Feds Never Helped Alberta?

[THELIBERAL]

http://www.aims.ca/inthemedia.asp?typeID=4&id=290&fd=0&p=11

Early in this century, the Government in Ottawa transferred to Alberta and the other prairie provinces ownership of the natural resources within those provinces.

HELLO!!!! And NOW? Alberta wants to run the WHOLE country or else it's separation!

WOW!

[crazymf]

Early in this century, the Government at Ottawa transferred to Alberta and the other prairie provinces ownership of the natural resources within those provinces. However, in the 1970’s the Government at Ottawa headed by Mr. Trudeau and represented by then Energy Minister Jean Chretien opposed any suggestion that offshore resources of oil and gas should be owned by the provinces off whose shores the resources lay (i.e. Newfoundland and Nova Scotia) and won before the Supreme Court of Canada. It was the P.C. Government led by Prime Minister Mulroney that entered into accords in the 1980’s with Newfoundland and Nova Scotia providing for the joint administration and ownership of the offshore resources which gave those provinces the right to collect revenue by way of taxes and royalties from the offshore oil and gas resources.

And then the feds decided to own the oil offshore so Albertas equalization payments to the Maritimes could continue. To me they're wishing they hadn't transferred ownership to us earlier. At least the PC's did something right in the 80's although it does say 'joint' ownership of the resources.

Seems to me kind of unfair to pay world price for natural gas when it leaks out of my waterwell all by itself. I bet in Ontario they don't pay much for grapes when they're in season. How about paying the same price as us to help cover the trucking to get them here?

Simplistic yes, but no simple answer to your thread.

[kimmy]

http://www.aims.ca/inthemedia.asp?typeID=4&id=290&fd=0&p=11

Early in this century, the Government in Ottawa transferred to Alberta and the other prairie provinces ownership of the natural resources within those provinces.

HELLO!!!! And NOW? Alberta wants to run the WHOLE country or else it's separation!

WOW!

Early in this century, the Government in Ottawa transferred to Alberta and the other prairie provinces ownership of the natural resources within those provinces.

Yes. The prairie provinces received those rights in 1930. The other provinces had those rights from the moment they were created. Alberta and Saskatchewan had to wait 25 years for something the other provinces were given right from day 1.

You didn't know that, did you.

But yes, the federal government helped Alberta in the 20th century. Alberta received equalization from 1957 to 1964. Alberta received grants before 1930 in lieu of resource revenue. And the federal government even provided investment and loan guarantees to encourage industry in this province. I don't think anybody is saying that the federal government never did anything for Alberta. However, some people would argue that Alberta has more than repaid their generousity, and continues to do so at a high cost every year.

HELLO!!!! And NOW? Alberta wants to run the WHOLE country or else it's separation!

What in the blue hell are you talking about? Who on earth has said Alberta should run the whole country? Have you been eating magic mushrooms? Have you suffered a head injury recently? Have you been hearing strange voices or noticed magic leprechauns dancing on top of your monitor?

WOW!

My thoughts exactly

-k

[Guest eureka]

But Kimmy, the federal government did not have to transfer ownership to Alberta or the other new provinces. Prior to transfer, resources in the territories were owned by all Canadians to be used for the benefit of all Canadians. Alberta's wealth now is a gift from most Canadians to the few in Alberta.

And Albertans do not want to share their good fortune. Change that to many Albertans since, judging from some posts here, there are many Albertans who do know they have been lucky.

What will you think when the oil runs out and Alberta is subsisting on equalization payments funded by the diamond mines in the North? Should the territories become provinces and be given ownership of resources or should their wealth be shared?

[kimmy]

But Kimmy, the federal government did not have to transfer ownership to Alberta or the other new provinces. Prior to transfer, resources in the territories were owned by all Canadians to be used for the benefit of all Canadians. Alberta's wealth now is a gift from most Canadians to the few in Alberta.

