Ontario Budget 05.

[err]

From today's Toronto Star:

DETROIT - General Motors said Tuesday it lost $1.1 billion US in its first quarter, as the world's biggest vehicle maker faced a sales drop of four per cent.

In addition to slack sales, the company blamed rising health-care costs and special charges.

It looks like the Eureka's previous point might just be valid... because the "rising health-care costs" are borne by companies with health plans in the USA.... Canada has a HUGE advantage over the USA in that regard. Combined with the fact that Ontario has lower taxes... actually makes Canada somewhat attractive to US businesses.... maybe explaining GM's recently announced billion dollar investment in Ontario plants.

However, the Conservatives just want you to think Ontario has higher taxes all round as justification to make cuts to social services... You'll never hear them boasting about Ontario corporations having lower taxes than the USA.... even though it's a well documented fact.

[Conservative1]

I note that Conservative1's authors work for the CD Howe Institute.... a mean-spirited institute whose objective is to widen the gap between the wealthy and the majority of the population...

The C.D. Howe Institute is a NONPARTISAN, nonprofit, organization that's sole aim is to improve Canadians standard of living, by promoting sound economic and social policies. They have proof and imperical evidence to back themselves up! They have no leaning one way or the other towards the rich or the poor...lol. That is merely speculation and propaganda.

You may believe they are "mean spirited', simply because you 'cannot see the forest for the trees'. Supplying ever more social services does no one any justice! Note: this form of governing is NOT self perpetuating!

There is a place for social programs, and neither myself, the C.D Howe Institue, or my political party advocate the dissolusion of all these programs. But lets face it social programs can only do so much.

In order for greater success of individuals the economic backbone of the country must be made as strong as possible, this ultimately is the best 'social service' ANY government can ever provide!

P.S. The articles I provided were no where to be found on C.D. Howe's website. Although it should be noted the authors have contributed C.D. Howe in the past.

[Conservative1]

It looks like the Eureka's previous point might just be valid... because the "rising health-care costs" are borne by companies with health plans in the USA.... Canada has a HUGE advantage over the USA in that regard.

Yes it does help, but we are still not necessarily on a level playing field with the states. Health care is far from free over here for the big three, and other businesses for that matter. Dental, eye care, chriropactic care, ect. the most commonly used services are not provided by the government. Also let it be known that the Big three suffer disproportionaltely from health care costs when compared with other big businesses as they must provide for an immense population of retired workers who are older and reqire these services.

Keep in mind I am by far and away not advocateing we switch to a health care plan just like that of the U.S.

[err]

Health care is far from free over here for the big three, and other businesses for that matter. Dental, eye care, chriropactic care, ect. the most commonly used services are not provided by the government.

I might ask Conservative1 how come these services are no longer covered in Ontario. While our current Dalton McGuilty Liberals were actually the ones to axe chiropractic care from socially subsidized care, I think this is in response to the previous Mike Harris Tory government's slashing of tax revenues by $14 Billion, leaving a huge deficit. There isn't enough money in the Provincial coffers to pay for these services.

I think you'll have a hard time defending the Harris Tories actions as far as health care goes, since Mike Harris and his pal Preston Manning have just release a publication recommending the dissolution of universal health care in Canada. I think this statement is confirmation of the real Tory objectives. It also shows the spirit and goal of the tax cuts he implemented while in power.

By the way, don't for a moment get the impression that I have any respect for the McGuilty Liberals. They knew the level of the Ontario deficit before they got into power, and every one of their election promises was a lie.... They actually have similar objectives to the Tories, but try to not seem quite as mean spirited as the Tories are. You'll note that they didn't repeal any of the Tory tax cuts to the wealthier to ensure that Ontario citizens would still have health care, decent schools, etc.... They are really Tories who went to "used car salesman school".

In Ontario, it seems that the only part that actually cares about citizens over corporations is the NDP party.

[cybercoma]

Health care is far from free over here for the big three, and other businesses for that matter. Dental, eye care, chriropactic care, ect. the most commonly used services are not provided by the government.

I might ask Conservative1 how come these services are no longer covered in Ontario. While our current Dalton McGuilty Liberals were actually the ones to axe chiropractic care from socially subsidized care, I think this is in response to the previous Mike Harris Tory government's slashing of tax revenues by $14 Billion, leaving a huge deficit. There isn't enough money in the Provincial coffers to pay for these services.

I think you'll have a hard time defending the Harris Tories actions as far as health care goes, since Mike Harris and his pal Preston Manning have just release a publication recommending the dissolution of universal health care in Canada. I think this statement is confirmation of the real Tory objectives. It also shows the spirit and goal of the tax cuts he implemented while in power.

