Williams Concerned over Meeting

[Newfie Canadian]

So much for provincial solidarity against the feds.

Before the meeting later this month with Martin on equalization, 3 premiers held a separate meeting of their own that has my premier concerned.

http://stjohns.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/Vie...emiers_20041013

[playfullfellow]

I think Martin is trying to divide and conquer the Premiers right now. He is making individual deals to keep the premiers off balance and keep them distrusting each other. If Martin can keep the premeirs divided, then he can bribe the weaker provinces to back him while making the stronger provinces look like greedy buttheads.

If the premiers would stay unified, then Martin would have a tougher time to ink out deals that would benefit only a few while costing the many much. This is just more typical Liberal way of doing politics.

[Newfie Canadian]

The problem there is the Atlantic Accord was signed in 1985, and it's William's contention that the feds haven't been abiding by it.

Equalization, which is what the meeting is about, may very well be the straw that breaks the premier's backs.

ink out deals that would benefit only a few while costing the many much

As I understand it, all provinces will be getting more in equaliztion, as per a promisse in the election. The 2 provinces in question, NL and NS, would not get their equlization payments clawed back because they get the revenues from their offshore oil.

[Newfie Canadian]

Looks like I was right about the solidarity problem with the provinces.

Lord, Charest and Doer want an extra $5.3 Billion for equaiztion payments.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto.../BNStory/Front/

[JWayne625]

New Brunswick obviously does not need the extra money Lord is seeking because just about a year ago he had money coming out of his ears, when he decided to create a whole new bureaucracy, with the announcement that he was creating an Office of Official Languages Commissioner. This service was already being provided for at federal expense, through the Official Languages Commission in Ottawa. In fact there was already a satellite office of this Commission in Moncton, New Brunswick directly paid for by Ottawa. We now have a separate bureaucracy in Fredericton, NB with our own little language policeman in Mr. Carrier, and the whole bureaucracy that surrounds that new Commission. Lord has run out of patronage positions to appoint all of his friends to so he is now making them up as he goes along.

If Lord can find money like that to throw around he obviously does not need part of that $5.4 billion they are seeking. He will just find somewhere else to p--- it away. Make him first be accountable for every penny he already gets and wastes, before adding to that amount. His latest hair-brained proposal is to supply all Middle School Student's in the Province with lap-top computers. School authorities have advised against it, in fact they cited the fact that they presently do not have enough textbooks for all of the students, let alone supply them with lap-tops. Many of these kids already come out of school not knowing a basic fundamental like being able to count back change without a cash register telling them how much they should give back to the customer. They need training in the basics before they need a lap-top to carry around, and be responsible for. Schools are already full of broken down desktop computers with neither the parts nor the technicians to fix them.

[Newfie Canadian]

I know it will come to a shock to some (not likely) but the province and the feds have different stories as to what's going on with this oil revenue deal.

Short story is the feds say they offered what they promised, Williams et al says they didn't.

http://www.vocm.com/cgi-win/vocm.exe/91803-Resource

[Newfie Canadian]

Nova Scotia and Newfoundland both reject their respective deals.

http://stjohns.cbc.ca/regionalnews/caches/...tion041026.html

Ottawa is offering both provinces eight-year deals that would give them 100 per cent of offshore oil and gas revenues.

But each comes with conditions.

In Newfoundland and Labrador's case, it's a ceiling that limits the revenue, so the province can't surpass the average wealth of Ontario.

Premier Williams says the revenue cap would cost Newfoundland and Labrador billions of dollars.

"What the federal government are trying to do now, because the price of oil has gone over 50 dollars U.S. a barrel; they're trying to capture those windfall profits and keep it for themselves," he says.

EDIT- Well it's gone in the crapper. He said, he said and now Williams is leaving without a deal and without attending the equalization meeting.

Edited October 26, 2004 by Newfie Canadian

[ticker]

NFLD & NS had a chance to get 100% of oil revenue by voting for Harper but the lieberals coned them again.

The leiberals never would of made the bribe promise if it wasn't for Harper pushing them in that direction in the first place.

I guess a maybe promise and the handouts is better then a sure promise. The lieberls want the keep the Maritimes as have not to insure they keep voting lieberal.

The Maritimes are suffering from the battered wife syndrome.

[Newfie Canadian]

NFLD & NS had a chance to get 100% of oil revenue by voting for Harper but the lieberals coned them again.

I'm not a fan of PM, but the Conservative party has done little to earn my confidence either.

The leiberals never would of made the bribe promise if it wasn't for Harper pushing them in that direction in the first place.

You're probably right.

I guess a maybe promise and the handouts is better then a sure promise

Not this time. The whole province, ordinary people and provincial politicians of all political stripes are with Williams on this one. I haven't heard anyone say yet that he did the wrong thing. If Martin wants to keep the 5 seats he has in NL, he'll change his mind. Some of those seats were close in the election. And in these political times, he needs all the seats he can get.

EDIT-2 Liberal MP's are already asking questions and indicating some support for Williams: Gerry Byrne and Bill Matthews.

The Maritimes are suffering from the battered wife syndrome.

We're suffering from getting the shaft.

Edited October 27, 2004 by Newfie Canadian

[ticker]

Harper appreciates the importance of provincial control of resource revenues and was prepared to put it in writing.

Alberta knows not to trust the lieberals.

If Trudeau didn’t care about 25 seats in Alberta during his NEP why should martin care about 5 seats in NFLD.

Then again Trudeau was arrogant, stubborn, knew it would be a lost cause to admit he had gone overboard with his NEP and had no chance of getting 5 lieberals elected in Alberta

[caesar]

Trudeau didn't need 5 Liberals in Alberta. The NEP was good legislation.

