might have done. Why did the White House slash funding to repair and upgrade the levees and dikes several years running?

[Argus]

Bush is to blame for everything.  No one should ever ever accept personal responsibility.

An interesting pair of sentences given that Bush is well known for refusing to accept blame for _anything_ and that you are among that thankfully small, shrill minority which refuses to allow Bush to be blamed for anything - however obvious his faults, however obvious his errors and neglect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seriously, you've made your point. We know, absolutely everything in this world that is wrong is Bush's fault. It's his fault that it actually takes a few days to fill ships with food, supplies, and people to bring help to the hurricane survivors in the Gulf coast.

My understanding is the working plan was for those ships to already be filled and prepositioned so they could assist immediately. Why was this not done? Anything to do with the way the Bush govenment gutted FEMA and used it to reward their friends with political appointments?

It's his fault that the feds didn't spend billions of dollars on "the emergency squad" that consists of apparently endless federal funding, magically-now-useful-again-because-they-serve-the-left's-purpose-right-now National Guard troops, and the president sitting in his lair jus

You're blathering like a drunk. There were plenty of people who could have assisted, and untold billions has been devoted to emergency planning and prepation. So why wasn't it ready?

[Argus]

Argus:

Your [bush Administration] federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year...

Unfortunately, statements like this are typical of far too many Canadians. Throw their crap at the US - especially when a Republican is President - while blithely ignoring its own federal govt which is one of the most corrupt in the world and steals fantastical sums of money every year.

Mr Pot, the Kettle is calling you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The federal liberal party is certainly corrupt, and there is certainly corruption and favoritism in Canadian politics - as anywhere else. There are no perfect states. But over the past oh say twenty five years, politics in America has come more and more to be about money. Senators now spend most of their time while in office raising money rather than legislating. Elections cost so much that fund raising has become like an arms race, with senators, congressmen and the White House devoting extraordinary amounts of time to raising money. And because there's so much money that needs raising they can't be wasting time with poor people, or even the middle class. It's the corporate lobbyists who hold the cheque books and call the shots. Hell, the corporate lobbyists actually write some of your bills, which are then passed by their obedient lackeys in the congress and senate. Even the ones not written by lobbyists are certainly written for them or with their strong input. I think you're problem is you don't call it corruption unless you can actually prove that actual laws are being broken. So far as I'm concerned if taxpayers money is being spent for anyone's benefit but the taxpayer that's corruption.

[Riverwind]

Unfortunately, statements like this are typical of far too many Canadians.  Throw their crap at the US - especially when a Republican is President - while blithely ignoring its own federal govt which is one of the most corrupt in the world and steals fantastical sums of money every year.

This is crap. There are a few individuals associated with the governing party that funnelled money into their own pockets or to the liberal party. But the amounts we are talking about is small change compared to the huge sums of money US politicians pocket for their election campaigns (often sacrificing the interests of thie consituants in order to appease some well financed lobby group). A politician that sells their vote to a lobby group is among the most corrupt politican in the world and the US legislature is full of them.

[August1991]

Local government in Louisiana, the second poorest state in the union, and New Orleans, one of the poorest cities in the nation, were supposed to build and maintain multi-billion dollar dikes and levees? Sorry, bubba, but that's as farcical as all your other blustering excuses. The US Corps of Engineers was responsible for those dikes and levees.

Let someone living in the South clue someone in from Ottawa (even though we're really stupid down here. D'oh!) You are right, the Army Corp is responsible for the levees. But not solely.

As someone else explained it to me this morning...

You have to understand just how corrupt and screwy the Louisiana government is and HAS been for the past 125 years. This nonsense dates back to Huey Long and even before. A few short years ago when Edwards was running for governor against David Duke (remember now that Edwards was under federal indictment for accepting bribes) his campaign bumper stickers said "VOTE FOR THE CROOK---IT'S IMPORTANT"... Millions and millions of federal dollars were appropriated for levee repairs since 1980. What happened to the money? The levee board bought a private jet, hosted four super bowl parties, and built a reception center which detailed how the levees work. Not a dime was spent on bolstering the levees themselves. Not to mention, I'm SURE that many of the levee board members had their pockets lined rather nicely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that, Toro. The most intelligent post in this dismal thread.

Probably some mailmen took bribes too. So what? Your federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year, or spent on insider building contracts for unneeded pork. What's that got to do with Bush slashing flood protection funds? And as I've asked you many times so far - still unanswered - give me a reason for those cuts other than the fact New Orleans is full of poor black democrats.

Argus, one of the things I have been thinking about is the difference bewteen the response of NYC firemen and police on the morning of Sep 11 and the response of New Orleans police this past week.

Some government organizations work, and some apparently don't.

[B. Max]

Unfortunately, statements like this are typical of far too many Canadians.  Throw their crap at the US - especially when a Republican is President - while blithely ignoring its own federal govt which is one of the most corrupt in the world and steals fantastical sums of money every year.

This is crap. There are a few individuals associated with the governing party that funnelled money into their own pockets or to the liberal party. But the amounts we are talking about is small change compared to the huge sums of money US politicians pocket for their election campaigns (often sacrificing the interests of thie consituants in order to appease some well financed lobby group). A politician that sells their vote to a lobby group is among the most corrupt politican in the world and the US legislature is full of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be the libranos 100%. They've made careers out of catering to quebec and the GTA at the expense of the rest of the country and mainly alberta.

