Our tax dollars at work…….combating Zombies?

[Guest Derek L]

http://youtu.be/-NXeXbCUiFE

I fully acknowledge that the above exchange is in jest between NDP member Pat Martin and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird, and in the great scheme of things, was less then several minutes long, but I’m forced to ask why the NDP, as the official Opposition is wasting a question on Zombies when there are countless other real issues effecting Canadians on a daily basis…………….Like most Canadians, one of my largest annual expenditures is taxes, and here are two Members of Parliament, both making well over 100k a year, cracking jokes well “on the clock”………..

I enjoy “The Walking Dead” and my family is financially comfortable, but to me (and perhaps I’m being petty), this seems inappropriate behaviour (like the name calling and partisan taunting that goes on daily) on the largess of taxpaying Canadians………..

And if both parties can agree on combating zombies, I fully expect bipartisan agreement on removing portions of Bill C-68 pertaining to magazine limits and classifications/prohibitions based solely on name, action and visual appearance.

[shortlived]

some people will prepare for disaster, others will prepare for zombies --- fact is preparing for zombies will cover you for most things if the virus is airborn or in the water... preparing for disaster is almost as likely.. with zombies though you will likely think of things you normally might pass up on like that shot gun gurkha and torches. Lots of people prepare for hunkering down in their home, well the fact is during a real disaster it may force you to be on the move. its fun. morale is part of the greatest need in survival situations the will to survive. I dunno that seemed orchestrated,.... ..... they must be up to something at the CDC... they usually don't do these training exercises for no reason..

Edited February 17, 2013 by shortlived

[TimG]

David Frum turned it into an satire of NDP policies on the Israel/Palestine conflict

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/16/david-frum-canadas-government-must-reach-out-to-the-undead/

[Guest American Woman]

Well, one never knows when one is going to be invaded by Zombies. The Emergency Broadcast System* broke into our ABC programming to warn us of Zombie attacks a few days ago:

*the local station was hacked, but it apparently freaked out one or two people. They would have been relieved to know our neighbors to the North wouldn't stand for such a thing. lol

[Wayward Son]

Actually, the question was not really in jest at all. Quebec, like the CDC, and other forward thinking places and organizations, had been planning on simulating a zombie apocalypse to test emergency response readiness. The idea makes sense and has been found to be more effective in finding gaps and problems then in simulating known disasters. The reality is that it the unexpected that challenges and overwhelms emergency response, so these simulations are better value for money then more routine disaster simulations.

But don't worry, our government has since put a stop to that forward thinking, and instead has forced a routine flood simulation. Less effective, less cost effective, won't better equip emergency workers to deal with the unexpected....but hey, what else is new?

[Guest Derek L]

David Frum turned it into an satire of NDP policies on the Israel/Palestine conflict

http://fullcomment.n...-to-the-undead/

We have sadly come to expect macho anti-zombie chest-thumping from certain neoconservative media outlets. But it is a fatal impediment to the nuanced understanding that alone can lead to a just and lasting peace.

Classic……

[Guest Derek L]

Well, one never knows when one is going to be invaded by Zombies. The Emergency Broadcast System* broke into our ABC programming to warn us of Zombie attacks a few days ago:

*the local station was hacked, but it apparently freaked out one or two people. They would have been relieved to know our neighbors to the North wouldn't stand for such a thing. lol

I think that "warning" is what triggered said exchange..........

[Guest Derek L]

Actually, the question was not really in jest at all. Quebec, like the CDC, and other forward thinking places and organizations, had been planning on simulating a zombie apocalypse to test emergency response readiness. The idea makes sense and has been found to be more effective in finding gaps and problems then in simulating known disasters. The reality is that it the unexpected that challenges and overwhelms emergency response, so these simulations are better value for money then more routine disaster simulations.

But don't worry, our government has since put a stop to that forward thinking, and instead has forced a routine flood simulation. Less effective, less cost effective, won't better equip emergency workers to deal with the unexpected....but hey, what else is new?

