Wild Bill Posted March 25, 2009 Report Posted March 25, 2009 It's called personal responsibility. If he was weak-minded, then that's on him too, or basic genetics. I'm not saying some kids might not have been jerks, but that's completely irrelevent. In our society you don't get to murder people and then try to justify it because people were mean to you. Is there a paedophile who can't honestly claim to have been mistread or molested when younger? Aren't most of the nastier rapists striking back at some kind of real or perceived mistreatement by their mother, or women in general. Should we excuse Marc Lepine for killing all those women because they wouldn't date him?Tough noogies to all of them. What happened to you - hey, we can sympathise - but that in NO WAY absolves you of complete and total blame for the actions you take which hurt others. If you think otherwise you're on the road to Somalia or Liberia or other failed states. Once again you've totally missed my point! Funny how you keep doing that. In no way have I suggested that there is no personal responsibility. A murderer has to pay the price, period. It might surprise you that I have always supported the death penalty. Maybe it wasn't his fault he was made crazy. It doesn't matter. He's broken and will always be a threat to others. I'm talking about holding bullies responsible for the consequences of THEIR actions! As for 'weak minded' I guarantee that when you were 8 or 9 years old a sufficiently ambitious bully would have had no problem screwing up you or anyone else! Severe bullying is quite common in some circles today. Unless you happen to be some kind of superman I can't imagine you being immune. Besides, lots of kids are born less strong minded than others. Do they deserve to be driven what by definition is insane by such bullying? By avoiding any talk of responsibility on the part of the bullies you seem to be suggesting that they are either engaged in harmless childhood fun or that their victims were somehow too weak to handle it so therefore deserved it. I can only see two possibilities as to how someone could hold such a view. Either they were lucky enough to never have experienced severe bullying as a child, thus lacking the perspective to appreciate the reality of it, or perhaps they themselves were bullies and are in denial due to guilt. Either way, it doesn't matter. If dogs keep getting kicked they WILL continue to bite back! That's reality. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Molly Posted March 25, 2009 Report Posted March 25, 2009 Why? For criminal acts that were dismissed as 'kid stuff'. If you were assaulted, harrassed, threatened-- even doused with lighter fluid-- by someone, then I'd guess you'd want them punished. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 Why? for being mean? Even if they acted like jerks that does not in any way, shape or form make them responsible for what this nutjob decided to do. That's on HIM. YES it does. Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 I disagree! If they bullied an immature mind to an excessive degree they would have been guilty of creating a monster. You seem to be constantly dodging this point. I would think that the responsibity for creating the problem is as obvious as training a dog to be excessively vicious.Frankly, if you cannot accept this point I have to wonder if perhaps you don't want to, for some reason as yet undisclosed. I completely agree with you here. Quote
noahbody Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 I'm talking about holding bullies responsible for the consequences of THEIR actions! We don't hold youth murderers responsible for the consequences of their actions and you want to get tough on bullies? Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 Once again you've totally missed my point! Funny how you keep doing that. In no way have I suggested that there is no personal responsibility. A murderer has to pay the price, period. It might surprise you that I have always supported the death penalty. Maybe it wasn't his fault he was made crazy. It doesn't matter. He's broken and will always be a threat to others.I'm talking about holding bullies responsible for the consequences of THEIR actions! As for 'weak minded' I guarantee that when you were 8 or 9 years old a sufficiently ambitious bully would have had no problem screwing up you or anyone else! Severe bullying is quite common in some circles today. Unless you happen to be some kind of superman I can't imagine you being immune. Besides, lots of kids are born less strong minded than others. Do they deserve to be driven what by definition is insane by such bullying? By avoiding any talk of responsibility on the part of the bullies you seem to be suggesting that they are either engaged in harmless childhood fun or that their victims were somehow too weak to handle it so therefore deserved it. I can only see two possibilities as to how someone could hold such a view. Either they were lucky enough to never have experienced severe bullying as a child, thus lacking the perspective to appreciate the reality of it, or perhaps they themselves were bullies and are in denial due to guilt. Either way, it doesn't matter. If dogs keep getting kicked they WILL continue to bite back! That's reality. Completely and totally agree. (I have never agreed more with someone in my whole life lol.) And just to add some personal experience: Todd is still damaged he has an obsession with violence in movies, songs, and video games. He is also still bullied profusely by the staff and other residents. If he is hit or bullied he doesn't fight back he takes his anger out by punching objects. Also he thinks he was meant to die the day that he killed the kid. I still think he should be let out, but thass juss cuz i aint scared of that typa person. If anything the average person should want think the government to find a way that he be monitored so he can't get a weapon which is pretty much impossible. I think it is wrong to keep a person locked up forever and i think it is wrong to kill as a punishment for killin as i have said before. It makes no sense point blank period. I don't feel that you can put somone to death for biting back. Just because he bit back with 20 times more than he was bit by each individual does not make a difference. Also i think that if you support the death penalty for killers you support killing as punishment. This relates to the situation because todd was killing as punishment not in the same context i know but... think about it. Im sure the bullies killed a part of him. Im not saying i dont support the death penalty because i do just not for murder charges. I think the crimes that should be punishable by death are: Rape, molesting, or disgusting torture situations. There are probably a couple more but im drawing a blank so.... Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 We don't hold youth murderers responsible for the consequences of their actions and you want to get tough on bullies? I disagree. I think the amount of time youth from todd's day could do (10 years at sentencing without including dead time so for todd that turned out to be 12ish) was a rightful punishment for them to be rehabilitated. Damn right we should get tough on bullies if there wasnt the problem of bullies we wouldnt have some of the murderers we do (i.e. todd) to get tough on. Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 I'm sure he was angry and full of hate, but since he was no longer attending school he wasn't in a corner. With the killing occurring a week after Columbine, revenge was clearly the motivation. It wasn't done out of fear.But Todd did. He didn't know the people he shot. How would you feel if society treated me like crap, so out of anger I killed one of your family members who I didn't know to make a statement against society? Would you be on my side? If you're allowed to, you should volunteer your time to a charity. It would give you exposure to the good of society. Columbine just made toddy realize that he could actually do something about what those kids did to him and you're right Toddy didnt know them to talk to them but the one he killed had bullied him (not physically) at one point. I know this because he told me. No he wasnt going to school with them but he lived in a small town how would it feel to go out and see these people all the time pretty backed into a corner if you ask me. I would feel like SHIT and i would hate you and want to kill you. Does that make it right? Hell no. But would i want it and do it if i had the chance? YUPPP best believe i would. Quote
tango Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 He was convicted in November, 2000 sentenced to three years closed custody, (spent about 4.5) with an additional seven years of probation (starting in supervised halfway house) Not sure what else could have been done, though he should be wearing an electronic bracelet, perhaps. Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 We could all feel unjustly and cruely treated if we wanted to. The world can be a rough place. No matter how hard done by we feel, one can not go and kill the percieved abuser - If we had one day a year where vengence for every injustice was permitted - the streets would be littered with thousands of corpses. There is no reason to murder or kill unless it is a retaliation and a warding off of injury about to cause death..self defence> The best protection is to turn and walk away - and not let rage control you - anger clouds the mind...and a great injustice might occur - You might just off the wrong person - The state of Texas does it all the time. Hell yes we can go kill the perceived abuser its just that some of us have bot been pushed far enough to the point where we feel killing is needed. Example: if i raped and killed your daughter or mother or sister and made you watch and you seen a gun 10 feet away after i was done and leaving (notice i am not a threat to anyone anymore i have no weapon) would you not kill me? I would and so would most people!!! :angry: Not the same situation as Toddy but i bet you he felt that his character was raped and killed. Think about it. Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 These guys are not the norm, and the price we pay for living in a civilized society. Once we bring the death penalty back for this handful of animals, we open the door. I want it to stay closed. They can't be rehabilitated and have to remian behind bars. Countries with a death penalty do not experience less brutality.It also makes it harder for juries who now need 'rock solid' proof to convict if the death penalty is at play. I would just like to add to the death penalty wanters (lol nice word i know) I am in highschool and for grade 11 english we had to do a unit on crime and punishment and stuff like that. It is a proven fact that those that approve of the death penalty are already predisposed to think the defendant of a murder charge is guilty and give a verdict of guilty (if on the jury). Also those that dissaprove of the death penalty won't want to give a guilty verdict (if on the jury) because of the guilt they would feel if he was innocent and the guilt they would feel regardless just for taking a life. Also obviously not having the death penalty is working in some way because our whole country probably has close to as many murders maybe a little bit more than that of one U.S. state that has the death penalty. Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 He was convicted in November, 2000sentenced to three years closed custody, (spent about 4.5) with an additional seven years of probation (starting in supervised halfway house) Not sure what else could have been done, though he should be wearing an electronic bracelet, perhaps. He actually spent closer to six years in secure custody. Plus he went back for i think 2 months after he escaped from the halfway house. LMAO "escaped" more like left the doors are always open... Quote