[Guest eureka]

Does it matter, Toro, what happened under Huey Long or Edwards? The more important issue is the one Argus keeps pushing. That is, that there was $36.5 billion appropriated for the work on the levees and Bush cut it to $9.5 billion. The amounts that were to be freed were, apparently, insufficient for the necessary work to be started and it was therefore abandoned.

The Emergency Response failed badly due, mainly, to its control being placed under a larger office that had other concerns as much as the funding cuts. Emergency Response was before Bush et al, in excellent shape and, as Arguse wrote, had plans in place for part of what was not now done. It had plans for Response everywhere before it fell victim to the phoney war on terror.

Had the wpek on infrastructure commenced some three years ago, it mught well have been far enough advanced for most of this disaster to have been averted. It would have need only repair to the one that cracked and a modest raising of all to seriously mitigate the losses.

I am not with Argus on the race aspect though I have an uncomfortable feeling that it has been part of the problem for a very long time. For the rest, I agree unreservedly with him and leave it to him to express it in his inimitable way.

[Guest eureka]

Are you sure, Montgomery, that American kids learn those things in Grade schools? Could it be something else that is mistaught?

Is it just that you have forgotten what you were taught a year or two ago and are attempting to repeat without benefit of your exercise book?

[Montgomery Burns]

Are you sure, Montgomery, that American kids learn those things in Grade schools? Could it be something else that is mistaught?

Is it just that you have forgotten what you were taught a year or two ago and are attempting to repeat without benefit of your exercise book?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps one of our American friends can answer if the federal govt comes on the scene at the invitation of local and state authorities, and if this is established under the Posse Comitatus Act.

I believe this is standard stuff taught in highschool, maybe even in grade school.

Perhaps that is why you are unaware of it.

[Montgomery Burns]

So Bush called the governor Thursday before the storm urging an evacuation. She did nothing.

It's Bush's fault.

Hundreds of New Orleans city and school buses sat unused in parking lots instead of taking part in the evacuation.

It's Bush's fault.

The levee that broke had just been upgraded. The levees' maintenance is a local responsibility.

It's Bush's fault.

Not one country anywhere in the world that did sign Kyoto is meeting its emissions targets.

It's Bush's fault.

The fan belt went on my car this week.

It's Bush's fault.

For the love of Gaia, people! We must not allow rightwingers to politicize this tragedy by refusing to hold Bush accountable for it!

[Argus]

Probably some mailmen took bribes too. So what? Your federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year, or spent on insider building contracts for unneeded pork. What's that got to do with Bush slashing flood protection funds? And as I've asked you many times so far - still unanswered - give me a reason for those cuts other than the fact New Orleans is full of poor black democrats.

Argus, one of the things I have been thinking about is the difference bewteen the response of NYC firemen and police on the morning of Sep 11 and the response of New Orleans police this past week.

Some government organizations work, and some apparently don't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't be too quick to insult the New Orleans police if I were you. They had a far, far tougher job than the NYC police, swamped by people and water, with no power, their radios and phones often not working, cars flooded out, in the dark, out of contact, with their own homes washed away and their families God knows where, the stress intolerable...

I know that there have been media statements that 2/3rds took off their uniforms and just left, but I've yet to see any kind of solid evidence of this. I do know many, many of them have stayed on the job, basically working 20 hrs a day, since the storm.

In any event, if FEMA isn't working, when it used to, whose fault is that?

[Toro]

Probably some mailmen took bribes too. So what? Your federal government is among the most corrupt in the world. Fantastical sums of money are stolen every year, or spent on insider building contracts for unneeded pork. What's that got to do with Bush slashing flood protection funds? And as I've asked you many times so far - still unanswered - give me a reason for those cuts other than the fact New Orleans is full of poor black democrats.

Right. Thank you for continuing to make Montgomery's point.

And I've answered your question.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.p...opic=3829&st=45

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no answer in that link, so I will ask again. And don't whine about what Clinton might have done, or what Roosevelt might have done. Why did the White House slash funding to repair and upgrade the levees and dikes several years running?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's an answer for you.

Did you watch 60 Minutes tonight? They interviewed the head of the Army Core of Engineers. They asked him what would it have taken to prevent the levees from spilling over in a category 4 or 5 hurricane. He said, $1 billion and 20 years ago. If only Bush had the foresight 20 years ago to know that he was one day going to be President when one of the worst hurricanes would hit the United States, he could have run for President in 1984 and added $1,000,000,000 to fix the problem.

Do you see the irony?

There are some for whom the democratic process is simply too complex.

There are some for whom a flush toilet is too complex.

[Argus]

And I've answered your question.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.p...opic=3829&st=45

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no answer in that link, so I will ask again. And don't whine about what Clinton might have done, or what Roosevelt might have done. Why did the White House slash funding to repair and upgrade the levees and dikes several years running?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you see the irony?

I see you avoiding the question again. Putting in a link to where you also avoided the question is not an answer. I did not ask why the levees and dikes were not never made a major national project so they could withstand a category 5 storm - as they should have been. I asked specifically why Bush cut funding to them.

[Toro]

Look again.