Justice for All

[RB]

Sorry, if you read this posting previously, it is now translated to French with parts in English - This is a Canadian political forum so I thought it would be alright.

J’avais beaucoup d’appréhension et peur l’autre jour – on devrait rencontrer une bonhomme qui a commis un assassination à l’âge de 17 ans et était puni à la vie au prison.

De là, j’ai partagé quelques informations il à remis avec son vue sur la système de prison et nous avons répondu.

Il voulait que nous pour nous-même demander des quéstions comment la société devrait punir les gens qui ont commit des crimes, plus violents.

Il conseil que la système du prison ne fonctionne pas.

La déroulement de l’homme:

Né dans les années 1960. Son environnement n’était pas amicable et il était battu fréquemment. À l’âge de 14 ans, il est parti de son maison et était mis dans la Société D’aidance des Enfants, et je suppose qu’il y a du verité dans les histoires nous entendons de ces enfants jeunes, il est sorti sur les rues en vendant des drogues et les utilisant.

Après quelquetemps, il est dans la facilité de détention pour les jeunes. Il nous a assuré que maintenant il a réflèté qu’il était confus et perdu, et dans la plupart façon, fâché. Un jour, quelqu’un était juste dans son ligne de rage, qu’il a tué l’homme par couteau.

Suivant, il était puni à la vie au prison.

La vie du prison:

Note: Je vais abuser le mot : Système

Il y a des criminels malicieux dans la système du prison. Comme un adolescent, tu dois adopter pour survivre un système du sécurité maximum. La moment tu arrives dans la système, tu est en battaile: premièrement pour ton ville, suivant, pour ton après-vie tu as. Pour cet raison, il était transferré à 5 différents systèmes de prison. Il était parollé après 13 années.

Dans la système du prison, tu apprends plusieurs façons de survivre et tu enforce tes émotions. Quand même, il était l’homme ravageux et à la date du parole, plus fâché. Il a revenu au drogues et depuis un an, revenu à système du prison encore, pour 7 ans de plus.

Transformation Personnel:

Il a pris trop de drogues dans la prison et décidé il a besoin de transformer et devenir un homme plus conçernant.

Ça veut dire, manipuler contre ces conditions établis dans la prison.

Parce qu’il était dans la système du prison avant, et maintenant il veut changer, il sentait qu’il n’était pas en accord avec la groupe des prisonnier, non qu’il peut s’accorder avec les guardes.

C’est maintenant difficile a ajuster à la vie communautaire, les choses qu’on trouve facile à faire, il doit apprendre à cet âge. Il est sur contrôle intensif par la boarde de parôle.

De là, quelques points je voudrais mentionner:

Anyway some of the points I wanted to take up:

- prison is where poor people live

- middle class white people are not in the prison

- many people who are serving federal time should not be in the prison system like a petty theft or minor offense.

- Men are mostly found in prison

- People tend to get worst with the prison system

- He sees the problem of crimes as society’s breakdown

- Society do not know about crimes and hate those who commit it

- Governments respond to public crys to punish and revenge criminals

- Then a good business man says why pay so much money to keep criminals in prison.

- bring back the death penalty

Il conseil la système de la prison faîtes des gens méchants. Il y a quelquechose appellé la responsabilité personelle que les-uns dans la prison devrait utiliser en retrourne d’étre incarcéré pour plusieurs années. Regardez-le comme ça, les gens qui sont dans la système de prison pour la vie, ont rien à perdre. S’ils commitent des crimes plus viscieux, donner un autre sentence pour vie n’est pas effective.

Les systèmes de prison utilise des tests de battéries pour apprendre de contrôler toi-même. Chaque test consécutif que tu passe, tu est donné une étoile. C’est quelques bureaucrocies systématiques tu es donné qui ne s’inquiète pas pour la responsabilité.

Pendant la parôle, la système espère que tu soies gratuit sauf il peuvent mettre toutes sortes de bannières et restrictions qui le fait impossible de survivre.

