How would you reform our prison system?

[Argus]

I've never been a fan of warehousing people, either on welfare or in prison. It doesn't solve the original problem which put them in the warehouse, and it's damned costly. Obviously some people have to be locked away to protect the community, but most don't fall into that category.

Minor offenders:

We need to see a lot more fines, and heavier fines for those who can come up with the money.

I think much more community service work needs to be done, including routine things like picking up garbage along shores and cutting weeds along highways.

I wouldn't mind seeing Singapore type canings either. And this could also be helpful in enforcing prison rules and regulations. How do you punish someone in prison for life anyway? More time? Caning would be a better deterrent.

Sexual offenders, I think, should be chemically castrated (I'm not adverse to the real thing either in some cases). Instead of putting some serial rapist in prison for twenty years at enormous expense, what's wrong with castrating them? I bet a lot of them would even prefer it. Presto. They're no longer a danger to the public.

Violent offenders:

Clearly these individuals have a lot of energy. One of the components our prison system lacks is hard labour, as they have in the UK and some other jurisdictions. The labour doesn't have to be of any value. They could simply be set to digging ditches or breaking rocks. Every day. This would be of particular use for street gang members who don't see prison as much of a deterrent. Life in prison isn't that much different for them than life on the streets. They still hang out with their gang members, deal and do drugs, and commit various criminal acts. And, of course, they get regular visits from the whores who seem attracted to such men. Hard labour would be a first for most of them, and would prove to be much more of a deterrent.

Parole: Parole needs to be restricted to those individuals who have made a serious effort at reforming their attitudes and obtaining skills and education. For the rest. You serve your full sentence.

Prisoners all need to work a lot more in order to help offset the costs of their incarceration. Every prisoner should spend ten hours a day either learning a skill, getting an education, or working hard at something which will earn the prison system some money.

[cybercoma]

What's the problem you're trying to solve exactly?

[Canuckistani]

What's the problem you're trying to solve exactly?

The problem is the prison system breeds better criminals, addicts (ie people come out addicted who weren't going in), and isn't very good at reforming behavior. Putting people in hell holes and expecting them to come out better is insane.

We need much more emphasis on rehabilitation. Aside from the services offered for that, I think we need longer sentences. Firstly to keep people in jail long enough for a rehabilitative program to take effect, then to have them on length periods of parole, where they're given a chance to demonstrate they've reformed, or back in they go. For that we need a much better parole system that actually stays involved with the convict, monitors their behavior and offers support. If we want people to act civilized we need to treat them civilly as an example.

Castrating sex offenders - it's not that simple, many will re-offend even if castrated. Many should be declared dangerous offenders and kept locked up for long periods or life. Again, we don't need to create a hell hole to keep them locked up in.

Having prisoners do meaningful work is a really good idea. The problem is we have high unemployment, so if we have them do jobs that the public could do, that won't get public support.

Meaningful community service and restorative justice are good ideas for young offenders and minor offenders. Have them make up for what they did - they'll feel better and act better.

So our focus should be on rehabilitation, but with longer sentences (including parole) to give that rehabilitation a chance to "take."

For the life of me I can't understand how prisoners get access to drugs while there. There must be collusion by the guards - that's something we should stamp out.

But the number one way to reform our prison system is to intervene in offenders lives before they become offenders. The Globe and Mail published an interesting timeline of an 18 yr old murderer, and all the chances for intervention in his life that were missed from birth on. Price Albert, Sask, has had great success taking a multidisciplinary approach to this, involving social services and the police getting involved in the lives of children at risk.

Oh, sorry, that's number two. The number one way is to reduce poverty and provide more social supports so poor children have a better chance of success.

And number three would be - legalize and regulate drugs.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Canuckistani

[login]

In response to tbe OP, I would reform the prison system hand in hand with justice system reform and social programs.

1. Create a public safety code and treasury code, which would set aside crimes into either catagory, for capital offences, while turning over lesser crimes to the provinces that were more of a personal nature to determine.

2. Responsible drug control as opposed to criminalization.

3. Set up a graduated prison colony - work camp system, where »level 1 they are removed but have access and equal priveleges but are confined to a geographic zone for resource extraction and other functions. »Level 2 would be more confined and more remote, »level 3 would be reserved for people too dangerous for level 2 and would be in the arctic. Prisons would be reserved for people who were too frail to work or opted not to do paid work in a camp community that was based on cost of upkeep and a work input value shared capital return like a coop, and would be similar to prisons today. The camps would be structured for community members to produce their own basic goods like food.