If that is the case, I truly hope the “forward thinking” official Opposition campaigns on Zombie preparedness in 2015.……

[Wayward Son]

If that is the case, I truly hope the “forward thinking” official Opposition campaigns on Zombie preparedness in 2015.……

I wrote my previous post a little quick, so it unintentionally implies that it was the Federal Government that axed this. It was the Quebec Provincial government, putting politics ahead of evidence and public safety, that stepped in and replaced the simulation.

[Guest American Woman]

I think that "warning" is what triggered said exchange..........

I don't think so; I think it's what Wayward Son said. It sounds as if the planned training was serious.

Quebec cancels zombie-themed emergency training

Edited February 17, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest Derek L]

I wrote my previous post a little quick, so it unintentionally implies that it was the Federal Government that axed this. It was the Quebec Provincial government, putting politics ahead of evidence and public safety, that stepped in and replaced the simulation.

Evidence and public safety relating to Zombies?

[Guest Derek L]

I don't think so; I think it's what Wayward Son said. It sounds as if the planned training was serious.

Quebec cancels zombie-themed emergency training

From the link:

He said he took the decision “so as not to undermine the real purpose of the activity, which is and remains a very important exercise for civil security.”

Mr. Bergeron said he needed to act to preserve the credibility of the symposium and decided to avoid controversy by changing the theme of the exercise.

Creditability of taxpayers dollars being used to prepare for zombies……………….What is telling though, and falls on politically ideological lines, is the segment of the population that feels Government would be better equipped to deal with a “Zombie Outbreak”…………..As the Zombie movies and tv shows have demonstrated, Government is ill equipped for such an eventuality………….

Now the usage of Zombies as the antagonist in such apocalyptic scenarios, for many, is a camouflaged term used to describe people……….i.e. planning to possibly one day be forced to kill your neighbour to defend your family, or the Government kill it’s own citizens, is obviously less palatable then planning to kill mythical Zombies…..

[Wayward Son]

Evidence and public safety relating to Zombies?

The evidence that simulations that prepare people for unexpected situations help prepare them to better deal with unexpected situations; helps them think outside the box; results in gaps and problems in emergency preparedness being noticed that are not generally found in routine disaster simulations. How does one prepare for SARS in 1995 or the Spanish flu in 1910? You don't, as neither situation had been imagined at the time. What you do is you simulate unexpected situations. The more unexpected the better. Simulating a routine disaster like a flood, even if you up the scale, or a disaster like Sandy after it has already happened is simply not as effective, and not as efficient a use of money or time.

Disasters happen that go far beyond the scale of what people could have imagine. Those disasters overwhelm systems. The best way to find weaknesses is to simulate extreme scenarios. It has nothing to do with zombies, and everything to do with simulating an extreme scenario and seeing what happens, where the problems are, where the communications break down, where the collaboration falters, where resources are needed, and where those resources can come from, and how quickly. Simulating a flood shows where the problems are in dealing with a flood, but little else, and most departments and emergency services have protocols set up for dealing with a flood, and the people run through them. There is value in that type of training, but it doesn't get people really thinking on their feet, or out of their comfort zone - exactly what is needed in a real unexpected disaster. Simulating an impossible scenario shows where the problems are for emergency disasters as a whole, and not just for a flood disaster.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Wayward Son

[shortlived]

If that is the case, I truly hope the “forward thinking” official Opposition campaigns on Zombie preparedness in 2015.……

what about a flood happening DURING a zombie invasion? (or as a result you know the people regulating the water system became negligent when they joined the living dead, so too do other resources get whitted as the public becomes zombified) Get the best of both worlds. They could introduce zombie frogmen... that is zombies who come in with the flood... you know cause they can walk under water.. Edited February 17, 2013 by shortlived

[Guest Derek L]

The evidence that simulations that prepare people for unexpected situations help prepare them to better deal with unexpected situations; helps them think outside the box; results in gaps and problems in emergency preparedness being noticed that are not generally found in routine disaster simulations. How does one prepare for SARS in 1995 or the Spanish flu in 1910? You don't, as neither situation had been imagined at the time. What you do is you simulate unexpected situations. The more unexpected the better. Simulating a routine disaster like a flood, even if you up the scale, or a disaster like Sandy after it has already happened is simply not as effective, and not as efficient a use of money or time.

