During the last 50 years Americans invaded 200

[PocketRocket]

Has anyone else noticed that the person who started this thread, with unsupported claims and numbers, has failed to make another appearance in the thread, or indeed anywhere in theses forums???

He/she is a one-post wonder, This is his/her ONLY post.

Can you say "troll"???

Judging from the way the thread has progressed, he/she trolled quite successfully.

[cgarrett]

not on the same level.... but 'butchers' all the same.

whether its the last hundred or thousand years is unimportant.

america is now in the same position (from a military and financial position) as egypt, rome, england and a host of historical super powers. power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

americans, as with anyone else, should never _accept_ anything but the best from their own country. don't make apologies for the evil!

[I Miss Trudeau]

do i have to point out the already known?

You obviously feel like you must, given that the 3 posts i quoted were nothing but you stating what virtually no one would deny.

i did not deny the us has done dirty things, nor did i say they had.  you put those words into my mouth.

I did no such thing. I merely said that if you weren't saying that, your posts were nothing but one large, glaring, fallacy.

[moderateamericain]

no my post was accurate the original poster was the fallacy not i, i backed up my stance by statistics and research he made a foolish statement with no data to prove it. I didnt not deny or condone the actions of the United states i merely disproved his statment. why is that concept so hard to understand? i understand that you jump to conclusions and dont take the time to make a true read through (obviously by your post) but to make off the wall assertions about what my intent was is just plain foolish.

[I Miss Trudeau]

I didnt not deny or condone the actions of the United states i merely disproved his statment.

And how, pray tell, did you do that?

[moderateamericain]

well according to

http://www.worldrevolution.org/projects/gl...iefOverview.htm

in the last 100 years 42 million people(rough estimate) have been killed by democide.

if my first article posted is accurate 87 percent of 42 mil works out to be, 36.54 million, thus his quote of 8 million people in the last 50 years cannont mathematically be accurate. 42-36.54=5.46 million difference. And that 87 percent is ONLY communits led countries!!! that means the other 5.46 million were all killed by america. o wait, no they werent. Fascist germany, tribal african wars, the middle east. dang #s dont lie do they. so it is mathematically impossible for america to have killed 8 million people in 50 years. THANK YOU FOR YOU TIME, MOD AMER 4 the win.

[I Miss Trudeau]

There! You finally posted an argument! Doesn't that feel good? And it only took 3 pages.

[Guest eureka]

Not that much of an argument. It only works if 42 million is a correct figure - or reasonable estimate - and it is not. It could be doubled and still is likely to be an underestimate.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Small steps...

Edit: Under "Democide", Wikipedia strongly disagrees with Moderateamericain.

Care to add it up?

[moderateamericain]

Not that much of an argument. It only works if 42 million is a correct figure - or reasonable estimate - and it is not. It could be doubled and still is likely to be an underestimate.

but anyways by all means show me a much more reliable figure, and show where how and who came up with it.

well if my figures are off, please by all means show me the truth. backed up by data and math. id love to see a more accurate percentage of deaths by communism vs total democide in the world.

lets assume im way off the mark. lets say 100mil murdered by governments.

100-87= 13 million. so now you want to tell me that the us is responsible for more than half of the remaining 13 million killed in the last 100 years? how many people did the Nazi's kill? what about africans? i mean come on i think its fairly safe to say that the guy didnt have a clue.

[I Miss Trudeau]

lets assume im way off the mark.  lets say 100mil murdered by governments.

The link I provided you puts it at 203,000,000 people, and that doesn't include cases which are estimated at less than 1,000,000 deaths, so that number is conservative.

So even if we assume that 87% were killed by communist countries, that still leaves 34.6 million people unaccounted for. Take away 8 million for the US, that leaves 26.6 million for all of the non-communist, non-us countries. Seems plausible.

[TokyoTakarazuka]

Under "Democide", Wikipedia strongly disagrees with Moderateamericain.

