We must stop Quebecs extortion of Canada

[westguy]

You live in Quebec James?

Ever consider moving somewhere you like?

It could be a happy outcome all round.

that's right - shoot the messenger if you dont like the message

[westguy]

They're part of Canada. They pay nearly 20% of all federal income tax.

that sonds arbitrary

[westguy]

What are you talking about? None of this has anything to do with anything I've said.

it reflects the frustration with the insular and selfish attitude of Quebec

[westguy]

I don't really care about the transfer, what pisses me off is that Quebec gets a much better deal then pretty much any other province and still has the nerve to whine and complain about being screwed over. The entitled bunch of children who rioted for so long because of a mild tuition hike cried about the "abuse" that english Canada heaps on them all the while they enjoy graduating with almost non-existent loans. My one year of university with books would cover 4 years in Quebec including books, yet they are screwed over. I send my kids to day care, I am getting robbed, yet in Quebec they pay 7 dollars a day.

They either shut up and live in peace, or lose the benefits they are getting and end up having to live like the rest of us.

who said that first

[westguy]

Quebec is getting subsidized by the rest of Canada in the form of Equalization payments which alleviate many of their financial problems and allow them to offer services to the people of Quebec that are not really fiscally an option in the rest of Canada.

Instead of getting equalization payments to boost them to the level of the "have" provinces which until recently included Ontario, they receive equalization payments which boosts them to well above the standard enjoyed by any other province in affordable day care and post-secondary school. As a province they have much more independence and freedom compared to any other province, but many in Quebec still see themselves as being oppressed by English Canada.

For example the financial assistance from the federal government in the form of equalization payments made it possible for Quebec to introduce $7/day day care which would have been unlikely without equalization payments and is unlikely in the rest of Canada.

Because I think that at this moment, Alberta might be getting some political assistance in order to further develop their economy, but there is the difference, Alberta is getting assistance from the federal government politically and economically to become more productive while Quebec gets financial assistance to improve their services while complaining about the big bad Anglophones.

Right now, Politically I would say Alberta.

Alberta contributes much more than Quebec

[westguy]

Regardless of the minute technicalities...if Quebec hates Canada so much, and they said numerous times as soon as they are on decent financial footing they will attempt separation again. So it means while Quebec can profit from Canada it stays, but as soon as it has to contribute it wants out. This debate is not on how Quebec exactly gets its help from Canada, but the principle is that they really don't like Canada, but are willing to take what they can while it suits them.

Like the example of the spouse that hates you, that takes your money, uses it for their benefit, you bend over backwards to accommodate, contributes nothing, and tells you as soon as she can they're divorcing you.

You want a divorce? Fine, you don't like Canada fine. Take your share of the debt, no more help, manage on your own if being in Canada is such a burden.

Canada is the greatest country in the world, safe, great opportunity, a nice balance of business incentives and social services... I hate it when people bash Canada.

BTW this has nothing to do with the language. If someone doesn't like Canada, no matter the language, get out. I don't understand why we need to bend over backwards for anyone.

what you say is exactly how a lot of Canadians feel about Quebec. I agree with all you say except one point.. Quebec will NEVER be financially independent cuz they have become too reliant on the generousity of ROC much like the eternal welfare recipient.

[Canada_james]

Thank you west guy..

who said that first

[westguy]

There's a difference between PAYMENTS received from the federal government and what the federal government spends on its operations in the province. If you end equalization payments, the federal government still has to spend money on military, first nations, seaways, inland fisheries, postal services, EI, etc. etc. etc. That stuff doesn't go away and it's not a transfer or payment to the province. Québec provides the federal government with 20% of their revenues from income taxes. When you look at the money that Québec gets back in the form of a free-and-clear payment, it's much much less than what they're sending to Ottawa. Moreover, the equalization payment that they receive is out of their control. It's based on the federal governments formula that determines a province's fiscal capacity.

Equlization payments go towards whatever the province wants to put them towards. That's the same for Québec and every other province in the country.

The question you need to be asking is how is any of this Québec's fault or responsibility? Their budget and tax rate have nothing to do with what the federal government sends to them.

Big deal. Other provinces have seats in international organizations, so scratch that. Québec has more say over immigration and has embassies in other countries for obvious reasons.

You're pretty sure? Ok. So you're making up a position for separatists in order to fight against it? Got it.

