Why can't NDP break through?

[stubblejumper]

It seems that the NDPs policies, leaders and trustworthyness always poll quite high but the people just don't vote for them.

How is that they are not the alternative to the scandel ridden Liberals ?

They have become the party for women,families and urbanites.

All the popular policies that Martin is leaning on in this budget are NDP policies.

[Chimera]

IMO, because of Ontario and Quebec.

The NDP don't really seem to connect to Quebecers (sp?) for some reason. Maybe Bakunin or August could provide some insight as to why.

As for Ontario, I wasn't really following politics when Bob Rae was in, but if I remember correctly, he seemed to think that he could spend his way out of a recession. Ontario voters are probably still a little suspect of the NDP because of this, myself included.

I am not sure that they would make a good government yet. Opposition though, hmmm.

[Rovik]

There are several reasons (in my view:)

- Media. The media report very little of the NDP. They tend to focus on the Liberals and the Conservatives. Therefore media drives the public perception, for if people don't hear as much about the NDP, they tend to believe that the NDP are not as important.

And this goes into the next reason.

- Media Bias. Seems that most of the media in the country are either pro-Conservative or pro Liberal. The Sun chain and the National Post are blantantly Conservative (ever read some of their columnists....wild) and the Toronto Star and the CBC tend to be pro-Liberal. The scattered column on the NDP tend to be mostly negative almost to the point of ridicule. And these columnists have a bigger impact on people then many may believe. It's funny, in the last election campaign, many columnists were calling Jack Leyton over the top or just plain happy. But I betcha, if Martin or Harper acted the same way, many of these same columnists would say that they were driven and committed.

- Scare Tactics. Both the Liberals and Conservatives tend to scare potential NDP supporters by saying the if the NDP ever came into power, they would bankrupt the country. Often they will bring up Bob Rae's Ontario NDP govt. of the early 90s as an example. But guess what, Sask. had a horrible Conservative govt. in the 80s when Devine was premier. Newfoundland have had both Liberal and Conservative governments over the years that have had continous deficits but no one ever mentions these examples. No one ever mentions the fact that both Sask. and Manitoba NDP govts. have had many balanced budgets over the years.

The Liberals are also masters at scaring potential NDP supporters during elections by saying that if they vote NDP, they will be opening the door for the evil Conservatives to rule. And then they say that only they, the Liberals can provide what the people of Canada want for education, environment, education, daycare, etc. Funny thing is that they either steal NDP ideas and make them their own or promise to do something and not do it, but come election time they will promise to do the same thing again...a neverending promise.

- Union-Interests. This one I can see to a point. Many people don't like the influence the union has in the NDP and it's true, there is some union influence but not as much influence as people tend to believe. Just as the Conservatives and the Liberals have big-time corporate donations, (and one has too be completely naive if they believe the corporations don't want anything in return such as influence,) the NDP has union donations. Bills have to paid and elections aren't cheap.

And regarding Quebec. Right now there are two choices, the Liberals (federalist) and the Bloc (separtists and federalists pissed at the Liberals because of Adscam.) I don't know what the NDP (or the Conservatives for that matter) can do to make inroads in Quebec. The only thing I could see is if the NDP was headed by a popular Quebec francophone (someone whose first language is French and has lived in Quebec all of his/her life.)

[cybercoma]

It seems that the NDPs policies, leaders and trustworthyness always poll quite high but the people just don't vote for them.

How is that they are not  the alternative to the scandel ridden Liberals ?

They have become the party for women,families and urbanites.

All the popular policies that Martin is leaning on in this budget are NDP policies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because Canadians don't want a United Socialist Republic.

[Rovik]

It seems that the NDPs policies, leaders and trustworthyness always poll quite high but the people just don't vote for them.

How is that they are not  the alternative to the scandel ridden Liberals ?

They have become the party for women,families and urbanites.

All the popular policies that Martin is leaning on in this budget are NDP policies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because Canadians don't want a United Socialist Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prime example of a scare tactic.

[cybercoma]

Prime example of a scare tactic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a socialist party, how is it a scare tactic?

[Rovik]

Prime example of a scare tactic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a socialist party, how is it a scare tactic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By calling Canada the "United Socalist Republic", it is close to calling it the USSR, which is indeed a scary image. And besides I don't believe the NDP is a truly 100% Socialist party though that moniker suggests otherwise.

If I wanted to scare people from voting Conservative, I could say that Canadians don't want Canada to be like the 51st state. Just another example of a scare tactic

[stubblejumper]

I wouldn't say the NDP are socialists,just look at the govts of SK and MB.

They are social liberal democrats.

As far as unions, I don't see why that would scare people any more or less then large international corporations. Anyways unions need to redefine their role in our society. The orginal reasons they were created are nearly obsolete. Most have become a protection racket(allowing bad employees to stay employed) or black mail(wages v strike). I do believe that they are still needed, as the minute they all go away we would return to Indutrial Revolution style work places, but they must find a new issue, maybe indimidation free work places,management sensitivity, etc.

On the quebec question, its like the chicken v egg debate, can you name one prominent francophone social democrat that would be interested in leading the NDP ?

[Netherlands]

I think Ontario's flirtation with the provincial NDP in the early 90s have left voters in our province with the idea that NDPers, while being well-meaning, are not competent enough to run government. I don't think that such a statement is true, but it will take a long time before Ontarions will see otherwise.

The one big problem with the NDP when they were elected into government was that they went into the campaign thinking they would have no chance at winning that election. It was a big surprise for them, but the group of MPPs they elected did not have much experience in government and they made mistakes.