By the way, don't for a moment get the impression that I have any respect for the McGuilty Liberals. They knew the level of the Ontario deficit before they got into power, and every one of their election promises was a lie.... They actually have similar objectives to the Tories, but try to not seem quite as mean spirited as the Tories are. You'll note that they didn't repeal any of the Tory tax cuts to the wealthier to ensure that Ontario citizens would still have health care, decent schools, etc.... They are really Tories who went to "used car salesman school".

In Ontario, it seems that the only part that actually cares about citizens over corporations is the NDP party.

Have you actually read the Manning/Harris Report? Nowhere does it suggest that we should get rid of universal health care. Good luck finding the quote in there that references that, to prove me wrong of course.

What they did recommend was giving canadians the FREE CHOICE between public and private care. A combined system like some of the best in the world (see: Japan and Sweden for example) is what they suggest to improve our miserable system.

Take a look at the stats revealed in there. It's pretty pathetic that we're the #2 spender on healthcare, yet we're nowhere near the top as far as quality or access to services goes.

If you think keeping the public system and adding the option of allowing private clinics is going to make matters worse, than I don't know what to say to you. It seems pretty obvious that it will only improve things.

[err]

What they did recommend was giving canadians the FREE CHOICE between public and private care.

That's a neat idea. Wealthy people will have a CHOICE, and the rest of Ontario can wait in line..... A line that will grow longer, and longer....

Publicly funded private medical services, like the P3 hospitals (where our tax dollars go to pay for private service) will just eat our tax dollars. Private businesses exist to make a profit. So if the services cost a similar amount, and you add a large profit for the service provider, it will cost more. More tax dollars from the coffers means less tax dollars left for our public systems.

Ontario should not entertain any private medical care - fix and fund a good universal health-care system that works well for both the wealthy and the poor.

The Conservatives have told us for years that privatizing electricity would result in cheaper electricity, because it private providers would be more efficient. Well, it didn't work out that way here in Ontario. I can only conclude that the Conservative that promoted privatization of electricity were either really stupid, or that they had a mean-spirited agenda... Since you promote similar privatization, which category do you fit into .????

[Conservative1]

I'm mean. I brush my teeth in the morning with the blood and bones of my fallen enemies! I have a swastika tattoo'd on my forehead. I plan on bar codeing everyone as foretold with the numbers 666 (even though it doesn't make any sense at all!) just because i can! NOTHING will stand in my way!

This just in.... political parties don't exist to be mean! They are there to help their country develop along the most prosperous lines possible, for everyone!

[err]

No, I'm not saying your mean... just a bit naive....

This just in.... political parties don't exist to be mean! They are there to help their country develop along the most prosperous lines possible, for everyone!

Another good example of how naive you are. Most politicians, at least in the two popular parties, go into politics for underhanded reasons...

[Conservative1]

This just in.... political parties don't exist to be mean! They are there to help their country develop along the most prosperous lines possible, for everyone!

Another good example of how naive you are. Most politicians, at least in the two popular parties, go into politics for underhanded reasons...

You have no proof to back that up, i'm willing to bet the vast majority of politicians start out for very nobel reasons. They become underhanded later after power corrupts them. Even then undoubtebly this isn't the majority.

Assuming what you say is true (ie. politicians go into politics for underhanded reasons) why would the NDP be any different from the rest of the parties?

[Conservative1]

I still don't get this whole idea of the conservatives (or really any party for that matter) having a "mean spirited agenda" agendas are set according to pary beliefs. I don't think any agenda is "mean spirited" in our government (that even includes the NDP who i despise).

You can disagree with agenda's, however i really doubt any political party sets out to be mean. Likely you simply do not agree with that parties ideology.

[cybercoma]

err, I"ve got an idea for you.

Open up a lemonade stand this summer. I want you to sell your lemonade below cost though, because when it's hot, people are thirsty and they really need a drink. Nevermind the actual value of the product you're selling.

Perhaps food companies, farms, etc. should all operate on nonprofit systems because food is necessary for survival, much more so than certain medical services that aren't.

Just a couple suggestions that your posts imply you'd agree with.

[err]

Open up a lemonade stand this summer. I want you to sell your lemonade below cost though, because when it's hot, people are thirsty and they really need a drink. Nevermind the actual value of the product you're selling.

Cybercoma... We owned the lemonade stand. We should be able to drink the lemonade at the the price it cost to make it.

Since you're into analogies, lets try this one. You built a lemonade stand (with the lemonade making equipment) for $100. It cost 5 cents to make a cup of lemonade. If you sold it to the neighbour for $30 and he would sell you the lemonade for 50 cents a cup, would you go for this. Basically, that's what our last Tory provincial government did.