Equalization payments are out of Québec's control. Favouring Québec companies is wrong when you consider that industry in Canada is concentrated in Ontario/Québec and the proper open-tender process for procurement and contracts.

Who's whining and crying? What are they whining and crying about? How are they hard done by? Are they complaining that they don't get enough money or do they have some other complaints?

It doesn't matter what they use them for. They use them for the exact same thing every other province that gets equalization payments uses them for.

Prove that they get more than their fair share. The formula is the exact same for every province. Québec doesn't get an additional top-up over and above the equalization formula. They get the exact same thing every other province in the country gets.

Why does sovereignty mean superiority to you? Sounds like a personal issue. Does gaining independence from your parents when you become an adult mean you're superior to them?

From the highest provincial income tax rates in the nation and from the federal tax dollars Quebeckers send to Ottawa that gets re-alocated to the province to spend as it wants.

Median household income in Québec is greater than all of the Atlantic provinces and within $1000 of Manitoba and British Columbia. The only provinces with a significantly higher median income are Ontario, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. Apparently, middle of the pack is one of the lowest incomes to you. Not only are they middle of the pack, but they also have one of the largest populations in the country. So yeah.... Québec gets its revenues from its citizens.

Of course I'm not saying that. Equalization payments are in place for a reason. Look into it.

You wouldn't ask this question if you understood how and why Canada has equalization payments.

Funny how you say the federal government giving private businesses a contract is assistance to the provincial government. The federal government has operations. They need work done; they go find a contractor. This has nothing to do with Québec, transfer payments, equalization, or federal-provincial fiscal relations.

I never once said that. Equalization payments go towards whatever the province wants to spend them on. If you need me to explain to you how they work and why we have them, then you should spend some time on parliament's website and look it up.

Begging for more what? Every province puts their hand out when the federal government is spending money. If they're not, then that's the shortcoming of those provincial governments, not a fault of a Québec's.

I don't actually see Québec demanding any more than the other provinces. Didn't Ontario MPs demand a billion dollar bridge? Didn't Tony Clement build multimillion dollar gazebos? Didn't Nova Scotia and New Brunswick get billion dollar ship building contracts? Oh, but Québec got the CF-18 contract. Those selfish bastards.

Cybercoma sometimes I wonder what planet you are circling???

[waldo]

Again, you seem to ignore that most people criticize Quebec not for the equalization payments, but because they always have their hand out to beg/demand more while complaining how they are getting screwed.

Begging for more what? Every province puts their hand out when the federal government is spending money. If they're not, then that's the shortcoming of those provincial governments, not a fault of a Québec's.

cybercoma... thanks for taking the effort, the line-by-line effort, to dissect the voluminous Corporal's rambling nonsense, particularly his complete lack of understanding of equalization payments. Of course, threads like this draw out the usual separatist bent crew. I pulled out the above exchange to reinforce the most pertinent point that Quebeckers, as the people of any province do, elect the party they believe will best represent Quebec's interests... interests which reflect upon Quebeckers more (relatively) recent expressed desire to NOT separate from Canada... no matter the disinformation campaign/agenda of the Canada_james types on MLW. Of course, this plainly evident fact is always lost on the clouded thinkers who can't rationalize Quebecker's voting for the BLOC... or the PQ... while having no interest in separating from Canada.

[Canada_james]

You are delusional Waldo, the PQ brand themselves as a separatist party. It's like a vegetarian going to mcdonalds..sure they have crummy salads..but do you really go to mcdonalds to eat salad? Same as i'm sure not 100% of PQ voters want to separate, but I would safely says that at least 80% of them do. What other reason would you vote for the PQ? because of Marois nice eyes?

cybercoma... thanks for taking the effort, the line-by-line effort, to dissect the voluminous Corporal's rambling nonsense, particularly his complete lack of understanding of equalization payments. Of course, threads like this draw out the usual separatist bent crew. I pulled out the above exchange to reinforce the most pertinent point that Quebeckers, as the people of any province do, elect the party they believe will best represent Quebec's interests... interests which reflect upon Quebeckers more (relatively) recent expressed desire to NOT separate from Canada... no matter the disinformation campaign/agenda of the Canada_james types on MLW. Of course, this plainly evident fact is always lost on the clouded thinkers who can't rationalize Quebecker's voting for the BLOC... or the PQ... while having no interest in separating from Canada.

