Toyota creates more problems for Conservatives

[Renegade]

Let's use our government tax dollars in more productive ways ...

This is all very nice, buying everyone an all-you-can-eat buffet of housing, clothing, food, healthcare, dentalcare, childcare, education, etc, except that it isn't the govenrment's tax dollars, it's MINE and every taxpayer who contributes. So, why shouldn't I be the one to decide how to spend it, afterall I earned it.

Besides that, this utopia you paint has been tried in a couple of communist countries with disasterous consequences. Whether wealthy or not, I can't see how any of us want to travel down that path.

Our tax system could use a major overhaul..

I have to agree with you there, but if I was the one overhauling it I doubt you would like the end result.

[mirror]

Do you have any idea how much it costs for our social services (welfare) departments and our employment insurance departments annually to operate trying to police its clients?

[Renegade]

No, I acutally don't and I would love to hear figures. But I will say this, if we paid nothing in welfare and EI we would have no policing cost either.

[Argus]

RE::How does this at all hurt the Conservatives, who have never once supported an "American" health care system?

No they just support the American system as a 2nd tier to our system!!!!

Insurance driven healthcare?????? Ever had any dealings with insurance companies?

Yes. And it was a lot more pleasant than waiting ten hours in a public hospital before finally getting a doctor to see my mother's broken arm.

[Argus]

No they just support the American system as a 2nd tier to our system!!!!

I see exactly what you're saying. PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO MAKE CHOICES! You're absolutely right....... or perhaps a little too far left of it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You want choices for the rich not the middle class and the poor.

Are you really dumb enough to believe the rich don't already have all the choices they want or need when it comes to health care? Is anyone that dumb?

No matter how much you want 2 tier health care in Canada, I don't see it happening as the vast, vast majority of Canadians want a single tier publically funded health care system.

Most Canadians support private health care

Majority want right to pay for private health care

[Canuck E Stan]

Hey Mr. Vast Vast,this NATIONAL poll, I repeat NATIONAL poll (and you seem to like polls)says 63% want a choice in health care. So even though you don't like it, accept the message that Canadians are telling you.

[mirror]

So what's the impact on taxpayers? In Canada, there's no impact at all: since all Canadians get government-provided health insurance in any case, the additional auto jobs won't increase government spending.

But U.S. taxpayers will suffer, because the general public ends up picking up much of the cost of health care for workers who don't get insurance through their jobs. Some uninsured workers and their families end up on Medicaid. Others end up depending on emergency rooms, which are heavily subsidized by taxpayers.

Funny, isn't it? Pundits tell us that the welfare state is doomed by globalization, that programs like national health insurance have become unsustainable. But Canada's universal health insurance system is handling international competition just fine. It's our own system, which penalizes companies that treat their workers well, that's in trouble

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Did you even read the article? The reality is most Americans would give their right`arm to have a health care system like ours. And the proof is in the pudding by Toyota's move to Canada over the financial inducements from the US.

[Renegade]

From this article: Toyota to build another car factory in Canada

Toyota plants are sprouting up around the world, including a new factory that opened in the Czech Republic recently. Plants in Texas and China are set to start production next year, and in 2007, new factories in Thailand and Russia are scheduled to open.

mirror, since you seem to attribute the choice of Canada by Toyota to healthcare, how do you explain that Toyota factories are sprouting many other places as well.

Could it be that Toyota is coming to canada because of this: Federal Corporate Tax Rate Reductions

[Canuck E Stan]

Or maybe because:

Ontario won out after intense lobbying by Premier Dalton McGuinty and Economic Development Minister Joe Cordiano -- who made two trips to Japan to pitch the province's case -- and a promise of $125-million in financial help from the Ontario and federal governments.

[mirror]

For now, let me just point out that treating people decently is sometimes a competitive advantage. In America, basic health insurance is a privilege; in Canada, it's a right. And in the auto industry, at least, the good jobs are heading north.  

Everyone offered money, the difference was Canada's social services. Why do you have difficulty realizing that there are tremendous advantages to locating in Canada

Of course you know better than Krugman. After all he is only a world renowned economist, the 1991 winner of the very prestigious John Bates Clark Medal from the American Economic Association.