Disasters happen that go far beyond the scale of what people could have imagine. Those disasters overwhelm systems. The best way to find weaknesses is to simulate extreme scenarios. It has nothing to do with zombies, and everything to do with simulating an extreme scenario and seeing what happens, where the problems are, where the communications break down, where the collaboration falters, where resources are needed, and where those resources can come from, and how quickly. Simulating a flood shows where the problems are in dealing with a flood, but little else, and most departments and emergency services have protocols set up for dealing with a flood, and the people run through them. There is value in that type of training, but it doesn't get people really thinking on their feet, or out of their comfort zone - exactly what is needed in a real unexpected disaster. Simulating an impossible scenario shows where the problems are for emergency disasters as a whole, and not just for a flood disaster.

Then why not also prepare for Alien invasions and the Rise of the (Planet of the) Apes?

I fail to see how planning for something that will never happen outside of science fiction (Zombies) is a good use of limited tax dollars………..I can appreciate simulating situations that though unlikely, are plausible, in training various government organizations, like Earthquakes, floods, forest fires and pandemics etc, but Zombies?

[Bonam]

Then why not also prepare for Alien invasions and the Rise of the (Planet of the) Apes?

I fail to see how planning for something that will never happen outside of science fiction (Zombies) is a good use of limited tax dollars………..I can appreciate simulating situations that though unlikely, are plausible, in training various government organizations, like Earthquakes, floods, forest fires and pandemics etc, but Zombies?

Earthquakes, floods, etc, have all happened, and responses are pretty standard, and emergency responders won't be caught off guard in a drill of such a scenario. It may be hard to think of something truly unexpected and novel while still being 100% realistic, so fictional outside the box scenarios are just as good to practice outside the box response techniques. I can definitely see that argument being legitimate. That being said, there are plenty of other potential disasters that we don't train for that are outside the box...

- large meteor impact

- massive CME that knocks out communications and irradiates the atmosphere

- rogue militant groups out in the wilderness suddenly striking out

- supervolcano eruption

- large scale biological weapon attack

and I'm sure I could think of some others...

[Wayward Son]

Then why not also prepare for Alien invasions and the Rise of the (Planet of the) Apes?

I don't care what they use. Only that it works. In the case of the zombie scenarios, they have been used many times, in many locations and the preliminary evidence is that they work very well. The director of the CDC states: "If you are generally well equipped to deal with a zombie apocalypse you will be prepared for a hurricane, pandemic, earthquake, or terrorist attack." Sounds good to me.

I fail to see how planning for something that will never happen outside of science fiction (Zombies) is a good use of limited tax dollars………..

Argument from incredulity.

I can appreciate simulating situations that though unlikely, are plausible, in training various government organizations, like Earthquakes, floods, forest fires and pandemics etc, but Zombies?

I positively detest the recent spike in zombie movies and similar crap. My knee-jerk reaction was initially against such emergency response scenarios because, at least on the surface, they appear less rational then a flood or earthquake scenario. But, in the end I have to accept that just because I want something to be true (or not) does not change whether it actually is (or not).

[Guest Derek L]

Earthquakes, floods, etc, have all happened, and responses are pretty standard, and emergency responders won't be caught off guard in a drill of such a scenario. It may be hard to think of something truly unexpected and novel while still being 100% realistic, so fictional outside the box scenarios are just as good to practice outside the box response techniques. I can definitely see that argument being legitimate. That being said, there are plenty of other potential disasters that we don't train for that are outside the box...