[guyser]

Alberta contributes much more than Quebec

Learn something, come on back. But please....dont fill up this board with such stupidity.

(if they do, pray tell how a Prov , small in Population contributes more then Quebec? 1:2 actually)

[Canada_james]

In Canada, the federal government makes payments to less wealthy Canadian provinces to equalize the provinces' "fiscal capacity"—their ability to generate tax revenues.

Equalization payments are based on a formula that calculates the difference between the per capita revenue yield that a particular province would obtain using average tax rates and the national average per capita revenue yield at average tax rates.

it goes back tot he policies instituted and the overall socialist "I'm special" mentality of Quebec. Quebec has about 38% of the population of Canada, and the only reason they can't generate tax revenue is because it drives out all businesses with their crazy anti business policies. Such as a pretty high corporate and personal tax rate. Why would anyone successful or with a good idea rush to Quebec to start a company? During the protests, ask any of the students who should pay for their education, most will respond, Tax companies and businesses and the rich. When you punish success, and reward failure with oodles upon oodles of social programs, well you scare off successful people and you attract other types.

So fine, if you believe Quebec plays totally fair on equalization payments, and receives 0 special attention and doesn't ask for any special treatment...they still have a major societal and fiscal problem

cybercoma... thanks for taking the effort, the line-by-line effort, to dissect the voluminous Corporal's rambling nonsense, particularly his complete lack of understanding of equalization payments. Of course, threads like this draw out the usual separatist bent crew. I pulled out the above exchange to reinforce the most pertinent point that Quebeckers, as the people of any province do, elect the party they believe will best represent Quebec's interests... interests which reflect upon Quebeckers more (relatively) recent expressed desire to NOT separate from Canada... no matter the disinformation campaign/agenda of the Canada_james types on MLW. Of course, this plainly evident fact is always lost on the clouded thinkers who can't rationalize Quebecker's voting for the BLOC... or the PQ... while having no interest in separating from Canada.

[cybercoma]

see rea;ity for a change cyber

Go look it up then come back and apologize.

[cybercoma]

all provinces pay more tuition than Quebec

What exactly do provinces pay tuition for? How exactly do you fit a province into a classroom or does the province just take classes over the internet?

[Canada_james]

Really cyber coma..are you such an anal retentive idiot that you can't understand what he was trying to say? Is that all most people do here? Find grammar, spelling errors and typos and argue over that? I think there are other chat boards for grammar police, or maybe invent one..there seem to be quite a few here......They're their grammar nazis don't cry...there they're

What exactly do provinces pay tuition for? How exactly do you fit a province into a classroom or does the province just take classes over the internet?

[cybercoma]

You are delusional Waldo

Self-conscious about the strength of your argument? If it could stand on its own, you wouldn't need to add the insults.

[cybercoma]

Quebec has about 38% of the population of Canada

Try again. Québec has less than 25% of the country's population. Ontario has over 38%.

Get your facts straight before making a fool of yourself.

[cybercoma]

Really cyber coma..are you such an anal retentive idiot that you can't understand what he was trying to say? Is that all most people do here? Find grammar, spelling errors and typos and argue over that? I think there are other chat boards for grammar police, or maybe invent one..there seem to be quite a few here......They're their grammar nazis don't cry...there they're

No. I don't know what he means. Does he mean students pay lower tuition than other provinces? What does that have to do with anything? The federal government has no say over how Québec spends the tax revenues that it generates nor the equalization payments that they receive. What does tuition have to do with anything? It says more about the other provinces' inability to look after their citizens' futures than it does about Québec's finances. By raising their own revenues and by using the same equalization payments that ALL provinces are entitled to, they're making better decisions. Cry to your provincial government that your students are paying too much if its such a problem.

[cybercoma]

You know, if you guys would make clear arguments, people wouldn't have to try to decipher what you mean by reading between the lines. The problem is if you really narrow down what you're saying and be explicit about your criticisms you don't have a leg to stand on. That's why you need to resort to insults and name calling because you've got nothing else.