In 1930, Alberta's resource revenues didn't amount to a hill of beans. The feds probably thought they were saving a few bucks by swapping the grants for the resource rights.

I have a hard time seeing it as some heroic act of noblesse, extending the new provinces privileges that the older provinces gave themselves right from day one.

And Albertans do not want to share their good fortune. Change that to many Albertans since, judging from some posts here, there are many Albertans who do know they have been lucky.

What will you think when the oil runs out and Alberta is subsisting on equalization payments funded by the diamond mines in the North? Should the territories become provinces and be given ownership of resources or should their wealth be shared?

We already share the wealth, eureka, as you know. Remember, it's not Alberta that's gone to war with Ottawa over equalization, it's Dalton McGuinty.

-k

[THELIBERAL]

RE::But yes, the federal government helped Alberta in the 20th century. Alberta received equalization from 1957 to 1964. Alberta received grants before 1930 in lieu of resource revenue. And the federal government even provided investment and loan guarantees to encourage industry in this province. I don't think anybody is saying that the federal government never did anything for Alberta. However, some people would argue that Alberta has more than repaid their generousity, and continues to do so at a high cost every year.

But tell us will you where this Alberta rant comes from that says the feds did nothing for Alberta from day one?

Does oil cloud one's thinking?

[kimmy]

But tell us will you where this Alberta rant comes from that says the feds did nothing for Alberta from day one?

Does oil cloud one's thinking?

Who claims that the feds did nothing for Alberta from day one? I honestly have not heard anyone say that. Can you provide an example of where someone says that?

-k

[takeanumber]

What is the root of Alberta seperatism?

Greed and the desire for a Christian Theocracy.

Simple as that.

If those Albertans can't get their theocracy in Canada, they'll seek to seperate. Their attempt to take over the country by taking over the Conservative Party has failed. What other choice do they have?

[kimmy]

What is the root of Alberta seperatism?

Greed and the desire for a Christian Theocracy.

Simple as that.

If those Albertans can't get their theocracy in Canada, they'll seek to seperate.  Their attempt to take over the country by taking over the Conservative Party has failed.  What other choice do they have?

If you think dissatisfaction with Canadian federalism is limited to rural bible-kooks, you're quite mistaken. You live in Calgary; I'm sure you'll find plenty of frustration and disgust with federalism right there amongst all the secular urbanites. I'm a 3rd-generation atheist and my family has plenty of grudging, reluctant Canadians who might tell you they would consider separation if you asked them on a bad day.

There are bible-kooks among Conservatives, but don't assume Conservatives are all bible-kooks. There are bible-kooks among the western separatists, but don't assume western separatists are all bible-kooks.

-k

[Riverwind]

I'm a 3rd-generation atheist and my family has plenty of grudging, reluctant Canadians who might tell you they would consider separation if you asked them on a bad day.

Complaining about Ottawa is a Canadian bloodsport that goes on in every part of the country. It probably ranks with the weather in terms of regularilty it shows up in conversations. It is unfortunate that most Albertans do not realize that they have had an incredible influence of national policies even though their party of choice never seems to be in power. Manning was probably among the most effective opposition leaders that this country has every had if you measure by the number of his policies that were eventually adopted by the government (I never thought I would be nostalgic for the days of Manning/Reform...)

[kimmy]

I'm a 3rd-generation atheist and my family has plenty of grudging, reluctant Canadians who might tell you they would consider separation if you asked them on a bad day.

Complaining about Ottawa is a Canadian bloodsport that goes on in every part of the country. It probably ranks with the weather in terms of regularilty it shows up in conversations. It is unfortunate that most Albertans do not realize that they have had an incredible influence of national policies even though their party of choice never seems to be in power. Manning was probably among the most effective opposition leaders that this country has every had if you measure by the number of his policies that were eventually adopted by the government (I never thought I would be nostalgic for the days of Manning/Reform...)