Do you know why they "fire sold" our facilities. To fix their books so the public wouldn't see the HUGE deficit they created by their insane tax reduction....

[cybercoma]

Open up a lemonade stand this summer. I want you to sell your lemonade below cost though, because when it's hot, people are thirsty and they really need a drink. Nevermind the actual value of the product you're selling.

Cybercoma... We owned the lemonade stand. We should be able to drink the lemonade at the the price it cost to make it.

Since you're into analogies, lets try this one. You built a lemonade stand (with the lemonade making equipment) for $100. It cost 5 cents to make a cup of lemonade. If you sold it to the neighbour for $30 and he would sell you the lemonade for 50 cents a cup, would you go for this. Basically, that's what our last Tory provincial government did.

Do you know why they "fire sold" our facilities. To fix their books so the public wouldn't see the HUGE deficit they created by their insane tax reduction....

Your assertion that we actually owned the labour in the hospitals is ridiculous at best. Doctors and nurses aren't property to be owned and they should be paid what the fair market value for their work is. What incentive do I have to be a doctor in Canada, when I can go to the US and get paid a fair wage for my skills and services?

We're talking about total government control over people's lives here. I'm certain it looked very good on paper in the Soviet Republic too.

[err]

Cybercoma wrote:

We're talking about total government control over people's lives here. I'm certain it looked very good on paper in the Soviet Republic too.

The government is there to serve and protect the public.

I think that I should quote Ontario Conservative Premier Pliney Whitney who said:

Never again will we allow capitalist to make sport and prey of our hydroelectric facilities

You have changed the discussion of Hydro to health care.... A standard technique of both the Conservatives and Liberals. I take this as your conceding to defeat in the argument about publicly owned electricity.

From your post, I gather you would rather pay much more to private companies than pay less to a government run electricity system. However, this privatization is bankrupting many other Ontario businesses... Is that part of your Conservative plan.

[cybercoma]

Cybercoma wrote:

We're talking about total government control over people's lives here. I'm certain it looked very good on paper in the Soviet Republic too.

The government is there to serve and protect the public.

I think that I should quote Ontario Conservative Premier Pliney Whitney who said:

Never again will we allow capitalist to make sport and prey of our hydroelectric facilities

You have changed the discussion of Hydro to health care.... A standard technique of both the Conservatives and Liberals. I take this as your conceding to defeat in the argument about publicly owned electricity.

From your post, I gather you would rather pay much more to private companies than pay less to a government run electricity system. However, this privatization is bankrupting many other Ontario businesses... Is that part of your Conservative plan.

I don't have any sort of plan.

I would agree with the idea that paying $0.10/kwh to a private company making a profit is better than paying $0.02/kwh to a government run venture that loses money (which we'll have to pay back eventually anyway, plus interest).

The last thing I want is the government getting involved in things that should be private business. The government is wasteful with our money (no way in hell a janitor would make $18/hr in a private hospital), so why would you want to give them more of it and put them in charge of more?

You make it sound like private business is a bad thing; meanwhile, it's what drives our economy.

Why not have government intervention on the price of food and water? Those are absolutely necessary or you die, but private businesses continue to operate in the farming and grocery industry.

[err]

The last thing I want is the government getting involved in things that should be private business. The government is wasteful with our money (no way in hell a janitor would make $18/hr in a private hospital), so why would you want to give them more of it and put them in charge of more?

I think that electricity was government business, providing the infrastructure that helps citizens and businesses alike.

Also, I don't begrudge a janitor making $18/hour. In fact, that's not, in my opinion, a super-high wage... $36,000 per year. You couldn't buy a very big house with that wage. You wouldn't be able to take your kids to Disneyland with those wages. So why do you begrudge the poor guy ???

Do you think that because the guy may not have gone to University to be a Lawyer, he should be stuck with WalMart wages....

I'd amost think you had a chip on your shoulder, begrudging a guy who, if he had a couple of children, would be living close to what our government calls the "poverty line".

[cybercoma]

The last thing I want is the government getting involved in things that should be private business. The government is wasteful with our money (no way in hell a janitor would make $18/hr in a private hospital), so why would you want to give them more of it and put them in charge of more?

I think that electricity was government business, providing the infrastructure that helps citizens and businesses alike.

Also, I don't begrudge a janitor making $18/hour. In fact, that's not, in my opinion, a super-high wage... $36,000 per year. You couldn't buy a very big house with that wage. You wouldn't be able to take your kids to Disneyland with those wages. So why do you begrudge the poor guy ???

