Sell the LCBO now.

[Big Blue Machine]

We should privitize the LCBO. It's better for the whole Ontario. The report that came out a few days ago agreed. We would generate even more money in revenue from privitization. The proof that selling the LCBO is better for us in Alberta.

[Shakeyhands]

How so? The way it is now, we the government get all the profits... Why open this up to the corporations? or am I missing something? How would this help?

[Big Blue Machine]

Just read the report.

[err]

We should privitize the LCBO. It's better for the whole Ontario. The report that came out a few days ago agreed. We would generate even more money in revenue from privitization. The proof that selling the LCBO is better for us in Alberta.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Big Blue... since you won't read "The Quick and the Dead", how about another political book that's probably more on your level. Read it a few times until you get the moral... It's called "The Goose that Laid the Golden Egg".

[Toro]

I used to sell beer to the LCBO. We imported Lone Star from the States. We purchased a flat of 24 cans from the brewery for $3.80, tacked on a quarter for ourselves and sold it to the LCBO for $4.05. The LCBO retailed it for $28.

I don't know what the figure is today but a decade ago, the LCBO brought in $800 million to the Ontario government. At the time, I don't think LCBO employees were allowed to strike because they were essential service, though I may be wrong on that.

Its so bizarre that you cannot buy alcohol in the grocery stores in Canada.

[Big Blue Machine]

Look at Alberta and the success that came with privitizing the ALCB. There are more stores available to the public, they are open longer hours, and there are selection of wine and spirits available to the public than when the ALCB was ever public.

[Renegade]

How so? The way it is now, we the government get all the profits... Why open this up to the corporations? or am I missing something?

If the government owning the LCBO is such a good idea, why not extend it to automobile dealerships, food stores, hell why not the entire retail industry?

That way the government could have a monopoly, charge you whatever price they wanted and provide you with whatever service they chose. If you as a consumer didn't like it, well tough luck. You couldn't even go outside the province to purchase your goods because they have armed guards only allowing you to bring in a minimal amount in order to protect the monopoly.

Remind me again, how is this fair for the consumer?

[err]

How so?  The way it is now, we the government get all the profits... Why open this up to the corporations? or am I missing something? How would this help?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, the people of Ontario get all the profits. Every dollar collected at the LCBO is one dollar less that the government has to collect off your paycheque.

So unless you own one of the companies that would obtain a portion of the LCBO that would be sold off.... you lose from the sale of the LCBO...

[Shakeyhands]

as I said, we the government. But thanks for clarifyuing that I am correct. I think the choice at the LCBO is fantastic, there is very little that I cannot get, including Scotch that isn't normally carried (Big Single Malt Fan!) The way I see it, it would be harder for me to get some of the things that I like to from a corner store? I really don't see the advantage but again I could be wrong.

BBM, Could you post a link to the report? I'll take a look, as I said before, perhaps I am missing something.

[Renegade]

Actually, the people of Ontario get all the profits. Every dollar collected at the LCBO is one dollar less that the government has to collect off your paycheque.

Not really, since every every dollar they make cost me many more dollars in inflated prices every time I shop at the LCBO.

I guess by logical extension of your argument, you would support the government having a monopoly in tabacco retailing and selling that at inflated prices as well.

BTW, the government gets a nice cut of the action in the tabacco industry even though the retailing is private not public

[Big Blue Machine]

Plus, if we privitize the LCBO, we will be kicking people off inflated salaries. Captialism will work in this case, if the LCBO goes private.

[err]

Plus, if we privitize the LCBO, we will be kicking people off inflated salaries. Captialism will work in this case, if the LCBO goes private.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya... get rid of the good jobs... Why should other people have good jobs that pay enough to make a decent living on....

[cybercoma]

Plus, if we privitize the LCBO, we will be kicking people off inflated salaries. Captialism will work in this case, if the LCBO goes private.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya... get rid of the good jobs... Why should other people have good jobs that pay enough to make a decent living on....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should they be making wages that aren't at all what the market value for their job is and be paid out of your pocket?

Oh that's right, so we can pay $36 for a case of beer when I can drive over the border and buy a case of Molson Canadian for $12 us. Factor in tolls and exchange it's actually worth it.

[Big Blue Machine]

The LCBO is wine and spirits. You can buy beer at the beer store.