Complaining about the government is one thing, but the loss of faith in the country's institutions is something else. I simply don't know any adults who have anything except complete cynicism towards anything associated with the federal government. Not only do people dislike this government, they feel that the next election, and the one after, and every election afterward, won't deliver anything better. The angry rhetoric, the various separatist groups popping up, the mocking tone of any discussion of federal politics, it's all symptoms. The disease is not different philosophies greed or anything like that; the problem is that people have just tuned out and lost faith that the process even matters. Perhaps that fundamental dissatisfaction is not unique to Alberta, but if that's the case, shouldn't that be a cause for concern?

Albertans send a full slate of Conservatives to Ottawa because they're just tired of it. Ultimately, it wouldn't matter if we sent a full slate of Liberals, separatists, or a full slate of Marijuana Partiers (?!) ...the impact to federal government in this country would be miniscule. Nothing would change. So why not do it?

-k

[Riverwind]

I simply don't know any adults who have anything except complete cynicism towards anything associated with the federal government. Not only do people dislike this government, they feel that the next election, and the one after, and every election afterward, won't deliver anything better.

This is a symptom of a malaise in our media saturated culture that is not specific to Canada or the Canadian federation. You see the same thing in the US, Europe, Japan, etc. What makes Canada different is we have these semi-autonomous provinces which are geographically larger than most countries which makes some people jump to the illogical conclusion that things would be better if _insert your province here_ was an independent country. The reality is that people would be just as cynical about the Alberta government if the Alberta government no longer had Ottawa to kick around.

Perhaps that fundamental dissatisfaction is not unique to Alberta, but if that's the case, shouldn't that be a cause for concern?

It is a concern but what can be done about it?

Albertans send a full slate of Conservatives to Ottawa because they're just tired of it.  Ultimately, it wouldn't matter if we sent a full slate of Liberals,  separatists, or a full slate of Marijuana Partiers (?!) ...the impact to federal government in this country would be miniscule.  Nothing would change. So why not do it?

Politics in Ottawa has changed, in a large part due to the influence of the Reform party. And politics in Ottawa will continue to change as long as Alberta keeps speaking with such a strong voice. It is unfortunate that more Albertas do not realize this.

[kimmy]

This is a symptom of a malaise in our media saturated culture that is not specific to Canada or the Canadian federation. You see the same thing in the US, Europe, Japan, etc. What makes Canada different is we have these semi-autonomous provinces which are geographically larger than most countries which makes some people jump to the illogical conclusion that things would be better if _insert your province here_ was an independent country. The reality is that people would be just as cynical about the Alberta government if the Alberta government no longer had Ottawa to kick around.

Well, Albertans are pissed enough at their own government, they can change it. In Canada, if Albertans are pissed enough at the federal government, it completely does not matter.

Perhaps that fundamental dissatisfaction is not unique to Alberta, but if that's the case, shouldn't that be a cause for concern?

It is a concern but what can be done about it?

Well if I knew the answer to that I'd be Belinda Stronach, wouldn't I.

I do know, however, a few things that aren't going to work:

-slapping the "Canada" logo on hockey rinks and golf tournaments and dog shows and so on. That just fuels the cynicism.

-a year long pan-Canadian travelling panel to interview Canadians and study the problem. That would also just fuel the cynicism. I think we just had one of those a few years ago, and nothing ever came of it.

-campaigning about "addressing the democratic deficit", then doing nothing that remotely resembles "addressing the democratic deficit" only fuels the cynicism. Coming back at me with something "AAAHHH well there were 11% more free votes under Martin than under Chretien!" or "AAAAHH well what about Irwin Cotler's supreme court appointment dog-and-pony show??" is not going to cut it, btw.

