Kyoto is Coming

[willy]

As Kyoto is implemented our standard of living may be in the balance of meeting targets or paying lip service to the accord.

"Imminent institution of greenhouse gas emissions protocol threatens to stall province's business growth, Duke Energy boss warns"

Can we have a clean environment, and still afford health care, and education funding?

Can we develop our resources and still meet Kyoto's protocol?

http://www.businessinvancouver.com/subscri...iber/news01.asp

[cgarrett]

the article does seem to have a positive outlook. duke energy does indicate successful initiatives exceeding kyoto requirements regarding the reduction of co2 pollution.

as for competitiveness, the article is too broad and does not go into any detail by industry. if we are talking about foreign markets then we have the option of insisting that kyoto participants purchase from other kyoto participants. even if the foreign market is not participating we may benefit from advertising our exports as 'kyoto compliant'. the whole idea of a 'kyoto market' i think is an interesting one.

as for local markets... we should definitely start to place import duties on imported items not meeting the kyoto accord.

[willy]

cgarrett, I get the impression that you think an economy can be centrally planned. This none Kyoto group you talk of included the US. If we don't trade with them we are in big trouble. Not to mention we have a free trade agreement that your suggestions would probably violate.

Here is a different challenge for our Liberal government.

The car manufactures are lobbing for concessions. Can the government stand up to a political group that represents a constituency they need to stay in power. i.e. southern Ontario.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/

[Guest eureka]

The target for the industry should, logically, be made higher. If they can cut by 5.2 million tonnes without the effort of making cars more efficient, then they can do more by holding to the 25% greater fuel efficiency target.

Let the industries sue in California. They can't win and, by the time they get into court, even the ostriches will have their heads removed from sand that is getting wetter by the day.

[cgarrett]

cgarrett, I get the impression that you think an economy can be centrally planned. This none Kyoto group you talk of included the US. If we don't trade with them we are in big trouble. Not to mention we have a free trade agreement that your suggestions would probably violate.

Here is a different challenge for our Liberal government.

The car manufactures are lobbing for concessions. Can the government stand up to a political group that represents a constituency they need to stay in power. i.e. southern Ontario.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/

i'm not suggesting that we _stop_ trading with the u.s. we can export to the u.s. all we like. but regarding imports, then maybe we should start to look elsewhere. whether we are talking about imports or exports, kyoto or no kyoto, its always healthier for an economy to expand past traditional trading partners. and as for the free trade agreement... the americans don't follow it so why should we. the fact that such an event would occur and even make it into u.s. news papers would increase pressure for the u.s. to sign on to kyoto.

i'm not talking about 'centrally controlled industry' here. i'm talking about a democratic society providing incentive in directions that they want industry to go and restrictions on avenues they don't want industry to go. every country in the world does it.

when you discuss the auto lobby then you are cluing in to the status quo industries who don't want anything to change. north american auto manufacturers are on the road to producing hybrid vehicles but, of course, they are way behind the japanese and have to play catch up. i could go on and on about how corrupt the whole auto industry is...

but just imaging a world of say... toyota prius vehicles, which emit 1/60th of the emissions of the average car. imagine how silent our roadways would become! imagine standing in a huge traffic jam of stopped vehicles and hearing... silence! and being able to breath the air!

automobiles account for an astounding 25% of our co2 emissions. cutting this considerably would immediately put us in the kyoto ballpark.

[willy]

So you would like to rid us of SUVs and V8's I get it.

That has nothing to do with the political practicality for the Liberal minority government to put at risk 1000s of jobs in an area they depend on to stay in power.

Pontifications are great and may be true but in politics we have consequences. If they implement Kyoto they will lose the next election.

I am a little confused with your logic on trade. We can sell all we want to the US and at the same time our government will put in place both carrots and sticks that encouraging buying from anybody but the US. I see two problems, I really like Nike shoes and my Volvo is actually owned by Ford. The US is also knowen for it protectionist senators who would love an excuse to limit the outsource industries in Canada and tax our exports.

One word my friend Pragmatic.

[cgarrett]

you have not disputed that global warming caused by mankind and its possible disastrous effects are possible. only those who do not believe it is possible could support a 'pragmatic' path.

if one does believe that global warming and its effects are _possible_, then mankind has been anything _but_ 'pragmatic' until now. now is the time for pragmatic behavior!

we as a nation may decide that we are going to reduce co2 emissions no matter the cost of thousands of jobs. why is it that the 'global warming is not happening' camp simply say that the loss of jobs is forever? that we cannot build new cutting industries not based on old technology? because this camp is funded by these existing industries.

now if i had a choice to pursue new markets rather than old established markets that are becoming increasingly difficult to maintain (ie. increased competition from outside sources), then i'd take the chance on the new avenue. from a business perspective there is no choice.

[willy]

we as a nation may decide that we are going to reduce co2 emissions no matter the cost of thousands of jobs. why is it that the 'global warming is not happening' camp simply say that the loss of jobs is forever? that we cannot build new cutting industries not based on old technology? because this camp is funded by these existing industries.

We as a nation don't decide anything. We have governments, business and bureaucrats that may or may not change based on individual decisions and policy. In the end individuals need to change and not this mass you call nation.

My words of pragmatism did not try and refute what may or may not cause weather changes but only to point out your theories have no practical way of changing our behaviour. They only show a problem. I started this thread to point out that the solution for this problem is not likely to be Kyoto because of the political implications for the government of the day.

We may need to change but that does not mean we will. Politics should be about enabling such change but it will never be done with such blunt alternatives. i.e. find another job, pay more taxes, we have no revenue for health care or education ect.

The balance is always the challenge of governing and in this instance I see the Liberals as bowing to the pressure of other interests.

[cgarrett]

point taken willy. sorry for my 'idealistic' view.

the liberals have a tough road ahead of them if they want to implement this. any government in canada would.

its unfortunate that our selected leaders have a tough time implementing platforms that they were elected on and surviving.

maybe bill o'reilly would say something like 'if you elected a politician who said he was going to do something then let him do it and _shut_up_'!