La justice restorative

Il a parlé de la justice restorative qui quéstionne comment ça utiliser les vouloirs de ce qui est passé. De la personne qui a commit le crime de reçevoir la responsabilité et la système pour être supportif au victimes.

Cependant, il n’y a pas une système en place pour être reconnue pour la redemption. Si tu as commis le crime, tu es guaranti à des consèquences négatifs.

La système de prison est structurée qui exercise la puissance dans des façons intesifié et délibéré. Il y a un séparation d’ils au nous.

Il dit la punition et retribution a déhumanisé la peuple qui a déjà était déhumanisé.

He says punishment and retribution dehumanised people who have been already dehumanised.

Ce qu’il suggère est un program de reconnaître la potential et valeur d’un person qui aide a restorer quelquechose perdu comme la humanité.

What he is suggesting is a program to recognise potential and worth of a person to help restore something lost like humanity.

En quoi tu penses?

What do you think?

[caesar]

most of it is nonsense. excuses for those who like to do the crime but not the time. However, I would like to see those in prison to get more rehabilitation; not just punishment. I think they should be required to work and pay for the costs of keeping them away from innocent victims. It would teach them a trade to use when they are free.

[Tawasakm]

The logic of posting here in French (or a language other then English) always escapes me. You know everybody who posts here is fluent in English but you don't know that everybody is fluent in French. I'll go translate this to read it shall I?

[Tawasakm]

For interest here is an automatic translation. Note the poor strructure.

"I was much apprehension and afraid the other day - one should meet a catch which made a assassination at the 17 years age and was punished with the life with the prison. From there, I shared some information it with given with his sight on the system of prison and we answered. It wanted that us for ourself to ask quéstions how the company should punish people who have committed crimes, plus violent one. It council which the system of the prison does not function. Unfolding of the man: Born in the years 1960. Its environment was not amicable and it was frequently beaten. At the 14 years age, it left its house and was put in the Company Of aidance Children, and I suppose that there is verity in the stories we hear these young children, it left on the streets by selling drugs and using them. After quelquetemps, it is in the facility of detention for the young people. It ensured us that now it réflèté that it confused and was lost, and in the majority way, annoyed. One day, somebody was right in his line of rage, which it killed the man by knife. According to, it was punished with the life with the prison. Life of the prison: Note: I will deceive the word: System There are malicious criminals in the system of the prison. Like a teenager, you must adopt to survive a system of maximum safety. The moment you arrive in the system, you is in battaile: firstly for your city, following, for your after-life you have. For this reason, it was transferré with 5 various systems of prison. It was parollé after 13 years. In the system of the prison, you learn several ways of surviving and you enforce your emotions. Nevertheless, he was the ravageux man and at the date of the word, more annoyed. He has returned to drugs and for one year, income with system of the prison still, for 7 years more. Transformation Personnel: He took too many drugs in the prison and decided he needs to transform and become a man more conçernant. That wants to say, to handle against these conditions established in the prison. Because it was in the system of the front prison, and now it wants to change, it felt that it was not in agreement with the group of the prisoner, not which it can agree with the guardes. It is now difficult A to adjust with the Community life, the things which one finds easy to make, it must learn at this age. It is on intensive control by the boarde of parôle. From there, some points I would like to mention: Anyway some of the items I wanted to take up: - live prison is where poor people - middle class white people are not in the prison - many people who federal are serving time should not Be in the prison system like has petty theft gold minor offence. - Men are mostly found in prison - People tightens to get worst with the prison system - He sees the problem of crimes have society' S breakdown - Society C not know butt crimes and hate those who made it - public Governments respond to crys to punish and revenge criminals - Then has good business man says why pay so much money to keep criminals in prison. - bring back the death penalty It council the system of the prison ridges of malicious people. There is quelquechose appellé the personelle responsibility that the-ones in the prison should use in retrourne to be imprisoned for several years. Look at it like that, people who are in the system of prison for the life, have anything to lose. If they commitent viscieux crimes, to give another sentence for life is not effective. The systems of prison uses tests of batteries to learn how to control yourself. Each consecutive test that you passes, you is given a star. It is some bureaucrocies systematic you are given who do not worry for the responsibility. During the parôle, the system hopes that you silks free except it can put all kinds of banners and restrictions which makes it impossible to survive. Restorative justice It spoke about the restorative justice which quéstionne how that to use the vouloirs what passed. Of the person who A committed the crime to reçevoir the responsibility and the system to be supportif with the victims. However, there is not a system places from there to be recognized for the redemption. If you committed the crime, you are guaranti with consèquences negative. The system of prison is structured which exercise power in ways intesifié and deliberated. There is a separation of they with us. It says the punishment and retribution déhumanisé populates it which A already was déhumanisé. He says punishment and retribution dehumanised people who cuts been already dehumanised. What it suggests is a program to recognize the potential and value of a person which helps has restorer quelquechose lost like humanity. What He is suggesting is has program to recognise potential and worth of has person to help restore something lost like humanity. In what you do think?"