4. There would be a new pretrial system that had individuals given the option to resolve no harm crimes.

5. an option for foreign service in the military or merchant marine would be reserved on a case by case basis in a federally organized mercenary crown corp,

6. A portion of earnings would be set aside for release as a post incarceration stability fund,

7. Criminals would pay a life criminal fee for justice administration costs which would be calculated as a portion of justice system costs divided by total number of criminals.

As well as poverty reduction and public councilling for individuals who feel pressured to crime to determine the reason and provide them with a means of obtaining their desires without resorting to victimization of the public.

The key is to make would be criminals into productive community members who enjoy life, only pathologically criminally insane people would be forced to incarceration or remote arctic living. The added benefit of come clean would provide criminal intellegence and allow police know wnerr and what to police.

The other part of course is to ask the criminals, what do you need to stop being a criminal... what are the costs of that as opposed to catering them in a prison?

We must realize that petty crime costs more than the crime itself and some serious crime could be prevemted by civil intervention before crisis point through active community dialogue.

The prisonner subscribed death penalty is another element for would be long term inmates.

Edited July 28, 2012 by login

[login]

The problem is you would need to cutout tounges and hands to, also some sexual offenders got nothing to castrate or are psychologically imbalanced so even if their female parts were cut off they could still jepordize people. Sexual offences happen with more than just male organs. The you have stuby arms to deal with.

Edited July 28, 2012 by login

[Argus]

What's the problem you're trying to solve exactly?

Prisons cost a lot of money, and do little to prevent criminals from repeating their activities when they get out.

[Argus]

The problem is the prison system breeds better criminals, addicts (ie people come out addicted who weren't going in), and isn't very good at reforming behavior. Putting people in hell holes and expecting them to come out better is insane.

Granted. Unfortunately, that's kind of what we have. If you're not already a lifelong criminal, prison is indeed a violent hellhole which is likely to make you worse.

We need much more emphasis on rehabilitation.

I don't disagree. The problem, however, is you can't force someone to rehabilitate when they're comfortable with who they are.

You also can't force people to learn a skill or to get an education, or even to kick drugs or alcohol.

For that we need a much better parole system that actually stays involved with the convict, monitors their behavior and offers support.

I think one of the problems is we give parole as a matter of course. So there are so many people on parole at any given time it's almost impossible to keep track of them. That's one of the reasons I believe parole should be for people who have proven they want to reform and show remorse.

If we want people to act civilized we need to treat them civilly as an example.

Most of the incivility in prisons is because of the prisoners.

Castrating sex offenders - it's not that simple, many will re-offend even if castrated.

Hard to rape without the necessary equipment or a sex drive.

Having prisoners do meaningful work is a really good idea. The problem is we have high unemployment, so if we have them do jobs that the public could do, that won't get public support.

There is plenty of meaningful work we don't do in Canada because the Chinese can do it cheaper. Doing it with prisoners, who will be paid little or nothing, should not involve public outcries. And since cash strapped cities and provinces have done so much to lower the quality of things like cutting weeds and grass and maintaining parks, to say nothing of roads, that should be no issue either.

But the number one way to reform our prison system is to intervene in offenders lives before they become offenders

.

We do that a lot now, but it's hard to know exactly what inspires people into a life of crime. Many, if not most young people get involved in minor trouble as teenagers, but nothing ever comes up it. There are far too many problematic parents to take over for them all, and so much depends on chance and peers.

Oh, sorry, that's number two. The number one way is to reduce poverty and provide more social supports so poor children have a better chance of success.

Poverty is not what causes crime. The poorest region in Canada is richer than most of the people in the world. What we call poverty other countries would call wealth. Nobody in our 'poor' areas is suffering from lack of food, shelter or clothing. It's THINGS they want.

And number three would be - legalize and regulate drugs.

I don't disagree with this, though with some caveats.

[Argus]

1. Create a public safety code and treasury code, which would set aside crimes into either catagory, for capital offences, while turning over lesser crimes to the provinces that were more of a personal nature to determine.

2. Responsible drug control as opposed to criminalization.

3. Set up a graduated prison colony - work camp system, where »level 1 they are removed but have access and equal priveleges but are confined to a geographic zone for resource extraction and other functions. »Level 2 would be more confined and more remote, »level 3 would be reserved for people too dangerous for level 2 and would be in the arctic. Prisons would be reserved for people who were too frail to work or opted not to do paid work in a camp community that was based on cost of upkeep and a work input value shared capital return like a coop, and would be similar to prisons today. The camps would be structured for community members to produce their own basic goods like food.