If we're just talking about democide, which is a term that RJ Rummel coined, that article is incorrect and ought to be changed. Matthew White's website catalogues deaths caused not only by democide, but also war. At no point does he claim he is accounting only for democide and in fact his site also includes estimates of killings not even associated with government, such as anarchy, riots, and exploitation. For instance, his estimate of deaths during World War II includes not only the Holocaust, which was democide, but also soldiers killed in battle, which Rummel would not define as democide. Similarly, if the authors of that Wikipedia article had bothered to read the website, they would have seen that the same thing can be said of most of the events on the list, including World War I, the Russian Civil War, Warlord China, the Indochina War, and others.

Regarding America's alleged democide, even if you include all the deaths of enemy combatants killed by the US Army, which Rummel wouldn't, the figure still wouldn't come even close to 8 million. There's hardly even any point in trying to debate a number like that unless it can be accounted for.

I consider Matthew White's website to be a decent source for death toll statistics, as he makes sure to cite all his data to other reliable sources and then make reasonable estimates. On the other hand, I generally don't consider democide-expert RJ Rummel a very reliable source. His books present interesting ideas but he has a very strong tendency to greatly overestimate certain death tolls when it suits his research.

[moderateamericain]

tokyo you seem to find reliable sources well, could you find something with a much more accurate statistic on how many deaths the United states has directly accounted for. seems nobody believes my statistics from either site. (even tho very few have posted reliable sites to prove that the US HAS killed 8 mill in 50 years) of course we have completely disregarded that the US has done very little of this genocide, most likely far less that the statistic quoted. anyhow please give us a much more reliable figure if you could.

[Guest eureka]

Don't you mean a figure that more closely fits what you want to believe?

Add up the figures for Iraq; Korea; Vietnam; Cambodia and all the little ones.

[I Miss Trudeau]

course we have completely disregarded that the US has done very little of this genocide,

We haven't disregarded it, per se, we've merely pointed out its irrelevance.

[moderateamericain]

Don't you mean a figure that more closely fits what you want to believe?

Add up the figures for Iraq; Korea; Vietnam; Cambodia and all the little ones.

eureka

for someone who post quite a bit, i have not seen you post one link, statistic, or factual statement to back up anything in this thread, are you gonna add to the discussion or just sit in the peanut gallery? In other words shit or get off the pot. the data is relevant i havent seen a single fact proving the US killed 8 million in the last 50 years. unless someone can provide me with substantial proof have a nice day.

[Guest eureka]

There is no need to look them up. There must be almost no one in the world who does not know.

I think someone posted a listing and you have only to check which of those were American inspired. I named a few countries. Are you going to tell me that the deaths in those were not American induced?

So, put it out of your mind if you prefer and have a nice day also.

Ignorance may not be bliss, but it can be a way of facing unpleasant realities.

[moderateamericain]

once again you post without the burden of proof, at any point are you going to address the issue, how many people has the american government had a direct hand in killing. i dont believe its 8 million and not a single person has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have killed that many, using 2 different sources i concluded mathematically (assuming the sources are accurate) that it would be not plausible for america to have killed 8 million, all anyone has done was attack my source backed up by no proof. other than there own opinions. so i ask again, with proof this time, please post how america has killed 8 million in 50 years. i dont want your opinio i want proof. im more than willing to concede on the point with accurate proof.

[Guest eureka]

Look to yourown link and work it out without just reading the figure on wars.

Add in a million or so for Iraq through the oil for food programme. Add in Cambodia and Kissinger's folly. Add in all those proxy deaths in coups and revolutions fomented by the uSA.

Add all the ciivilians in Korea and Vietnam - estimates have put that total at close to the 8 million combined.

Try Noel Chomsky's sites for more accurate information. If you half his estimates, you will probably find 8 million.

I am not going to waste time finding these figure when the world knows them - even if not precisely.

[I Miss Trudeau]

using 2 different sources i concluded mathematically (assuming the sources are accurate) that it would be not plausible for america to have killed 8 million, all anyone has done was attack my source backed up by no proof.

I posted a link that suggests that your numbers are not even 25% of the real numbers. Note that the original poster did not say "8 million through democide," but just "8 million."

You didn't bother addressing that post. So perhaps you ought to, in your eloquent words, "shit or get off the pot."