[Renegade]

Of course you know better than Krugman. After all he is only a world renowned economist, the 1991 winner of the very prestigious John Bates Clark Medal from the American Economic Association.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And guess where the world renowned economist who thinks so much of the Canadian health system chose to live ---> USA

[mirror]

I think most people who are born in the USA reside in the USA, just like most people born in Canada reside in Canada. Too bad you seem to be so down on this wonderful country called Canada. Maybe you need a vacation to relax and enjoy this superb land.

[Renegade]

I'm not down on it. It has potential to be great. I'm trying to save it from the leftist and communists.

[RB]

Most of their workers are hired and work this way.  How do I know? I have a brother-in-law who has been on contract with them for three years trying to get hired on full time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thre is a case ceccol v. ontario gymnastic federation (2201), 55

\\

Ceccol worked for a period under a series of 1 year contract

The court looked at the case as to whether the employment relationship is characterized as one lasting for indefinite term of a series of 1-year fixed terms.

OK what I mean is "fixed-term contract" under the employment standards act and the common law has traditional protections and where the employment is continuous service by the employee for many years and called contract reads like evasion.

So my point to the senario presented whether there are representations to indicate an indefinite-term relationship.

For example:

The administrative challenge to get contracts renewed on time. I would say if a date is missed, a fixed-term contact becomes a contract for an indefinite term well unless there is automatic renewal of contracts

[cybercoma]

If people want to travel to the USA to pay for some medical procedure that's up to them, just don't ask canadian taxpayers to help foot the bill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that so?

My exgf's father had a heart attack, while in the emergency room he had a turn for the worse and they needed specialist care immediatly. Know where they sent him? Macomb. That's in Michigan. Before the family could even ask what was going on they already had his operation done and over with and guess who paid the bill....

OHIP.

[mirror]

Well, I am glad that he survived, which is the main thing. I'm not sure what your point is though.

[cybercoma]

Well, I am glad that he survived, which is the main thing. I'm not sure what your point is though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point is, Canadians are going to PRIVATE facilities in Detroit, Michigan, USA for procedures because they CANNOT get care here in Canada when an emergency arises. And the taxpayers are the ones footing the bill for this.

Our healthcare system is in such a shambles that people are routinely being sent to the United States for care and our government is handing over Canadian tax dollars to private american hospitals.

Just thought I'd let you know.

[Canuck E Stan]

Good point Cybercoma, I also had my mother with Colin Cancer have an operation in Michigan, 6 days after her diagnosis for Cancer by Michigan doctors. In Ontario she was required to wait for a specialist to see her three months after her operation was already over, just for an evaluation.How can anyone support such a system of inadequacies. Unless it happens to you, or a loved one,you will never understand how crappy the system is.. With 63% of Canadians saying we should have a choice, all Canadians should face the fact that this present "Canadian" system sucks big time.Easy to say one tier is the way, but if your health is on the line your attitude changes quite drastically. Canada's health care system is for the healthy, not the sick.

[mirror]

For every horror story about Canada's medicare system there are a million good ones, so let's not overdo it. It is obvious there is an orchestrated campaign going on for private funded health care in Canada but Canadians are a bit smarter than that, and know all the terrible pitfalls that would encur. We are already having enough problems with contracting out which is leading to poor quality work and care for the patients.

[err]

For every horror story about Canada's medicare system there are a million good ones, so let's not overdo it. It is obvious there is an orchestrated  campaign going on for private funded health care in Canada but Canadians are a bit smarter than that, and know all the terrible pitfalls that would encur.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point Mirror. While we're comparing the two wonderful systems, why not talk about the 100,000 Americans who die preventable deaths each year because they can't afford the health care premiums. Why not talk about all of the bankrupcies in the states because of insufficient health care coverage. Why not talk about the 40 million Americans who make over $7.50 per hour, and so they aren't eligible for free minimalistic health care....