[Renegade]

Have a read on this: PRIVATIZATION: EXPERIENCE AND PROSPECTS

Some excerpts:

This has led many to argue that privatizing the LCBO would cost the province substantial revenue, although the Alberta experience has shown that this need not be the case

Additionally, the LCBO’s staff is unionized by the Ontario Liquor Boards Employees’ Union (OLBEU) that represents approximately 5,500 workers. In 2002, the LCBO gave its employees an 11 percent raise over three years.184 In 2002, the starting wage for an LCBO clerk was $17.39 an hour, rising to $20.35 after five years of employment.185 Full-time LCBO employees receive a public sector pension plan and full benefits. Privatization likely would lead to the deunionization of the industry, resulting in lower wages and higher employment as experienced in Alberta following privatization

It is clear to me that LCBO employee's chief objection to privatization is to protect overpaid jobs, which if they were paid market rates they would earn substantially less. This matters to me because as a consumer I am being charged higher prices to cover these artificially inflated labour costs.

[err]

Why should they be making wages that aren't at all what the market value for their job is and be paid out of your pocket?

Oh that's right, so we can pay $36 for a case of beer when I can drive over the border and buy a case of Molson Canadian for $12 us.  Factor in tolls and exchange it's actually worth it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Watered down Molson Canadian.... Haven't you noticed that the "Canadian" beer that you buy in the USA is watered down... but aside from the fact that you can't tell the difference, why do seem to have a problem with anybody being well paid. I've seen you post several times "Why do you hate corporations"... I have to ask you why you hate that some people have decent paying jobs.... Wouldn't you like to have a decent paying job ?? You seem to have this view that only corporate business owners (and shareholders) should be well paid, and everybody else making minimum wage....

[cybercoma]

Watered down Molson Canadian.... Haven't you noticed that the "Canadian" beer that you buy in the USA is watered down... but aside from the fact that you can't tell the difference, why do seem to have a problem with anybody being well paid.  I've seen you post several times "Why do you hate corporations"... I have to ask you why you hate that some people have decent paying jobs.... Wouldn't you like to have a decent paying job ?? You seem to have this view that only corporate business owners (and shareholders) should be well paid, and everybody else making minimum wage....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The beer is the same alcohol by volume, unless you have some evidence as to how they water down Molson Canadian over there, you're simply wrong.

I think business owners and shareholders should be well paid and everyone else making minimum wage? That's a bit of a stretch.

Of course business owners and shareholders should be well payed, they took the chance of investing and putting their own wealth at risk to create and maintain their companies. They should be rewarded for their risk and motivation.

I don't believe everyone else should make minimum wage, but I do believe that people should be paid fair market value for their skills. If minimum wage is not a fair price for the job they're doing then they won't be able to retain a proper workforce. Supply and demand still applies to people as a resource. When the market is entirely controlled by the government, these people make inflated wages well beyond what their skills are worth.

People should be paid what their worth. The more specific a skill you have and the less people there are that can do that job, the better paid you will be. Let me ask you this, why doesn't the government just make minimum wage $60,000/year? Everyone would be able to live comfortably if that were the case.

[err]

People should be paid what their worth.  The more specific a skill you have and the less people there are that can do that job, the better paid you will be.  Let me ask you this, why doesn't the government just  make minimum wage $60,000/year?  Everyone would be able to live comfortably if that were the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From the numbers that Renegade quoted on the previous page, an LCBO employee is paid $34.5K/yr, going up to $40K/yr after 5 years of service. I don't know about you, but I don't consider these wages to be excessive.

In fact, with $34K/year, your take-home pay would be in the range of $25.5K/year, or about $2000 per month. I don't know how much money you live on, but I don't think this is excessive. If this person is from a single income household, and owns a vehicle, they are probably not doing very well... and you begrudge this level of wage... I don't understand...

The LCBO is an incredibly well run store. They are always impeccably clean, well stocked, and should you need assistance, they are always professional and courteous. I think they are doing a great job, and I don't begrudge them making enough money to pay their rent...

(notice, I said rent, because on that wage, you'd be hard pressed to purchase a house without a significant other)

[cybercoma]

People should be paid what their worth.  The more specific a skill you have and the less people there are that can do that job, the better paid you will be.  Let me ask you this, why doesn't the government just  make minimum wage $60,000/year?  Everyone would be able to live comfortably if that were the case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From the numbers that Renegade quoted on the previous page, an LCBO employee is paid $34.5K/yr, going up to $40K/yr after 5 years of service. I don't know about you, but I don't consider these wages to be excessive.

In fact, with $34K/year, your take-home pay would be in the range of $25.5K/year, or about $2000 per month. I don't know how much money you live on, but I don't think this is excessive. If this person is from a single income household, and owns a vehicle, they are probably not doing very well... and you begrudge this level of wage... I don't understand...

The LCBO is an incredibly well run store. They are always impeccably clean, well stocked, and should you need assistance, they are always professional and courteous. I think they are doing a great job, and I don't begrudge them making enough money to pay their rent...

(notice, I said rent, because on that wage, you'd be hard pressed to purchase a house without a significant other)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't begrudge anyone. Good for them for finding a job that pays more than the market value of that job. If it were private, they would never be making such an inflated wage because, whether you want to admit it or not, their job isn't worth as much as taxpayers are paying for it. Meanwhile, doctors -- which we have a shortage of -- are unable to make what they're worth.