[TokyoTakarazuka]

Add in a million or so for Iraq through the oil for food programme. Add in Cambodia and Kissinger's folly. Add in all those proxy deaths in coups and revolutions fomented by the uSA. Add all the ciivilians in Korea and Vietnam - estimates have put that total at close to the 8 million combined.

I’ll use Matthew White’s website for my statistics since, as I said, he uses multiple reliable sources in order to make his estimates. The total number of civilian and military deaths he tabulates in the Korean and Vietnam Wars combined is 6.3 million, including the civil war in Cambodia. These two conflicts were by far the bloodiest encounters the United States fought during the Cold War, and yet the total figure is still almost two million short of the 8 million cited. That being said, only a small portion of the strife incurred in Korea and Vietnam should be attributed to the United States; it would be unfair to accredit the United States with all those who died. A portion of those deaths should also lie at the hands of North Korea and North Vietnam, as their soldiers also inflicted many military and civilian casualties. South Vietnam and South Korea were obviously independent countries as well, so a part of the destruction reaped lies with them. In the case of Korea, some of those deaths are Canadian soldiers who were killed in the South, and others belong to Chinese and North Koreans who died at the hands of Canadians. Your statement indicates you also want to include indirect killings, or ‘proxy deaths.’ If we do this, the USSR and the Eastern Bloc, the principle arms supplier of North Vietnam and Korea, also must take a large share of the blame. Although Canada bears little responsibility for the total Vietnamese death toll, Canadian corporations, but not the government itself, were the principle foreign supplier of arms to the United States during the war, so this may also have caused some proxy deaths. That death toll of 6.3 million, which as I said is still a far cry from 8 million, has to be divvied up among a large number of nations.

350,000-500,000 died due to the Iraqi embargo, but once again this death toll must be proportioned among many countries, not the least because they were international sanctions, supported by the UN. Many other nations in the UN that successfully voted to impose those sanctions deserve an equal share of the total death toll, including Canada. In 1998, in the face of Saddam’s intransigence prior to Operation Desert Fox, Jean Chrétien affirmed Canada’s staunch support for Resolution 687, which had authorized the embargo in 1991. Iraq also deserves to take blame for a large portion, probably the dominant portion, of that figure. Saddam Hussein skimmed off billions in aid money from the oil-for-food program, which was intended for the needy but invariably never reached them.

I named a few countries. Are you going to tell me that the deaths in those were not American induced?

Many, in Indochina and Korea, were not, as I have stated. Moreover, North Korea and North Vietnam are in particular the nations that deserve especial criticism for their roles, far more so than the USSR, the United States, China, Canada, or the Southern governments. I say this because it’s important to keep in mind that in both the Korean and Vietnam Wars, the North was the original aggressor. The major international provocation that started the Korean War was the North Korean invasion of the South in 1950, which subsequently triggered a UN intervention. Similarly, few would disagree the first significant international aggression of the Vietnam War was when North Vietnam sent armed soldiers and weaponry into South Vietnam in 1959 to support an ailing communist insurgency. The same can be said about the civil war in Cambodia. Viet Cong soldiers were violating Cambodian neutrality and arming the Khmer Rouge by the early-1960’s, long before the United States was greatly involved. King Sihanouk had by 1967 become so aggravated by the arrogance of the North Vietnamese that he then personally authorized the first American bombing raids and border attacks against communist sanctuaries in Cambodia. During World War II Canada and the United States participated together in war crimes that far exceeded any atrocity by any side in Korea and Vietnam. I believe that part of the reason why we’ve been forgiven for our sins is that Canada was not the country that started the war, but rather, we were defending a nation that was attacked, just as the United States was in Vietnam and Korea.

So, we might consider attributing half of the deaths sustained in Korea and Indochina to the United States, as well as half the deaths caused by the Iraqi embargo. Considering the individual circumstances of those events, which I have outlined, this seems to me to be extremely punitive. Nonetheless, using even that high fraction yields a total that does not even reach 3.2 million, let alone 8.