- large meteor impact

- massive CME that knocks out communications and irradiates the atmosphere

- rogue militant groups out in the wilderness suddenly striking out

- supervolcano eruption

- large scale biological weapon attack

and I'm sure I could think of some others...

From a Canadian perspective, an asymmetric NBC attack is something the Government, namely DND, does train for, but like all things, is limited to fiscal realities…………I would suggest any funds used to train for Zombies, is money not spent on a actual real threat like NBC warfare…….

As to a rouge militant group, like NBC warfare, our Government has trained for and executed such scenarios (Red River, FLQ & Oka etc) on a regular basis, and coupled with our experience in Afghanistan, is at it’s likely pinnacle, funds limited, on such an eventuality………..

http://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmatters/2011/05/preparedness-101-zombie-apocalypse/

This above CDC blog post, written be an Admiral and director of the CDC (Who happened to specialize in biological warfare) is itself wrought with fail on it’s suggestions that Government could handle such a scenario……….

It’s lone suggestion that the CDC, and Government itself, would take care of the populace during such an event is laughable when contrasted with the responses to Katrina, Sandy etc…..Using fiction as a benchmark, how does Government response usually play out in said Zombie flicks? Wasn’t it season 1 or 2 when the CDC was blown up in Walking Dead? And notice in said suggested zombie survival kit, there is no mention of personal protection in a Zombie attack?

I suppose the Obama administration suggesting citizens should have weapons stockpiled for such a disaster is off message.....

[Guest American Woman]

Creditability of taxpayers dollars being used to prepare for zombies……………….

I think you're taking the "Zombies" aspect of it too literally; I think the Zombies are supposed to represent the 'unknown' more than they are actual Zombies. The idea is to try to get first responders to think outside the box if/when they confront a situation that they are not familiar with.

What is telling though, and falls on politically ideological lines, is the segment of the population that feels Government would be better equipped to deal with a “Zombie Outbreak”…………..As the Zombie movies and tv shows have demonstrated, Government is ill equipped for such an eventuality………….

It wouldn't be a very interesting show if the government was depicted as knowing how to deal with them. Same with invasion from outer space shows.

Now the usage of Zombies as the antagonist in such apocalyptic scenarios, for many, is a camouflaged term used to describe people……….i.e. planning to possibly one day be forced to kill your neighbour to defend your family, or the Government kill it’s own citizens, is obviously less palatable then planning to kill mythical Zombies…..

Can't argue with you there .........

Edited February 17, 2013 by American Woman

[Sleipnir]

Well, one never knows when one is going to be invaded by Zombies. The Emergency Broadcast System* broke into our ABC programming to warn us of Zombie attacks a few days ago:

I can barely read the message caught in the video, I manage to understand the words 'Dickenson', 'emergency' and 'counties' from it...

Edited February 17, 2013 by Sleipnir

[Guest American Woman]

I can barely read the message caught in the video, I manage to understand the words 'Dickenson', 'emergency' and 'counties' from it...

The banner was just the counties in Michigan that were "affected" and said it was a message from the emergency broadcast system. It actually did come out of the emergency broadcast system, too, as it had been hacked. Apparently authorities have found the source of the hacking overseas and supposedly the problem that allowed the system to be hacked has been fixed.

This is the audio warning: "The bodies of the dead are rising from their graves and attacking the living. Follow the messages on screen that will be updated as information becomes available. Do not attempt to approach or apprehend these bodies as they are considered extremely dangerous."

Of course it was never updated with messages as it wasn't real. There was a lot of concern over the fact that someone was able to hack into the EBS, though.

[Sleipnir]

The banner was just the counties in Michigan that were "affected" and said it was a message from the emergency broadcast system. It actually did come out of the emergency broadcast system, too, as it had been hacked.

Of course it was never updated with messages as it wasn't real. There was a lot of concern over the fact that someone was able to hack into the EBS, though.