[I miss Reagan]

I don't think NDPers really have a concept of money and where it comes from. They don't really understand that just because they are hungry, killing the goose that lays the golden eggs is economic suicide. They're like Churchill described that just like someone who thinks they can stand in a bucket and lift themselves up by the handle, so can they tax themselves into prosperity. They destroyed BC's economy by doing this and for this same reason Saskatchewan is poor while Alberta is wealthy. Their most defining characteristic is their sense of entitlement. For some strange reason they feel like the world owes them. I'd like to know why they are so ignorant of economics. Is it because they've had everything given to them as union or government workers? But the biggest problem with the NDP in Canada is that they shift the political spectrum.

[THELIBERAL]

You raised a very good question.

It is a mistery why Canadians won't throw their support behind the N.D.P.!

I like some of their ideas. One that I really like is their idea of guaranteeing private pensions.

I think this is a wonderful idea. A man works all his life pays into a pension only to find out just before he retires that the company he works for wasn't holding up their part of the deal and his pension was spent to keep the company afloat.

Just ask the Stelco workers about this. It does happen and on a regular basis!

The N.D.P. has never been elected federally so you cannot accuse them of mis-handling tax payers money!

I don't understand why more people won't support the N.D.P.!

I don't support them because I'm afraid the Conservatives would sneak in the back door!

I vote to keep this bunch of Conservatives out. If the so called merger had not happened I'd probably consider voting N.D.P.!

[Netherlands]

It is ridiculous to compare Saskatchewan's economy to Alberta's, since the latter depends upon oil and without it they would be the same as their neighbours, or even worse. It would be like comparing Saudi Arabia or Kuwait with Jordan and Yemen.

Moreover, it seems that the NDP has done well enough in Saskatchewan that they have held government for numerous years.

As for British Columbia, it would be fair to say that the NDP represents the broad left while the Liberals represent the broad right.

[stubblejumper]

Well then we should spread the word, if you want to keep the Cons/reform/ca out and don't want a corrupt government. Your only choice is to vote NDP.

Personally, I think the Cons will implode and split again.

The Easts Red Tory amd the West 's Christian right(though growing in parts of ONT) are like oil and water.

[I miss Reagan]

It is ridiculous to compare Saskatchewan's economy to Alberta's, since the latter depends upon oil and without it they would be the same as their neighbours, or even worse.  It would be like comparing Saudi Arabia or Kuwait with Jordan and Yemen. 

Moreover, it seems that the NDP has done well enough in Saskatchewan that they have held government for numerous years. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pardon me, but allow me to hand you your ass. Saskatchewan has a lot of natural gas, and quite a bit of oil too. All of my work is Saskatchewan oil properties. The funny part is I've never set foot in Saskatchewan for my work. It's all done here in Calgary. Really the only work done there is drilling and sucking it out of the ground. The oil and the money funnels right back to Alberta. All the planning, organization and high paying jobs are here. Why? Because the NDP's in the early seventies decided to put into legislation an act that would allow them to take away lands from the oil companies. They stole the lands. Good idea right? The government gets the oil and the money from the lands and gives it back to the people right? Wrong, they not only shot the "Golden Goose" they blew the hell out of hit. The oil companies left and took their money with them. They established their infrastructure, their refineries, their head offices etc. in Alberta. Sask. was left with nothing, crappy roads and all. It only now that companies are starting to put some major money into developing Sask. again. Lorne Calvert has tuned into reality as well, he's always kissing butt to big Alberta oil to get us back. This has caused some friction between the fed. ND's and the Sask. ND's.

[Cartman]

Because the NDP's in the early seventies decided to put into legislation an act that would allow them to take away lands from the oil companies. They stole the lands. Good idea right? The government gets the oil and the money from the lands and gives it back to the people right? Wrong, they not only shot the "Golden Goose" they blew the hell out of hit. The oil companies left and took their money with them.

Would you happen to know the title of the legislation? I find this rather interesting.

(Hey IMR, don't you just love the weather in Calgary today? :angry: )

[I miss Reagan]

Because the NDP's in the early seventies decided to put into legislation an act that would allow them to take away lands from the oil companies. They stole the lands. Good idea right? The government gets the oil and the money from the lands and gives it back to the people right? Wrong, they not only shot the "Golden Goose" they blew the hell out of hit. The oil companies left and took their money with them.

Would you happen to know the title of the legislation? I find this rather interesting.

(Hey IMR, don't you just love the weather in Calgary today? :angry: )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brutal eh? Aren't you down in Lethbridge? I hear the Oldman is at capacity!

Anyway it's called The Oil and Gas Conservation, Stabilization and Development Act, 1973. Basically all oil and gas rights down to and including the then producing zones become vested in the Crown as of the first day of 1974. I can give you more specifics on the history if you're really interested, but it's kinda dry.

[Netherlands]

Saskatchewan has a lot of natural gas, and quite a bit of oil too.

According to the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, Saskatchewan has a reserve of 3119 billion cubic feet of natural gas. Alberta has a reserve of 42 548 billion cubic feet. (Yes that's right 42 548!) BC also has more natural gas in reserve at 9225 billion cubic feet. Sadly, the people of New Brunswick have no reserves (funny that they actually point that out in this document - must have done it just for kicks)

http://www.capp.ca/raw.asp?x=1&dt=NTV&e=PDF&dn=80632

It seems that Saskatchewan is much closer to Alberta in the level of crude oil reserves - and it looks as if they are finding new reserves.

http://www.capp.ca/raw.asp?x=1&dt=NTV&e=PDF&dn=80633

I take it that these figures are probably right, so I have to give I miss Reagan some credit for being paritally right, but I think Alberta is the province that got the luckiest in this department. I agree with the point on Sask's stupidity over legislation against oil producers though - such a move is bound to destroy investment.