As for ‘proxy deaths’, of course the United States is not responsible for all the deaths caused by any war or coup it supported vocally or materially. In each such conflict, there were numerous parties and if we do decide to include ‘proxy deaths’ to determine a country’s murderousness, each nation must be held accountable for only a reasonable portion of the total death toll. For instance, in 1970 the Trudeau government in Canada suddenly withdrew all foreign aid from the democratically-elected administration of Salvador Allende in Chile, in protest of his Marxist policies and despite increasing economic difficulties in Chile. Pinochet’s subsequent military coup of 1973 was openly welcomed by our ambassador, and economic aid was immediately restored. We were even reluctant to take in Chilean refugees so as not to antagonize the new rightist regime. I refuse to accept that it’s fair to hold Canada accountable for the deaths of all 8,000 people killed by Pinochet. It simply means that we bear responsibility for a portion of the blame, not all of it. Pinochet and his supporters are obviously the guiltiest party, not Trudeau. The United States and West Germany, for backing the coup as well, must also accept responsibility for some of those deaths. Each involved party should accept responsibility for a share of those murders.

So even if we assume that 87% were killed by communist countries, that still leaves 34.6 million people unaccounted for. Take away 8 million for the US, that leaves 26.6 million for all of the non-communist, non-us countries. Seems plausible.

Of course, this data only proves that there are 34.6 million people unaccounted for. Unless someone can account for them, it could just as easily be that the United States killed 1.6 million and the Netherlands killed 33 million, or any other combination for that matter.

I posted a link that suggests that your numbers are not even 25% of the real numbers. Note that the original poster did not say "8 million through democide," but just "8 million."

Whether democide to not, what I want is for someone to account for where those deaths are coming from exactly. The way I see it, the only possible way that United States’ death total would exceed 8 million is if two conditions were met simultaneously. Firstly, that indirect ‘proxy’ deaths be included, as opposed to only direct deaths, and secondly, that all the deaths of each conflict be entirely attributed to the United States, as opposed to only a reasonable share.

Judging from Eureka’s post, however, that is exactly what he intends to do; I believe, wrongly.

[Guest eureka]

You take a very one-sided view of political history. I am not interested in the Soviet or others share for the purposes of this discussion, though.

However, you ignore the heart of Korea and of Vietnam. The North in neither instance was responsible so directly as you state. In both cases, an unpopular and tyrannical ritht wing regime governed propped up by the US. In both, the sympathies of the people of the South was with the anti-government, and anti-US forces. The US was, therefore, responsible in that it prevented the democratic will of the people from prevailing and made civil war an inevitability.

The numbers that you het from White's website do not agree with those that have been commonly cited on the numerous investigative programmes and reports in the past couple of years. The US, quite deliberately, and without the cooperation of its allies, slaughtered hundreds of tousands of innocent civilians in Korea -for one example- lest the refugees had been infiltrated by enemy.

The numbers killed by US action in Cambodia have been put as high as 2 million by some investigators - I recall hearing Kissinger trying to defend himself on that.

The oil-for-food programme was kept in force at US insistence when others at the UN wished to end it. The numbers killed are far higher than you suggest. 500,00 children under five died before the new attack on Iraq. Take the number older and add in adults. What the number is, I have not seen, but it is certainly well over 1 million. Since the invasion, the rate of deaths amongst the civilian population has increased. That is known.

Proxy wars have been fought around the world on behalf of the US in dozens of countries. The numbers who died in them are not easily calculable. They include many hundreds of thousands of direct deaths and many more who have died from the same factors as have caused civilian deaths in Iraq: malnutrition and deprivations of many sorts, consequential on the wars.

[Argus]

You take a very one-sided view of political history. I am not interested in the Soviet or others share for the purposes of this discussion, though.

I bet you won't even understand why the irony in the above makes others laugh.

However, you ignore the heart of Korea and of Vietnam. The North in neither instance was responsible so directly as you state. In both cases, an unpopular and tyrannical ritht wing regime governed propped up by the US. In both, the sympathies of the people of the South was with the anti-government, and anti-US forces. The US was, therefore, responsible in that it prevented the democratic will of the people from prevailing and made civil war an inevitability.

Ideological diarrhea.

If you want to assign blame for the Korean and Vietnam wars you have to include the homicidal Communists of North Korea and North Vietnam who slaughtered millions without a second thought. Not to mention their supporters in Communist China and the Soviet Union which prodded them to war and supplied them with massive amounts of war material as well as advisors, and in some cases, particularly Korea, with soldiers as well. The right wing governments in the south were not popular, but neither was there a great deal of enthusiasm for living under brutal Communist dictatorship.