Politics in Ottawa has changed, in a large part due to the influence of the Reform party. And politics in Ottawa will continue to change as long as Alberta keeps speaking with such a strong voice. It is unfortunate that more Albertas do not realize this.

so... people in the regions should make their presence felt by shifting their support to non-traditional parties, in anticipation that those policies will be adopted by the Liberals before the new party has a chance to catch on in Ontario? I can see where you'd feel it had worked for Preston Manning, but I'm not sure that's the basis for a system of government.

-k

[Hawk]

This is a symptom of a malaise in our media saturated culture that is not specific to Canada or the Canadian federation. You see the same thing in the US, Europe, Japan, etc. What makes Canada different is we have these semi-autonomous provinces which are geographically larger than most countries which makes some people jump to the illogical conclusion that things would be better if _insert your province here_ was an independent country. The reality is that people would be just as cynical about the Alberta government if the Alberta government no longer had Ottawa to kick around.

Not necessarily, since without Ontario dominating the political spectrum the average Albertan would get a voice. Taxation without representation is the most common complaint I am hearing these days.

It is a concern but what can be done about it?

Seperation.

Politics in Ottawa has changed, in a large part due to the influence of the Reform party. And politics in Ottawa will continue to change as long as Alberta keeps speaking with such a strong voice. It is unfortunate that more Albertas do not realize this.

LOL nothing has changed in Ottawa other than we now have minority governments pushing through insanely controversial legislation without even breaking a sweat. That to me is disgusting and vile, not democratic at all.

[Riverwind]

Well, Albertans are pissed enough at their own government, they can change it.  In Canada, if Albertans are pissed enough at the federal government, it completely does not matter.

Large segments of Alberta society would still be as dissatisfied and feel just as powerless because without Ottawa to kick around the polictical divisions within Alberta society would become starkly evident. That is the nature of democratic society. In short: 'plus ca change plus le meme chose'.

so... people in the regions should make their presence felt by shifting their support to non-traditional parties, in anticipation that those policies will be adopted by the Liberals before the new party has a chance to catch on in Ontario?  I can see where you'd feel it had worked for Preston Manning, but I'm not sure that's the basis for a system of government.

The idea that Alberta has no voice in national affairs is a myth created by people who have a vested interest in propagating that myth. You acknowledged that I had a point when it came to Manning. Harper had the opportunity to do a lot more than Manning because of the minority government. However, he pissed the opportunity in a mad grab for power. A better leader than Harper would have taken full advantage of the Liberal's weakness and pushed for real policy changes instead of grandstanding.

People in Alberta want to be heard on the national stage they need to be constructive. I did not agree with many of Mannings ideas but at least he had ideas and concrete proposals for change. He did not expend all if his political capital directing insults at the people he needed to influence.

[Hawk]

Large segments of Alberta society would still be as dissatisfied and feel just as powerless because without Ottawa to kick around the polictical divisions within Alberta society would become starkly evident. That is the nature of democratic society. In short: 'plus ca change plus le meme chose'.

Not true, Alberta may have some dissatisfaction but it would be in no way nearly so drastic as the current dissatisfaction. Also the geographical divide would be far less extreme and I would hope with seperation we ditched the worthless parliamentary system =p

so... people in the regions should make their presence felt by shifting their support to non-traditional parties, in anticipation that those policies will be adopted by the Liberals before the new party has a chance to catch on in Ontario?  I can see where you'd feel it had worked for Preston Manning, but I'm not sure that's the basis for a system of government.

The idea that Alberta has no voice in national affairs is a myth created by people who have a vested interest in propagating that myth. You acknowledged that I had a point when it came to Manning. Harper had the opportunity to do a lot more than Manning because of the minority government. However, he pissed the opportunity in a mad grab for power. A better leader than Harper would have taken full advantage of the Liberal's weakness and pushed for real policy changes instead of grandstanding.

People in Alberta want to be heard on the national stage they need to be constructive. I did not agree with many of Mannings ideas but at least he had ideas and concrete proposals for change. He did not expend all if his political capital directing insults at the people he needed to influence.

LoL did you just quote yourself or was that a typo?