Do you think that because the guy may not have gone to University to be a Lawyer, he should be stuck with WalMart wages....

I'd amost think you had a chip on your shoulder, begrudging a guy who, if he had a couple of children, would be living close to what our government calls the "poverty line".

I suppose you think we should make minimum wage $18/hour since it's on the poverty line.

[err]

CyberComa wrote:

I suppose you think we should make minimum wage $18/hour since it's on the poverty line.

What a great suggestion. However, $18/hr might be a bit high. If it were raised to $9 or 10/hr, you might just see the number of people on government assistance dwindlle. And most people who make minimum wage don't have Swiss or Cayman bank accounts that they stow away their cash in.... It usually stays in their local economy, which is good for the neighbourhood they live in.

Wouldn't an increase in minimum wage be nice... an incentive to get off welfare or enemployment. The NDP promised it in the last election. So did the Liberals... but the Liberals got in, and we all know how good their word is..;.

[Hugo]

What a great suggestion.  However, $18/hr might be a bit high.

Why do you think that is? Why not make it $100 per hour? No, wait - $1000! $1,000,000! We'd all be stinking rich!

If it were raised to $9 or 10/hr, you might just see the number of people on government assistance dwindlle.

No, actually you'd see everybody currently employed at a wage between minimum and $9-10/hr get fired. When they raised minimum wage by 50 cents in the US, half a million people lost their jobs straightaway, all of whom would have supposedly benefitted from the increase. Most of those people were teenagers, blacks and single mothers.

As Murray Rothbard said, minimum wage does not create any jobs. It just destroys some that already exist. All minimum wage does is prove that you can buy as much unemployment as you want.

[cybercoma]

You see err, the money has to come from somewhere and this is why the autoworkers are in such a bad place. I assume you're familiar with their situation, being an NDP supporter and all. They've demanded so much from the companies that they have to get the money from somewhere. There is a very specific budget these corporations have to follow (...because afterall, they're there to make money) and if they cave to union demands for higher wages and more benefits, the corporation in turn must lay-off so many employees so they can meet their margins.

The unions have f***ed over the employees and they're in a downward spiral.

The same can be said for minimum wage. If I own a small business and I have 10 people on staff to watch my shop, chances are I can't afford to pay all of them an addition $3/hr because the government says so. The money has to come from somewhere and if it's not there either a) I close shop and everyone is unemployed or I fire enough people until I can continue making money.

As they say, "money doesn't grow on trees".

[err]

Cybercoma,

You see err, the money has to come from somewhere and this is why the autoworkers are in such a bad place.

I don't see it that way. Autoworkers in Canada are not in too bad a shape. GM has just announced a Billion dollar investment in Ontario. This can be attributed to the fact that quality of work in Ontario plants is much higher than in their US counterparts (well documented fact), the fact that corporate taxes in Ontario are lower than in any bordering US state (another well established fact), and that they don't have to pay for expensive medical care in Ontario, as they do in the US.

What's more, they have good jobs that pay them well enough to lead good lives. This is an incentive for them to meet quotas, and do quality work, because they value their good jobs.

[err]

Hugo said:

No, actually you'd see everybody currently employed at a wage between minimum and $9-10/hr get fired. When they raised minimum wage by 50 cents in the US, half a million people lost their jobs straightaway, all of whom would have supposedly benefitted from the increase.

Maybe you are right. Maybe they should decrease them to the pay levels they get in Indonesia, and we'd have massive employment... in sweat shops...

Hugo, and are all of them still unemployed ???

[cybercoma]

Cybercoma,

You see err, the money has to come from somewhere and this is why the autoworkers are in such a bad place.

I don't see it that way. Autoworkers in Canada are not in too bad a shape. GM has just announced a Billion dollar investment in Ontario. This can be attributed to the fact that quality of work in Ontario plants is much higher than in their US counterparts (well documented fact), the fact that corporate taxes in Ontario are lower than in any bordering US state (another well established fact), and that they don't have to pay for expensive medical care in Ontario, as they do in the US.

What's more, they have good jobs that pay them well enough to lead good lives. This is an incentive for them to meet quotas, and do quality work, because they value their good jobs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GM? hahaha, you're kidding right?

GM's bonds were downgraded to junk status this week.

:edit: sorry, maybe they weren't officially downgraded....but they're on the verge.

[err]

GM?  hahaha, you're kidding right?

GM's bonds were downgraded to junk status this week.

:edit: sorry, maybe they weren't officially downgraded....but they're on the verge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe its because they put so much faith in the macho SUV lineups that their sales are down, and the Japanese sales are up 12%....