Through American and other aid, including Canada's, South Korea defeated the North and has progressed into a succesful democratic nation. North Korea is still a brutal thuggish Communist regime, and Vietnam is still a tyranny.

The numbers killed by US action in Cambodia have been put as high as 2 million by some investigators - I recall hearing Kissinger trying to defend himself on that.

And how many were killed by Cambodia's maniacal Communist regime? Will we ever know how many died in the killing fields?

The oil-for-food programme was kept in force at US insistence when others at the UN wished to end it.

You mean like the French? Because they were being bribed by Sadaam?

Proxy wars have been fought around the world on behalf of the US in dozens of countries.

Against proxies fighting for the Soviet Union and China and Cuba. But your bigotry and fanatical hatred of the US means you want to blame them entirely. That's sheer ignorance and stupidity.

[Guest eureka]

There is no irony in my statement, Argus. The point is American involvement not the Soviet Union or anyone else.I would say that it is your hatred of anything not American that makes you miss the obvious if I did not believe it was your ignorance and stupidity that causes you to not understand what you read, no matter how simply put and straightforward.

The rest of my post is equally clear. In both Korea and Vietnam, the mass of the people opposed the Right Wong dictatorships in the South.

You anti-French position has not the slightest relevance to the number of deaths in Iraq.

[moderateamericain]

You take a very one-sided view of political history. I am not interested in the Soviet or others share for the purposes of this discussion, though.

I bet you won't even understand why the irony in the above makes others laugh.

However, you ignore the heart of Korea and of Vietnam. The North in neither instance was responsible so directly as you state. In both cases, an unpopular and tyrannical ritht wing regime governed propped up by the US. In both, the sympathies of the people of the South was with the anti-government, and anti-US forces. The US was, therefore, responsible in that it prevented the democratic will of the people from prevailing and made civil war an inevitability.

Ideological diarrhea.

If you want to assign blame for the Korean and Vietnam wars you have to include the homicidal Communists of North Korea and North Vietnam who slaughtered millions without a second thought. Not to mention their supporters in Communist China and the Soviet Union which prodded them to war and supplied them with massive amounts of war material as well as advisors, and in some cases, particularly Korea, with soldiers as well. The right wing governments in the south were not popular, but neither was there a great deal of enthusiasm for living under brutal Communist dictatorship.

Through American and other aid, including Canada's, South Korea defeated the North and has progressed into a succesful democratic nation. North Korea is still a brutal thuggish Communist regime, and Vietnam is still a tyranny.

The numbers killed by US action in Cambodia have been put as high as 2 million by some investigators - I recall hearing Kissinger trying to defend himself on that.

And how many were killed by Cambodia's maniacal Communist regime? Will we ever know how many died in the killing fields?

The oil-for-food programme was kept in force at US insistence when others at the UN wished to end it.

You mean like the French? Because they were being bribed by Sadaam?

Proxy wars have been fought around the world on behalf of the US in dozens of countries.

Against proxies fighting for the Soviet Union and China and Cuba. But your bigotry and fanatical hatred of the US means you want to blame them entirely. That's sheer ignorance and stupidity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i dont think he has a anti-french position at all, how is pointing out the oil for food scandal anit french, clearly an irrational emotional jump in logic there, your better than that.

i think its safe to say that tokoyo has summed it up better than i have, i think there are far too few fact to show that the us has killed 8 million in the last 50 years, unfortunetly we have indirectly participated in killing quite a few people, the only thing i can say is the average american is not a bloody handed cold killer who scoffs at mass genocide. I merely defend my country by showing there ARE far worse butchers out there that get little or no anger directed at them. My question is why would you target america for less than 10 percent of all the murders commited by a governments when countries like the USSR, Vietnam, and China are far worse? where the out cry against them? Now i understand as a democratic nation we should be held to a higher standard, but for canadian citizens to specifically target america and completely disregard there own involvment (directly or indirectly) and completely not take into equation what others have done, is very hypocritical.