It reminds me of this episode (minus the hacking part)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama)

[Guest Derek L]

[/size]

I think you're taking the "Zombies" aspect of it too literally; I think the Zombies are supposed to represent the 'unknown' more than they are actual Zombies. The idea is to try to get first responders to think outside the box if/when they confront a situation that they are not familiar with.

Exactly, as I mentioned in the passage you quoted, in my view, for many, “Zombies” is merely a “codeword” for people………..Like I said, to most, the thought of killing people for their survival is reprehensible, but “thinking outside the box”, such scenarios, though unlikely, are not totally grounded in science fiction……

Ask yourself, would you have a problem killing a “zombie” that was attempting to eat the brains of your family? Now replace “zombie” with your next door neighbour and ask yourself said question again……..I would think the diversion between the two potential adversaries is that in one case you might currently borrow ones garden hose and the other is irrational and intent on killing you……….

Now what type of scenario would turn “Wilson” from next door into a “creature” you would be willing to kill? Or from the perspective of the State……….The citizenry might not take a positive view towards the Government conducting training simulations that include quarantining and detaining the population without due process, let alone killing them.

Said scenarios, in the spirit of transparency, should be outlined in further details devoid of the fictional term “Zombie” if they must be “played out”………..Ask yourself, why does the CDC’s recommended “basic survival guide” not include suggestions for personal protection?

Now excuse me, I’m going go watch The Walking Dead with my wife and son.

[kimmy]

I fail to see how planning for something that will never happen outside of science fiction (Zombies) is a good use of limited tax dollars………..I can appreciate simulating situations that though unlikely, are plausible, in training various government organizations, like Earthquakes, floods, forest fires and pandemics etc, but Zombies?

The plausibility of a zombie epidemic isn't the important part, it's the ability to respond quickly to new or unexpected situations. A zombie invasion might have a number of factors that could be shared by some other new epidemic-- possibly things like an unexpected transmission vector, the need to quarantine large number of uncooperative victims, the need to distribute an immunization or antidote that is not widely available. The zombie aspect of it might be fanciful, but the exercise itself would still incorporate factors that could be applicable to more realistic situations. And it would challenge the participants to adapt to unexpected situations, which is probably the most important aspect of the whole thing.

As for the exchange between Mr Martin and Mr Baird, I assure you that if the zombies come to my little corner of this great land, I am ready to stand against them. I hope all of you can say the same!

-k

[Guest Derek L]

The plausibility of a zombie epidemic isn't the important part, it's the ability to respond quickly to new or unexpected situations. A zombie invasion might have a number of factors that could be shared by some other new epidemic-- possibly things like an unexpected transmission vector, the need to quarantine large number of uncooperative victims, the need to distribute an immunization or antidote that is not widely available. The zombie aspect of it might be fanciful, but the exercise itself would still incorporate factors that could be applicable to more realistic situations. And it would challenge the participants to adapt to unexpected situations, which is probably the most important aspect of the whole thing.

I can fully appreciate that, as such, Government should be forthwith in disclosing their “plans” for dealing with an uncooperative population, a population that the State could be required to detain (and possibly kill) against their collective wills, with the dissolving of habeas corpus for all Canadians……………..

IOW, what are the prerequisites for a Canadian Federal Government (of any political stripe) to implement the son of the War Measures Act, the Emergencies Act…………..What event constitutes the Zombie Apocalypse and in turn the surrendering of our civil liberties?

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-4.5/page-1.html

National emergency

3. For the purposes of this Act, a “national emergency” is an urgent and critical situation of a temporary nature that

• 
  (a) seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it, or
  
• 
  (b) seriously threatens the ability of the Government of Canada to preserve the sovereignty, security and territorial integrity of Canada
  

and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.

By design, said law leaves quite a bit of wiggle room……………….So when does SARS or a harsh Flu season allow Government to cross the threshold?

As for the exchange between Mr Martin and Mr Baird, I assure you that if the zombies come to my little corner of this great land, I am ready to stand against them. I hope all of you can say the same!

-k

As we discussed many times, our household could teach a thing or two to Burt and Heather Gummer