[err]

I don't begrudge anyone.  Good for them for finding a job that pays more than the market value of that job.  If it were private, they would never be making such an inflated wage because, whether you want to admit it or not, their job isn't worth as much as taxpayers are paying for it.  Meanwhile, doctors -- which we have a shortage of -- are unable to make what they're worth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think fair market value is has been determined by our provincial government and its unions. What you call an inflated wage is, as I think I've already expressed, certainly not enough to live comfortably by... Why should they live in poverty... just because some variety store owners makes their employees live that way...

I'll agree with you about doctors though... I think they should be better paid. I was suprised at how little my GP makes when he told me... What I think we need is a more honest government who, when they say the're putting more money into health care, aren't just giving a construction contract to one of their cronies (as seems to be the regular procedure in Ontario).

[Renegade]

err, if the LCBO was priviatized with open competition, you and eveyone who wanted to pay higher alcohol costs to subsidize the wages of the employees could do so by their choice of where to shop. Conversely everyone who cared about the minimizing the cost of their purchase could also do so by their choice of where to shop.

I suspect however, there would be very few people who would be willing to pay inflated prices and as a result those outlets woudl not be sustainable. So, in a competitive environment the LCBO's employees' current wage levels would not be sustainable.

[cybercoma]

I don't begrudge anyone.  Good for them for finding a job that pays more than the market value of that job.  If it were private, they would never be making such an inflated wage because, whether you want to admit it or not, their job isn't worth as much as taxpayers are paying for it.  Meanwhile, doctors -- which we have a shortage of -- are unable to make what they're worth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think fair market value is has been determined by our provincial government and its unions. What you call an inflated wage is, as I think I've already expressed, certainly not enough to live comfortably by... Why should they live in poverty... just because some variety store owners makes their employees live that way...

I'll agree with you about doctors though... I think they should be better paid. I was suprised at how little my GP makes when he told me... What I think we need is a more honest government who, when they say the're putting more money into health care, aren't just giving a construction contract to one of their cronies (as seems to be the regular procedure in Ontario).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The example of doctors and LCBO workers is directly related. The doctors lack of wages goes to pay for the inflated wages of LCBO workers. I'm sorry but the value of their labour does not equal the current wage the government has decided for them.

Like I said, labour is a market. If they don't pay enough, no one qualified enough will apply for the job. (Unless you have a monopoly on the industry, see healthcare) By them paying too much, they're squandering our tax dollars when they could be making much more in profits.

[Renegade]

If the LCBO workers go on strike, the best thing the government can do is authorize alternate distribution channels such as supermarkets, corner stores, Walmart, even Brewer's Retail. What are the strikers going to do, picket evey store? After a year when strke benefits have run out and the public is comfortable at shopping at non-LCBO outlets, the strikers would come begging back. They should have learnt something from the NHL players. Bob Goodenow should be looking for a new job pretty soon, maybe he can represent the LCBO employees.

[BHS]

I think fair market value is has been determined by our provincial government and its unions.  What you call an inflated wage is, as I think I've already expressed, certainly not enough to live comfortably by...  Why should they live in poverty... just because some variety store owners makes their employees live that way...

I'll agree with you about doctors though... I think they should be better paid.  I was suprised at how little my GP makes when he told me...  What I think we need is a more honest government who, when they say the're putting more money into health care, aren't just giving a construction contract to one of their cronies (as seems to be the regular procedure in Ontario).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Government colluding with unionists over wages is the antithesis of the free market, for crying out loud. Give your head a shake.

And if corner store owners were to jack up the wages of their employees to a level sufficient to satisfy your ideals they'd all go out of business. No longer paying taxes. To keep your socialist pet projects afloat.

You've brought up the issue of construction contracts under health care spending a couple of times, always implying that nefarious business was afoot. Maybe so, but do you really think hospital buildings don't require maintenance, and renovations, and upgrades? How do you think these are going to happen without construction contracts being awarded to someone? Furthermore, I find this distaste for hospital construction somewhat ironic, given that you argue against privatization. If hospitals were privately owned, the government wouldn't need to spend tax dollars on their upkeep, now would they?

[err]

If the LCBO workers go on strike, the best thing the government can do is authorize alternate distribution channels such as supermarkets, corner stores, Walmart, even Brewer's Retail. What are the strikers going to do, picket evey store?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe they should target your job... You're probably overpaid, since you have so much time off to hang out on these chat lines... Or do we have to be a little bit hypocritical when it come to your wages....

They should have learnt something from the NHL players. 

Good point!! I think most of the readers of this forum will relate to how someone making $17/hour is really like the NHL players.... making a million dollars per year... Really good point