4. There would be a new pretrial system that had individuals given the option to resolve no harm crimes.

5. an option for foreign service in the military or merchant marine would be reserved on a case by case basis in a federally organized mercenary crown corp,

I think all of this can be worked with. I've kind of suggested similar things in the past. For example, a co-ed working complex where prisoners could learn to work every day, and then have access to what would be a virtual small town within the walls with restaurants, bars, etc. I don't think the judges would let us send prisoners to the arctic though.

[cybercoma]

The problem is the prison system breeds better criminals, addicts (ie people come out addicted who weren't going in), and isn't very good at reforming behavior.

Your evidence for this?

I think we need longer sentences.

Your evidence that we need this?

Castrating sex offenders

We used to do this for mental defectives from the 1920s-70s. It was called the Eugenics Board of Alberta. I really hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but you can't ignore the fact that they took this kind of thinking to the N^th degree.

Having prisoners do meaningful work is a really good idea.

Evidence this is effective or useful? When our nation faces an unemployment crisis amongst youth (> 15% unemployment rate), which will only grow with seniors working longer, I'm not sure how this will be beneficial to society. Particularly, I don't see how it will benefit those that are most caught up in violence: youth.

Meaningful community service and restorative justice are good ideas for young offenders and minor offenders. Have them make up for what they did - they'll feel better and act better.

Yes. And that's the direction the judiciary has been moving.

But the number one way to reform our prison system is to intervene in offenders lives before they become offenders. The Globe and Mail published an interesting timeline of an 18 yr old murderer, and all the chances for intervention in his life that were missed from birth on. Price Albert, Sask, has had great success taking a multidisciplinary approach to this, involving social services and the police getting involved in the lives of children at risk.

Oh, sorry, that's number two. The number one way is to reduce poverty and provide more social supports so poor children have a better chance of success.

And number three would be - legalize and regulate drugs.

I agree with all of this and most of the things you say, but some of the stuff I pointed out above is not supported by any of the evidence that I've seen.

[cybercoma]

Prisons cost a lot of moneyp

Yes they do.

[Prisons] do little to prevent criminals from repeating their activities when they get out.

Do you have evidence that supports this?

[eyeball]

How would you reform our prison system?

Well, for starters I'd keep our prison system as far as possible out of the hands of anyone who's thinking is even remotely close to that of the OP in this thread.

It's a savage brutal viewpoint that is probably more in line with a place like Syria or North Korea.

[Argus]

Yes they do.

Do you have evidence that supports this?

A high recidivism rate is more than ample evidence.

[Argus]

Well, for starters I'd keep our prison system as far as possible out of the hands of anyone who's thinking is even remotely close to that of the OP in this thread.

It's a savage brutal viewpoint that is probably more in line with a place like Syria or North Korea.

Given your perspective is one which would basically not punish anyone for anything short of murder, I suppose that view is understandable.

Stupid, of course, but then, it's what you do best.

[login]

There is plenty of meaningful work we don't do in Canada because the Chinese can do it cheaper. Doing it with prisoners, who will be paid little or nothing, should not involve public outcries. And since cash strapped cities and provinces have done so much to lower the quality of things like cutting weeds and grass and maintaining parks, to say nothing of roads, that should be no issue either.

The government could realize cost savings by having their materials produced by idle labour. Unemploymemt is caused by a lack of demand not a lack of money. It only becomes an issue when supply is lacking. Every point of efficiency whether governmental or private sector realizes a stronger economy. A privately supplied public is a public without liberty.

Poverty is not what causes crime. The poorest region in Canada is richer than most of the people in the world. What we call poverty other countries would call wealth. Nobody in our 'poor' areas is suffering from lack of food, shelter or clothing. It's THINGS they want.

It is a factor, there are material reasons, there are emotional reasons and there are circumstantial reasons. Crimes are only crimes because a judge says they are. One must remove all the factors to remove crime. Catching a crime ain't stopping a crime, so what good is that other than with serial crimes.

Edited July 28, 2012 by login

[cybercoma]

A high recidivism rate is more than ample evidence.

Canada has a high recidivism rate? As compared to what?

[Guest Manny]

Oh I see. Bring back the Gulag. Bring back the rack, and the iron maiden. This is akin to the way they do it in Saudi, public executions at soccer matches. You MUST stay and observe, because the deterrent is to see your neighbours getting their heads cut off with a dull sword. Or have their balls removed. Or caned until they're covered in welts. Watch the show little Johnny, you're not allowed to look away. Just pray that they get the right guy, and didn't have anyone falsely accused.