Translation by Google Language Tools.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear RB,

I believe caesar is right on the money with...

However, I would like to see those in prison to get more rehabilitation; not just punishment. I think they should be required to work and pay for the costs of keeping them away from innocent victims. It would teach them a trade to use when they are free.

I also believe the entire 'prison' system needs to be re-focused.

prison is where poor people live

It is where people with no respect for other people live...

middle class white people are not in the prison

They don't make up the majority of repeat offenders...but it would be a lie to say that none of them have gone to prison...

He sees the problem of crimes as society’s breakdown

While I am somewhat in agreement, for the degredation of society can be attributed to 'moral decay', I am still able to choose my path, and it is not one of crime.

[RB]

Tawasakm Posted on Mar 26 2005, 02:42 AM

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The logic of posting here in French (or a language other then English) always escapes me. You know everybody who posts here is fluent in English but you don't know that everybody is fluent in French. I'll go translate this to read it shall I? 

Sorry, Tawasakm - without being specific, in order to engage that piece of writing on the forum for discussion, an alternative is French - and it is only tiny bits.

[Argus]

The prison system is a mess. It needs to be gutted and rebuilt along new lines. I agree with the need for rehabilititation, at least for minor crimes, but one of the things which needs to be taught is work. You need to do more than teach them some kind of skill. You need to imbue most of these guys with the culture and habit of working every day.

I would establish prison camps for minor offenders, which should be co-ed. Let them work, and work hard, and get used to it. Weed out the violent types and put them in seperate establishments. One of the problems with prisons is the level of violence in them. Minor, non-violent offenders wind up being tossed in with violent offenders. I would keep them seperate.

I would also rip up current parole laws, which today are automatic entitlements rather than rewards for good behaviour and a williness to change ones life. Right now, the system says you get one day off for every day of 'good behaviour'. That means if you don't get caught doing anything for six days, and then get caught trying to escape on the seventh. You still get credit for six days of good behaviour. Next week, you get into a fight on one day, and get caught with drugs on another, you only get 5 days credit. Ridiculous. Parole and time off should be a reward only given to those who are demonstrably trying to turn their lives around.

For violent offenders, toughen conditions. Even in the UK, hard labour is routine in prisons. One of the problems we face is that prison is not neccesarily so terrible if you're, say, a member of a street gang, or some other scuzzy criminal type. What's different? You still hang around with your pals all day, do drugs, beat up, intimidate and rob others, and you even get regular conjugal visits, even if you're not married. Put them to work breaking rocks. Make prison a miserable, draining, exhausting experience they won't want to ever return to. These guys shouldn't be hanging around playing cards and watching TV after having beaten someone half to death or commited multiple rapes.

Murderers and violent lifers should have their own prison, where they can rot in cages.

[RB]

Ok I understand that currently for deviant behaviours we have laws that punish offenders by fines, incarceration etc. They pay the price for the crime.