Canadian health care costs 40% less per capita than American health care. And all Canadians are covered.... and the USA, with the most expensive health care system in the world, is tied with only South Africa in the industrialized world in its failure to provide health care to all pregnant women and their children. In the modern world, only Portugal and Greece have worse infant mortality rates than the USA.

And why do we have a problem with insufficient capabilities as per the two stories, above... It's pretty simple. Tories with mean-spirited agendas like Brian Mulroney kept telling Canadians "We can't afford it"... And cut back financing for health care. They can't afford to run deficits, but they still give bigger and bigger tax breaks each and every year to corporate Canada... but less for our health care system. Our Conservative Liberal prime minister Martin cut corporate taxes back by $100 Billion dollars in the past few years... and cut health care transfer payments to help do it...

The public health-care system is less expensive than the private system of the USA. We CAN afford a fully funtional health care system. The problem is political, not fiscal.

[Renegade]

...and the USA, with the most expensive health care system in the world, is tied with only South Africa in the industrialized world in its failure to provide health care to all pregnant women and their children. In the modern world, only Portugal and Greece have worse infant mortality rates than the USA.

Tell me mirror and err, why do you think that it is the government's responsibility to provide free healthcare for its populace? Why is that not an individual's responsibility?

[Argus]

Well, I am glad that he survived, which is the main thing. I'm not sure what your point is though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about that you want to punish people for electing to go to the US by denying them any funds from government and yet the government itself is sending people to the US for treatment.

[cybercoma]

For every horror story about Canada's medicare system there are a million good ones, so let's not overdo it. It is obvious there is an orchestrated  campaign going on for private funded health care in Canada but Canadians are a bit smarter than that, and know all the terrible pitfalls that would encur. We are already having enough problems with contracting out which is leading to poor quality work and care for the patients.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You were just saying if people want to go to the US for care let them, but don't expect the taxpayers to foot the bill. The examples that have been given show you that people are being sent to the states for care and the taxpayers ARE footing the bill. We already have a two-tiered system, except our tax dollars are being sent to the United States. A two-tier system doesn't abolish public insurance or care.

[cybercoma]

For every horror story about Canada's medicare system there are a million good ones, so let's not overdo it. It is obvious there is an orchestrated  campaign going on for private funded health care in Canada but Canadians are a bit smarter than that, and know all the terrible pitfalls that would encur.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point Mirror. While we're comparing the two wonderful systems, why not talk about the 100,000 Americans who die preventable deaths each year because they can't afford the health care premiums. Why not talk about all of the bankrupcies in the states because of insufficient health care coverage. Why not talk about the 40 million Americans who make over $7.50 per hour, and so they aren't eligible for free minimalistic health care....

Canadian health care costs 40% less per capita than American health care. And all Canadians are covered.... and the USA, with the most expensive health care system in the world, is tied with only South Africa in the industrialized world in its failure to provide health care to all pregnant women and their children. In the modern world, only Portugal and Greece have worse infant mortality rates than the USA.

And why do we have a problem with insufficient capabilities as per the two stories, above... It's pretty simple. Tories with mean-spirited agendas like Brian Mulroney kept telling Canadians "We can't afford it"... And cut back financing for health care. They can't afford to run deficits, but they still give bigger and bigger tax breaks each and every year to corporate Canada... but less for our health care system. Our Conservative Liberal prime minister Martin cut corporate taxes back by $100 Billion dollars in the past few years... and cut health care transfer payments to help do it...

The public health-care system is less expensive than the private system of the USA. We CAN afford a fully funtional health care system. The problem is political, not fiscal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one is comparing systems. For the six billionth time, a two-tiered system doen't mean American style healthcare. The United States doesn't have a two-tier system.

[Renegade]

If people want to travel to the USA to pay for some medical procedure that's up to them, just don't ask canadian taxpayers to help foot the bill.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this straight mirror, you are willing to let people travel to the US for a medical procedure that they would pay for with their own funds, but you are against them doing so in a closer location in Canada?

It would seem that the only difference between what you would allow and what you wouldn't is the convienience of how far one would need to travel to obtain the private medical procedure. Doesn't that seem like a ludicrious distinction to make?