NFLD and NS have been being heavily subsidized for ever; greedy

[Newfie Canadian]

Yes we have and it's our own fault to a point.

We've made some bad choices and did some bad deals.

This however, is our chance to try to turn things around, some would say our best and only chance.

Let NL and NS have the total provincial revenues and let them get on their feet, and maybe the "subsidization" can end.

I don't call that being greedy.

[Guest eureka]

I think Williams is grandstanding. The deal should have been signed and Williams walking away is just a sign of the weakness of a federal minority government. Other provinces had to be appeased and giving more to Newfoundland at this time would have raised hackles elsewhere.

The opposition leader in Newfoundland would have signed the deal according to his statements in an interview today.

This all comes down to regional greed. No province should be the single beneficiary of serendipitous discoveries. No nation in the world other than Canada has such foolish, local preferences. I would agree that it is time that the East reaped some of the benefits of participation in this nation, however, benefit should be for all. Resources should not be a land lottery.

[Newfie Canadian]

No province should be the single beneficiary of serendipitous discoveries.

I'm guessing you're not from Alberta eureka

giving more to Newfoundland at this time would have raised hackles elsewhere.

Because we've gotten so much in the ability and resources to become self sufficient.

Where would it have raised hackles? NS, PEI and Alberta have already signaled agreement with Williams. I'm sure BC wouldn't mind a similar deal for future off shore sevelopment there, same for the Territories. The Prairie provinces would have control over their resources anyway as they are landlocked and land resources fall under provincial jurisdiction anyway. That leaves Ontario, Quebec and NB. What's their beef?

No province should be the single beneficiary of serendipitous discoveries.

I would submit that no province is. Through equalization payments Alberta gives up some of it's revenue, as does Ontario.

Williams walking away is just a sign of the weakness of a federal minority government.

If Paul Martin said we should get %100 of provincial revenues when the price of oil was $26-$28/barrel, it should be the same now that the price is $55/barrel.

I find this last point ironic in that only a few days before alll of this blew up, the Natural Resourcers minister said they wouldn't tamper with the price of oil because it wouldn't be fair to Alberta, who lost money or got very little when the price of oil was low.

Efford said:

Efford said Canadians have to accept that "when the times are good we get the benefits. When times are bad we pay the price."

Apparently not in his home province.

[ticker]

lets wait until BC gets around to developing offshore resources and the feds want to clawback 70% of revenues then we will see if ceaser still thinks it is a good idea to rape provinces.

[Guest eureka]

Uther provinces, including Alberta, would have howled because the federal revenues losy would have to be made up by taking more from them.

The Liberal leader was interviewed on CBC radio and said that he would have signed the deal.

[ticker]

Newfie look at the bright side at least you are dealing with a martin minority where there is a chance for Danny to negotiate a better deal instead of a trudeau majority where there would be no chance of getting a better deal.

The claw back would be more then 70% if NFLD had a busy offshore oil industry when PET was in power.

[Newfie Canadian]

The Liberal leader was interviewed on CBC radio and said that he would have signed the deal.

It was a Liberal government that gave away Churchill Falls.

The day after this happened Grimes said he was behind the government. I don't know what changed.

The minority situation certainly makes it interesting.

[Guest eureka]

If you can call Joey a Liberal government.

[Newfie Canadian]

Joey has been called many things.

Some of them in jest and some of them not so flattering.

He called himself a Liberal and the Liberal party occassionally invokes his name still.

[caesar]

Let NL and NS have the total provincial revenues and let them get on their feet, and maybe the "subsidization" can end.

I don't call that being greedy.

Is that not what the feds have offered; however these provinces want their cake and eat it too. /They don't want this new found wealth to cut their subsidy.

[caesar]

lets wait until BC gets around to developing offshore resources and the feds want to clawback 70% of revenues then we will see if ceaser still thinks it is a good idea to rape provinces.

Hopefully we will not develop our off shore oil industry until it can be done safely without injuring the environment. We don't need oil spills on our coastline.

My understanding is they do get the money from their resources; just diminishes their subsidy. Why should they still be subsidized??? I don't think BC gets much of a subsidy anyhow and we will be soon one of the ones paying out as before.

[Newfie Canadian]

I confess that if NL achieves "have" status, equalization payments should be affected. Until then, I have no problem with having the cake and eating it too.

As I understand it, the big sticking point is Ottawa capping what the province can receive.

Ottawa wants to put a cap on the amount of money the province receives from the offshore industry. Once Newfoundland and Labrador reaches the same level of wealth as Ontario, then the deal will be cancelled.

Newfoundland and Labrador says a cap alone is a dealbreaker.

In other words, God forbid we be richer than Ontario for a few years. According to Williams, that alone would cost NL billions.

[caesar]

In other words, God forbid we be richer than Ontario for a few years. According to Williams, that alone would cost NL billions

Equalization payment are only there to help with making the poorer provinces more equal. They are not supposed to be a permanent subsidy. If the province becomes as rich as Ontario then Yes, definitely, they should be paying towards other provinces equalization payments; not continuing to recieve them. Geesh.

[Newfie Canadian]

If the province becomes as rich as Ontario then Yes, definitely, they should be paying towards other provinces equalization payments

I agree with that caesar.

The point I was trying to make was this:

I concede the equaliztion issue. If NL becomes a have province, it should start paying into the equalization fund instead of receiving it. Until it becomes a have province, I have no problem with getting both.

Ottawa wants to cap the revenues we receive so that we level off at Ontario's level. In other words, if the revenues would give us enough money to surpass Ontario's fiscal level.

Why should we have to be limited? If the revenues are more (like it is now because of the price of oil) why shouldn't we get it all?