Lock 'em up in cages and throw away the keys has little chance of success. Plus as decent working people we have to contribute towards housing and feeding them - which is more outrage. I mean each person convicted for life cost us 1.5 million to keep them there for the rest of their lives.

I wanted to see what you think about restorative justice. For justice we keep relying on formal justice system to work and deal with crime.

If someone commits a crime usually the police come to get them and if convicted, they are remove from society.

This is not necessarily, me, siding with the criminals. But, I wanted to see how we could address the criminal needs. I mean most criminals are far removed from themselves or they are rarely reminded of the crimes they committed. I mean they are dealt with impersonally in which they feel more alienated hence they continue to re-offend.

Most of the time the victims remain just that victims and the community never get involve in participation of their own protection.

What do you think of a victim-offender reconciliation program?

In New Zealand there is circle sentencing - victims and community outline their expectations and offenders and families respond.

It is an alternative

Also since majority of the crimes are commited between the ages of 14-21 before these young ones become potential problems how can we manage delinquency

[Argus]

Basically, the entire criminal justice system is a mess. Every part of it fails to meet society's needs and desires, from the level of policing, inadequate with respect to many types of crimes, the slow, creaky, and often unjust judicial system, to the prisons themselves, to the parole system and the boards that administer it. And, of course, the legal system under which they all operate is inadequate, slow, unjust, and hideously expensive.

Laws, especially for violent offenses, need to be strengthened, and minimal sentencing put in place. The means by which judges are appointed has left us with irresponsible, uncaring, and often incompetent judges who owe their appointments to friends in high places rather than competence and legal accumen.

I would really like to see a formal, statistical study of the sentences given out for crimes. It is my impression, gleaned solely through media reports, but uncontradicted, that if you were to put up a chart on any given crime, be it rape, manslaughter, break and enter, or whatever, listing the spread of sentences given from lowest to highest, more than ninety percent of the sentences would come well below the halfway or median point between the mandated minimum and maximum sentences allowable for that crime.

Put another way, if the law allows for a sentence between 1 and 10 years for a given crime, almost all sentences will be well below five years, with only a tiny scattering exceeding that, and a miniscule number up at the top. I have never, for example, seen the maximum

sentence given for sexual assault, regardless of the severity and brutality of the crime, and the lengthy record of the individual committing it.

[Argus]

Lock 'em up in cages and throw away the keys has little chance of success.  Plus as decent working people we have to contribute towards housing and feeding them - which is more outrage. I mean each person convicted for life cost us 1.5 million to keep them there for the rest of their lives.

This is a short-sighted statement. It's like government not properly repairing our roads because "we don't have the money". Yet, ultimately, the money is all of ours, and if we don't spend it to fix the roads we will spend a lot more on the constant repairs to our cars. The societal cost, similarly, of not slamming down heavily on crime is the cost of millions of people having to buy extra locks,

stronger doors, bars for the windows, having to pay for alarm systems, not going out at night for fear of crime, paying extra on items we buy because the store loses so much to thieves, and the manufacturer has to pay for security guards and alarms.

We will pay one way, or pay the other.

I wanted to see what you think about restorative justice.  For justice we keep relying on formal justice system to work and deal with crime.

If someone commits a crime usually the police come to get them and if convicted, they are remove from society.

Oh if only that were so. Unfortunately, with our lax parole system and inadequate sentencing, we have people being processed out and in and out and in. The lack of real rehabilitation means that in many cases we're just postponing the criminal's next crime for a few months or years.

Restorative justice would only work for economic crimes, and even then only if the criminal has a means to repay those from whom he has stolen. In most cases they don't have that means. How do you work restorative justice for someone who has commited a string of rapes, or beaten someone to near death in a gleeful swarming incident?

I mean they are dealt with impersonally in which they feel more alienated hence they continue to re-offend.

I think there are a couple of ways to lower the rate of recividism. We should start with young offenders.