[waldo]

cybercoma... thanks for taking the effort, the line-by-line effort, to dissect the voluminous Corporal's rambling nonsense, particularly his complete lack of understanding of equalization payments. Of course, threads like this draw out the usual separatist bent crew. I pulled out the above exchange to reinforce the most pertinent point that Quebeckers, as the people of any province do, elect the party they believe will best represent Quebec's interests... interests which reflect upon Quebeckers more (relatively) recent expressed desire to NOT separate from Canada... no matter the disinformation campaign/agenda of the Canada_james types on MLW. Of course, this plainly evident fact is always lost on the clouded thinkers who can't rationalize Quebecker's voting for the BLOC... or the PQ... while having no interest in separating from Canada.

You are delusional Waldo, the PQ brand themselves as a separatist party. Same as i'm sure not 100% of PQ voters want to separate, but I would safely says that at least 80% of them do.

you can, as you say, 'safely say' anything you want... actually substantiating it is a different thing, hey?

my, uhhh... "delusion, as you say", is rooted in such facts as recent/ongoing polls that repeatedly show a strong majority of Quebecker's do NOT want to separate from Canada. The most recent poll I could find in relation to the just completed election showed that 70% of Quebecker's were against separation. Notwithstanding the recent election split vote factor, notwithstanding the few seat majority the PQ actually did manage... all of these collective facts counter your personal, uhhh... opinion.

[Canada_james]

What do you have? All you do is go around and find typos in the arguments of anyone who disagrees with you. Are those your STRONG arguments? Typos? Wow, thanks for the debate lesson. There is no point in even discussing with you, regardless of the validity of the arguments and who is wrong or right. When cyber coma writes we must all bow down, but if someone disagrees, let's cut him down by checking his spelling, his font size, grammar, minute errors in facts. These arguments are about ideas, some are facts yes. And it's always good to learn. But if you're to anal to look at anything past spelling or grammar or anything else that's frivolous your comebacks are weak, annoying and childish. It's a miracle anyone even responds to you.

You know, if you guys would make clear arguments, people wouldn't have to try to decipher what you mean by reading between the lines. The problem is if you really narrow down what you're saying and be explicit about your criticisms you don't have a leg to stand on. That's why you need to resort to insults and name calling because you've got nothing else.

[cybercoma]

What do you have? All you do is go around and find typos in the arguments of anyone who disagrees with you. Are those your STRONG arguments? Typos? Wow, thanks for the debate lesson. There is no point in even discussing with you, regardless of the validity of the arguments and who is wrong or right. When cyber coma writes we must all bow down, but if someone disagrees, let's cut him down by checking his spelling, his font size, grammar, minute errors in facts. These arguments are about ideas, some are facts yes. And it's always good to learn. But if you're to anal to look at anything past spelling or grammar or anything else that's frivolous your comebacks are weak, annoying and childish. It's a miracle anyone even responds to you.

Alright, Jimbo. All I did was correct people's spelling and grammar in this thread. Don't bother reading any of the other replies I made in this thread or anything. I wouldn't want you to have to actually think for a change.

[waldo]

What do you have? All you do is...

.

.

.

wow! How reactionary of you... nothing reinforces your weak argument/position, or showcases your lack of confidence, like your over-the-top response to a single, rather innocuous post, from MLW member, 'cybercoma'. Well done - keep it up!

[Canada_james]

Really? is that only because you disagree with me? Frankly your arguments and positions are also quite weak and feeble. Even insinuating that PQ is not a separatist party shows how little you know

wow! How reactionary of you... nothing reinforces your weak argument/position, or showcases your lack of confidence, like your over-the-top response to a single, rather innocuous post, from MLW member, 'cybercoma'. Well done - keep it up!

Edited September 11, 2012 by Canada_james

[waldo]

wow! How reactionary of you... nothing reinforces your weak argument/position, or showcases your lack of confidence, like your over-the-top response to a single, rather innocuous post, from MLW member, 'cybercoma'. Well done - keep it up!

Really? is that only because you disagree with me?

no - my immediate comment simply reflected upon the single post of yours I replied to; i.e., your meltdown post. Applying it to the greater whole as a reflection upon your overall weak arguments/position, was an easy reach.

Frankly your arguments and positions are also quite weak and feeble.

ya, ya... I've noted you have difficulty when confronted with facts.

Even insinuating that PQ is not a separatist party shows how little you know

insinuated? I didn't say a thing about the PQ party itself. Most inconveniently for you, I did speak to the Quebec people... the Quebec voters - you know, the strong majority of whom don't want to separate from Canada... in spite of your personal agenda and disinformation campaign.