Then there's another problem, if violence is endemic acceptable way to deal with someone who has done something wrong, as demonstrated by the state leaders then it should be obvious that violence makes things right again. Pain, torture makes things right again. So if my wife or children do something that irritates me, I lash out with my closed fist. That is how the society of Argus will be built.

[Argus]

Canada has a high recidivism rate? As compared to what?

As compared to a low recidivism rate.

Recividism in Canada

Edited July 28, 2012 by Argus

[eyeball]

Given your perspective is one which would basically not punish anyone for anything short of murder...

That's not true at all, I'd have few qualms punishing someone like George W Bush in the manner you're prescribing.

[Canuckistani]

Canuckistani, on 28 July 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

The problem is the prison system breeds better criminals, addicts (ie people come out addicted who weren't going in), and isn't very good at reforming behavior.

Your evidence for this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5039020/One-in-six-inmates-become-drug-addicts-in-prison.html That's for Britain, doubt it's any different here.

Canuckistani, on 28 July 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

I think we need longer sentences.

Your evidence that we need this?

How about reading the entirety of my argument instead of just picking out a small snippet?

Canuckistani, on 28 July 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Castrating sex offenders

We used to do this for mental defectives from the 1920s-70s. It was called the Eugenics Board of Alberta. I really hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but you can't ignore the fact that they took this kind of thinking to the N^th degree.

How about reading the entirety of my argument instead of just picking out a small snippet? You make it sound as if I'm advocating for castrating sex offenders, when I'm arguing against it.

Canuckistani, on 28 July 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Having prisoners do meaningful work is a really good idea.

Evidence this is effective or useful? When our nation faces an unemployment crisis amongst youth (> 15% unemployment rate), which will only grow with seniors working longer, I'm not sure how this will be beneficial to society. Particularly, I don't see how it will benefit those that are most caught up in violence: youth.

Really, it's not obvious to you that doing meaningful work is more rehabilitative than sitting around festering?

[cybercoma]

As compared to a low recidivism rate.

Recividism in Canada

Your supporting evidence is a Vancouver Sun "special investigation" done over 8 years ago with quotes from Vic Toews and the Conservative Party? Moreover, the article simply throws around numbers without actually comparing them to anything else. How are we to know if that rate is high?

Want to try again?

Edited July 29, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Have you bothered looking at literature reviews that have been done in the past on recidivism?

Effects of punishment on recidivism rates

Recidivism of federal offenders

Sex offender recidivism

And what do you suppose is going to be the effect of the Conservatives eliminating rehabilitation programs for offenders, especially youth offenders?

If you believe there's a problem now and there isn't, what's it going to be like with these programs gone?

[cybercoma]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5039020/One-in-six-inmates-become-drug-addicts-in-prison.html That's for Britain, doubt it's any different here.

Couple things.

You should use the Canadian numbers.

And

Showing that people get addicted to drugs in prison doesn't support your claim that prisons breed better criminals. It would support the argument that it turns people into drug addicts.

You make it sound as if I'm advocating for castrating sex offenders, when I'm arguing against it.

Sorry. I misunderstood your argument then.

Really, it's not obvious to you that doing meaningful work is more rehabilitative than sitting around festering?

It may be, it might not be. I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence to support the suggestion. I'm also not sure that taking jobs away from people outside the prison system is going to be beneficial to society as a whole. In fact, it may drive up youth unemployment even further, which may then drive up crime for that group. Edited July 29, 2012 by cybercoma

[Tilter]

First of all, the re-instatement of the death penalty would cause less prisoners as the miscreants might not want to go for that for murder.

Secondly, prevent the drugs from getting into prisons. (really easy if the institutions really wanted that to happen)

Put the prisons in isolated spots in our tundra areas. Visitors can't get there? tough shit. If you want to see your family, don't commit the crime.

Do away with the petty shit like pot possession.

Get judges who are willing to use the laws we have rather than judges that try to rewrite the laws that are now in place. Parliament writes the laws & the courts impose them.

Kill off people like Bernardo & Homolka & also (if convicted,) Magnotta and incidentally, ALL people in prison who have been convicted of First degree murder. This also would lessen the number of the incarcerated.

Put them all to work at something that could earn their keep while in prison.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Tilter

[Tilter]

The problem is the prison system breeds better criminals, addicts (ie people come out addicted who weren't going in), and isn't very good at reforming behavior. Putting people in hell holes and expecting them to come out better is insane.