You have a fifteen year old who is arrested for beating up an innocent old man. He knows the system won't do much to him. He probably, in fact, will be smirking and bragging to his friends by the next day, after being released into his parents' custody. A year or so later, presuming the Crown hasn't bargained with his Crown attorney to the point where he's given a couple of days of community sentence, he'll go before a youth judge, where, in all likelihood, he'll be given a slap on the wrist and a stern talking to.

What does this teach him? That he can do what he wants. Next time it's a knife he uses on someone he doesn't like. Again he gets arrested (maybe, if we're lucky), and again he gets a small punishment, maybe probation. He continues his violent ways, occasionally getting caught, and getting slapped on the wrists. When he turns eighteen, his record is wiped. He knows that once again he can get away with a lot, for he's "got no record", and continues commiting crimes. What we are teaching this type of individual is that he can pull this crap without much punishment. We also, through a month here, three months there, get them innoculated to the idea of incarceration. They lose their fear of it. Why should they be afraid? Inside are guys just like them they can hang around with, do drugs with, gang with, bully others with. It's all good. And so they're in and out, in and out, in and out their entire life.

Now take that same fifteen year old, arrested for beating up the old man, try him quickly*, ship him to a remote wilderness camp where he'll work at hard labour for a couple of months, twelve hours a day, on healthy but tasteless food. No TV. No music. No books. No video games. No females. No privacy.

What kind of message is society delivering now? Is he going to want to go back? Is he going to get used to this type of incarceration and not much care if he gets into trouble again?

What do you think of a victim-offender reconciliation program?

In New Zealand there is circle sentencing - victims and community outline their expectations and offenders and families respond.

Guilt tripping people only works to the extent those people feel guilt, or feel it more than they do "want", as in, they want drugs, and need your money to get them. Career criminals aren't going to stop out of guilt. Street gang members are virtual sociopaths, and care about no one but themselves. Lock them up in work camps forever, let them work for their room and board to reduce the cost. Better yet, privatize the prisons. The private sector seems able to do this job at a fraction the cost the public sector requires.

[RB]

Argus

Lock 'em up in cages and throw away the keys has little chance of success.  Plus as decent working people we have to contribute towards housing and feeding them - which is more outrage. I mean each person convicted for life cost us 1.5 million to keep them there for the rest of their lives.

This is a short-sighted statement. It's like government not properly repairing our roads because "we don't have the money....."

I am thinking more of a market place for added benefits. Are you saying that if you lock up offenders, you can deter them from committing more crimes if you increase the sentencing from 3 years to 5 years? But where are the added benefits if they would have already been "reformed" by year 3.

Put another way, if the law allows for a sentence between 1 and 10 years for a given crime, almost all sentences will be well below five years, with only a tiny scattering exceeding that, and a miniscule number up at the top. I have never, for example, seen the maximum

sentence given for sexual assault, regardless of the severity and brutality of the crime, and the lengthy record of the individual committing it.

Ok I wanted to agree with you and also note that there are disparities in sentencing - do you think that offenders distinguish from sentence time and jail time?. well I think that doing a minimum sentences bears no impact on the serverity of the sentence to the offenders.

Restorative justice would only work for economic crimes, and even then only if the criminal has a means to repay those from whom he has stolen. In most cases they don't have that means. How do you work restorative justice for someone who has committed a string of rapes, or beaten someone to near death in a gleeful swarming incident?

I mean you do have to take into consideration the nature of these crimes, the age of the person, and the certainty of the offense. Youths commit crimes because they have NO clear roles and direction defined for them and they are breaking away from parental control. The more serious crimes are committed by older people.

Putting low-rated offenders such as youths into jails for long period would not work - and my speaker is suggesting restorative justice might be an alternative - he was a youth @ age 17 with a first crime.

Also I recognized that offenders with serious history are the best predictor of recidivism.

Laws, especially for violent offenses, need to be strengthened, and minimal sentencing put in place. The means by which judges are appointed has left us with irresponsible, uncaring, and often incompetent judges who owe their appointments to friends in high places rather than competence and legal acumen.

Argus did I gleam that you are suggesting a removal of discretion of one level of the justice system and shift decisions to some other level.