tango Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 That's the point of halfway houses. There should be a better system for young offenders with serious problems like this kid who are still a danger to others. Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
Argus Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) Why? For criminal acts that were dismissed as 'kid stuff'. So let me get this straight. You think we should go find the bullies who doused him with lighter fluid many years earlier, when they were probably nine or ten, and then put them in prison? If you were assaulted, harrassed, threatened-- even doused with lighter fluid-- by someone, then I'd guess you'd want them punished. I was certainly assaulted, harrassed and threatened as a kid. But I can't imagine why you think a reasonably healthy mind would consider going to school and spraying bullets around to be a proper response. Edited March 26, 2009 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 Columbine just made toddy realize that he could actually do something about what those kids did to him and you're right Toddy didnt know them to talk to them but the one he killed had bullied him (not physically) at one point. So he murdered a guy because at one point, the guy had, what, teased him? That is what you mean, right? And he shot other kids for no particular reason by they were there. And you're trying to make this seem like it was someone else's fault. No doubt it was someone else's fault you commited armed robbery too. Does that make it right? Hell no. But would i want it and do it if i had the chance? YUPPP best believe i would. Again, this is that sense of selfishness and entitlement which thinks you deserve a perfect life with no obstacles, and everyone has to cooperate and be nice to you. Life doesn't work that way. And if you believe you have the right to execute people because they're being a pain in the ass then it's only a matter of time before you're back in prison for good. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) del Edited March 26, 2009 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wild Bill Posted March 26, 2009 Report Posted March 26, 2009 We don't hold youth murderers responsible for the consequences of their actions and you want to get tough on bullies? Well, I WOULD hold youth murderers responsible! so I'm not being inconsistent. That being said, I would agree that youth should be a consideration. A 4 year old likely would be incapable of understanding consequences. A 12 year old? Probably. 8 or 10? Maybe. That could be up to the judge. The blanket pass given to virtually ALL juvenile offenders today? No. Yes, I know there are provisions in the Act to allow juvenile murderers to be tried as adults. So what? How often are they actually used? If someone torments a pit bull to make it murderously vicious they can be charged. How is this different from severe bullying of a child? Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
cavemon44 Posted March 27, 2009 Report Posted March 27, 2009 So he murdered a guy because at one point, the guy had, what, teased him? That is what you mean, right? And he shot other kids for no particular reason by they were there. And you're trying to make this seem like it was someone else's fault.No doubt it was someone else's fault you commited armed robbery too. Again, this is that sense of selfishness and entitlement which thinks you deserve a perfect life with no obstacles, and everyone has to cooperate and be nice to you. Life doesn't work that way. And if you believe you have the right to execute people because they're being a pain in the ass then it's only a matter of time before you're back in prison for good. The point is that todd was over the edge at this point he didnt distinguish the difference between someone that beat the crap outta him, someone who teased him, and/or someone who did absolutely nothing. It was partially someone else's fault. If you think this was a clear and conscious decision made by todd your an idiot. Hell no it wasnt someone elses fault that i did armed robberies i wanted money and most of society was to pussy to stop me from gettin it the easy way. There is no selfish sense of entitlement its just selfish we want... we take who is to stop us? Noone said that we think we deserve a perfect life if we thought we deserved a perfect life then we wouldnt do stuff like that because clearly it didnt make our lives perfect and we knew it wouldnt. Your an idiot especially because in todd's case he didnt think he was entitled to even life nevermind a perfect one... he wanted to die. Damn right life doesnt work that way or we wouldnt have killed or robbed. I dont believe i have the right to kill someone for being a pain in the ass i believe i have the right to kill someone for being an exsessive pain in the ass (e.x. stealing something "big" from me). If someone robbed me for something i cherished or was worth a lot of money i believe i have the right to kill them. or killing or raping someone i loved. DEAD. Quote
guyser Posted March 27, 2009 Report Posted March 27, 2009 If someone robbed me for something i cherished or was worth a lot of money i believe i have the right to kill them. or killing or raping someone i loved. DEAD. Believe what you want, but you are dead wrong to think you have any right to kill someone over a theft. Quote
noahbody Posted March 27, 2009 Report Posted March 27, 2009 Hell no it wasnt someone elses fault that i did armed robberies . If someone robbed me for something i cherished or was worth a lot of money i believe i have the right to kill them. Little bit of irony there. Quote
cavemon44 Posted March 27, 2009 Report Posted March 27, 2009 Little bit of irony there. lol i know thass why i put it there they had the right to do the same with my logic. im not disputing that fact. Quote
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