We need much more emphasis on rehabilitation. Aside from the services offered for that, I think we need longer sentences. Firstly to keep people in jail long enough for a rehabilitative program to take effect, then to have them on length periods of parole, where they're given a chance to demonstrate they've reformed, or back in they go. For that we need a much better parole system that actually stays involved with the convict, monitors their behavior and offers support. If we want people to act civilized we need to treat them civilly as an example.

Castrating sex offenders - it's not that simple, many will re-offend even if castrated. Many should be declared dangerous offenders and kept locked up for long periods or life. Again, we don't need to create a hell hole to keep them locked up in.

Having prisoners do meaningful work is a really good idea. The problem is we have high unemployment, so if we have them do jobs that the public could do, that won't get public support.

Meaningful community service and restorative justice are good ideas for young offenders and minor offenders. Have them make up for what they did - they'll feel better and act better.

So our focus should be on rehabilitation, but with longer sentences (including parole) to give that rehabilitation a chance to "take."

For the life of me I can't understand how prisoners get access to drugs while there. There must be collusion by the guards - that's something we should stamp out.

But the number one way to reform our prison system is to intervene in offenders lives before they become offenders. The Globe and Mail published an interesting timeline of an 18 yr old murderer, and all the chances for intervention in his life that were missed from birth on. Price Albert, Sask, has had great success taking a multidisciplinary approach to this, involving social services and the police getting involved in the lives of children at risk.

Oh, sorry, that's number two. The number one way is to reduce poverty and provide more social supports so poor children have a better chance of success.

And number three would be - legalize and regulate drugs.

We need much more emphasis on rehabilitation. Aside from the services offered for that, I think we need longer sentences. Firstly to keep people in jail long enough for a rehabilitative program to take effect, then to have them on length periods of parole, where they're given a chance to demonstrate they've reformed, or back in they go

Has this approach worked ANYWHERE in the world?

[cybercoma]

First of all, the re-instatement of the death penalty would cause less prisoners as the miscreants might not want to go for that for murder.

Evidence to support the idea that the death penalty works as a deterrent?

Put the prisons in isolated spots in our tundra areas. Visitors can't get there? tough shit.

Tough shit? You want to punish the children and families of people that are convicted of crimes?

If you want to see your family, don't commit the crime.

Maybe the families want to see them. Did you ever think of that?

Get judges who are willing to use the laws we have rather than judges that try to rewrite the laws that are now in place.

Judges don't write laws.

Parliament writes the laws & the courts impose them.

The courts don't impose them. The police enforce them and the courts interpret them. The funny thing about language when it comes to laws is that it's not always clear what is meant by particular laws.

For example, the law states that there are to be "no motorized vehicles in the park after dark." Obviously, you shouldn't drive your car through the park after dark. That's clear enough. What about a motorized wheelchair? Does that mean a person in a motorized wheelchair can't go through the park? By the word of the law, they would be charged because they were operating a motorized vehicle in the park after dark. This is where the courts come in and judicial discretion plays a role. The judges need to interpret the law and try to enforce the meaning, spirit, and purpose of the law, rather than slavishly adhering to the letter of the law.

Kill off people like Bernardo & Homolka & also (if convicted,) Magnotta and incidentally, ALL people in prison who have been convicted of First degree murder. This also would lessen the number of the incarcerated.

You don't even want the government running social programs because you claim the government is wasteful and too disorganized to do it right. Yet you want to give them the power to take away a person's life? There have been a number of convicted murderers in this country that were later found to be innocent. Moreover, it's unethical and uncivilized for a society to give its state the power to execute its own citizens. We would join the ranks of Somalia, Sudan, China, Iran, and the United States. No thanks.

Put them all to work at something that could earn their keep while in prison

You don't want immigrants in this country because they take jobs, but you would turn around and give them to prisoners, who would work for free.

So in this one post alone you support slavery, torture, and murder, as long as it's carried out by the state on people you apparently deem less than human. People get caught up in prison for any number of different reasons. You could get into a drunken fight at a party and end up in prison for assault. Someone could attack your wife or girlfriend and you could accidentally kill them defending her and you would be in prison on murder 2 or manslaughter. Yet these people aren't the evil scumbags you want to make them out to be.

You're forgetting that prisoners are people too and treating them the way that you've outlined in your reply is a really great way to ensure that they become as violent and antisocial as possible once they leave the prison system.

But that's probably cool with you, as long as you maintain the false perception that you're a big tough guy who's hard on crime. Forget the actual results of what these kinds of policies have on criminality. We're living in a world where everyone's opinions are equal and they get to pick their own facts.