Here is a flow chart for decision making

Adult process flow chart

I mean these lawyers are always trying to circumvent charges e.g. move to dismiss charges and poor juries who initially want to convict with excessive punishment is now swayed. Would persecutors take a burden for justice?

[waynej625]

RB; Have you ever worked within the justice system in Canada? It seems from your comments that you are sprouting the psycho-babble some of these social engineers and bleeding heart's refer to as "Restorative Justice." I have worked within the system with both adults and Youth's for over 10 years, and I can tell you that rehabilitation comes from within, and since most of our criminal's today started on this path when they were quite young, the lack of deterence gives them little incentive to change their ways. It starts by first having at least one parent enable their behaviour by taking on anyone who attempts to make them accountable for that behaviour, from teacher's to police, to probation officers, and yes even the judges themselves. Many of these parent's will take anyone to task who even attempts to make these young people accountable. Many of these young adults have been at this type of behaviour since they have been young offenders. By the time many have reach the age of 18 they simply graduate into the adult system as a natural progression. Why not, nobody so far including the system itself has made them accountable.

Now we have in place a system called community sentencing whereby these individual's can roam at will, until they either get stopped by the police inadvertantly or they get caught breaking another law. Yes in some jurisditions they use electronic monitoring to keep tabs on these people, but in my Province the politicians decided that electronic monitoring was too costly so they opted instead to have organizations like the John Howard Society make random calls to those on house arrest to make sure they are not violating the terms by being out when they are not supposed to be. I was one of those people making those calls, and I can tell you that the people I was charged with contacting, I had never met before in my life, and when the telephone was answered, I had no idea that the person who came on the line was actually the person I was supposed to be monitoring. In fact, quite often it was a father, mother, brother, sister, or friend who conveniently agreed to take any calls. How do I know this, because many have been caught doing that very thing. In too many of these cases the court's, instead of revoking the community sentence, simply extend the community sentence, because the Province has closed so many jails, that there is simply no beds to place them in.

If there is little or no deterence, as is the case for most offences in Canada, why would they ever decide to change the way they do business? Rehabilitation for the most part is a myth

[Slavik44]

most of our criminal's today started on this path when they were quite young.

Then perhpas we should catch them when they are quite young, but instead of stigmitazing them and socializing them into a deliquent environment, excluding them from mainstream society by placing them in prison we should work towards re-integrating them back into society. Because as it is we simply socialise children into a criminogenic environment at prison and then throw them bakc on the street with out aqequate help or support, that is what is so assinine about the criminal justice system at all levels. To some extent their needs to be some punishment, but punishment should not be the primary goal or only focus, or it will just lead to more crime later on. Instead a case could be made that a lack of funding deprives many people of the ability to re-integrate.

Rehabilitation for the most part is a myth

Considering the true focus of our justice system is not on rehabilitation, it would be incorrect to view it as a myth.

Here is some examples of what I mean, in the early 90's in prison lectures were cut by Corrections Canada, they claimed a shifting focus to basic literacy. However funding for all educational programs in prisons including basic literacy were cut, not just at the university level. Now I don;t know about you, but it would be hard to expect someone who cant read,

According to Corrections Canada figures, roughly 80 per

cent of the federal inmate population reads below the grade ten level, with 66 per cent below the grade eight level.

to be able to integrate themselves back into Canadian society. Instead they choose to focus on what woudl be deemd symptoms such as substance abuse. While that is all fine and dandy, if the conditions that led the person to do drugs, and then commit crimes to support the habbit, is not changed, it is hard for us to expect that such a person will change.

There have also been some interesting studies done on substance abuse, I have two I woudl like to point out. One that deals witht he vietnam war, in which soldiers had easy access to herion, it was found in a study that once the soldiers came back to the U.S only 12% of regular herion users continued on in there drug use. Which should to some extent indicate that a shitty environment not only contributes to drug use, but changing the shitty environment can also lead to such behavoirs being changed. Or how about hospital medications? In theory Hospitals should be creating drug addicts left right and center, while I am not goign to suggest the only cause is the better environment for these people, I don't think it can be ignored, that a guy pumped full of morphine in a hospital can come home, to a loving environment, and kick the dependency no problem. When in turn a prostitute addicted to herione who does not have that same environment, would have moutains of trouble and very little success even under doctor supervision at a rehab clinic. As well in a study done on rats, a while back, it was found that rats living in solitude and in simply steel cages, were much more likely to become addicted to opiates made readily available, as well as less likely to kick the habbit, then rats living together in what is deemed a more stimulating environment.

I am not trying to say, that criminals shoudl recieve not time what so ever, nor am I trying to say that the only factor in criminal behavoir is the environment. However I think enough evidence exists to sugest that rather than Just punishment, we should as Canadians, and human beings, be looking at the underlying causes of crime, and try to also treat them. While we may not be able to provide a loving family for an 18 year old bank robber, we could certainly try to spend more money to give us the ability to support such a person in a quest to build up ties to our society, that may make it less likely for such a person to commit crime. I think a quote by Rick Suave, a Canadian convicted of murder bears some resemblance to what I am saying "I left prison after 16 years with $80 in my pocket. But I also left with a high school diploma and I've almostfinished my third degree. If I didn't have that opportunity, coming out with $80 in my pocket and a grade nine education, I'd have been in big trouble trying to get back into the community. You just can't do it. That's why so many people end up going back to prison."

[caesar]

vietnam war, in which soldiers had easy access to herion, it was found in a study that once the soldiers came back to the U.S only 12% of regular herion users continued on in there drug use. Which should to some extent indicate that a shitty environment not only contributes to drug use, but changing the shitty environment can also lead to such behavoirs being changed

I would like to see that source. I doubt very much in the accuracy of such a finding. It is my understanding that a heroin addiction is very hard to shake. The environment that the vietnam veterans came back to was pretty disheartening with many of them being shunned instead of treated like returning warriors.

[Fortunata]

The old saying is: "It takes a village (community) to raise a child."

Obviously we in the community are not doing a great job.

[Slavik44]

I would like to see that source.  I doubt very much in the accuracy of such a finding.  It is my understanding that a heroin addiction is very hard to shake.  The environment that the vietnam veterans came back to was pretty disheartening with many of them being shunned instead of treated like returning warriors.

Certainly:

Here is one

Another one you can also look at, was done in 1980 it is titled "follow up of Vietnam veterans I. Relapse to drug use after Vietnam Service" I could not find an online copy or a page that explicitly stated the results..for you to see, but I suppose if you have the time, you coudl look it up and it too came to largely the same conclusion.

[CAGERATTLER]

Basically, the entire criminal justice system is a mess. Every part of it fails to meet society's needs and desires, from the level of policing, inadequate with respect to many types of crimes, the slow, creaky, and often unjust judicial system, to the prisons themselves, to the parole system and the boards that administer it. And, of course, the legal system under which they all operate is inadequate, slow, unjust, and hideously expensive.

Is there anything about this country you like?

Can you name me one thing that we do in this country that you find even slightly o.k.?

Why do you stay here if in fact your so upset about everything?

A smart man with your views would have moved out a long time ago.

Tell us all will ya why you're still here and complaining day in and day out? :angry:

[Slavik44]

...

[Argus]

Basically, the entire criminal justice system is a mess. Every part of it fails to meet society's needs and desires, from the level of policing, inadequate with respect to many types of crimes, the slow, creaky, and often unjust judicial system, to the prisons themselves, to the parole system and the boards that administer it. And, of course, the legal system under which they all operate is inadequate, slow, unjust, and hideously expensive.

Is there anything about this country you like?

Can you name me one thing that we do in this country that you find even slightly o.k.?

This is what you consider staying on topic, right?

Why do you stay here if in fact your so upset about everything?

My country. Love it or leave it. That's such a patriotic American attitude. Every neanderthal hard hat with a low slung jaw would get a sniffle to see it regurgitated by an airhead liberal.