Dunderdale lays into MacKay

[waldo]

The commitment has been made several times since 2006 for your information. As well Goose Bay is considered a very strategic location for the military, specifically with regards to Arctic sovereignty.

Bullshit……..Of what strategic value is a glut of remote bases, of little value militarily, that cost tremendous amounts of scarce money to operate when the pointy end of the military doesn’t have enough money to replace equipment and train it’s members?

from 2... 2 days ago! MacKay says he backs 5 Wing Goose Bay - calls BS on MLW member 'Derek L's' BS claim

Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay:

“I wish to reaffirm that the defence team is working to fulfill our commitment for an operational mandate for Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay so that the base, and the community, prospers for years to come,”

What claim was that?

May 17, 2012 - Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay doubles down... from the DND web site:

I wish to reaffirm that the defence team is working to fulfill our commitment for an operational mandate for Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay so that the Base, and the community, prospers for years to come. Minister Penashue and I look forward to announcing this operational mandate as soon as work is complete.

Our government is committed to ensuring a clear operational mandate for 5 Wing Goose Bay that takes advantage of its unique location and enhances the protection of Canadian sovereignty, including in the Arctic. CFB Goose Bay has numerous advantages for the Canadian Forces and our allies, including its unique location and the enthusiasm of Happy Valley-Goose Bay residents for a larger military role in their community. Our government has made major investments to ensure that our allies can take advantage of the training potential at CFB Goose Bay. It was our government that invested $20 million in resurfacing the runway at Goose Bay to ensure that the base remains a world-class facility. It was our government investing $300 million to decontaminate sites around the base that will generate important economic opportunities for the community. In recent years, Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay has been a hub for low-level allied flight training and I am pleased to note our German allies have returned to Goose Bay for this training.

[Guest Derek L]

[/indent]

May 17, 2012 - Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay doubles down... from the DND web site:

My claim again?

I’m glad you take the MND’s words as gospel, it’s a clear sign of maturity…….Now how about his words regarding the F-35?

[waldo]

My claim again?

I’m glad you take the MND’s words as gospel

what? You can't read your own words/claim... you can continue to play your silly-buggar self for all it's worth. The, as you say, "MND's words" are MacKay's words... I certainly have no problem using them to my own advantage/leverage at any time. In this case, MacKay doesn't buy into your puffed up "austerity moves", hey?

[Guest Derek L]

what? You can't read your own words/claim... you can continue to play your silly-buggar self for all it's worth. The, as you say, "MND's words" are MacKay's words... I certainly have no problem using them to my own advantage/leverage at any time. In this case, MacKay doesn't buy into your puffed up "austerity moves", hey?

And my previous claim? Quick Waldo, I'm time short and have to make my way down to Canadian Tire....

[waldo]

I'll continue playing silly buggar and ignore the multiple quotes that showcase my "claim"... the one that starts with me using the expletive "bullshit"

[Guest Derek L]

Not only won’t they get a battalion, from RUMINT, they’ll be lucky to keep CFB Goose Bay

A qualified opinion, that aligns with the (Liberal) chair of our Senate defence committee’s view of the original proposal six years ago…….It’s hearting to hear that you have so much faith in the words of the Government and MND Waldo.

[waldo]

Not only won’t they get a battalion, from RUMINT, they’ll be lucky to keep CFB Goose Bay……

A qualified opinion, that aligns with the (Liberal) chair of our Senate defence committee’s view of the original proposal six years ago…….It’s hearting to hear that you have so much faith in the words of the Government and MND Waldo.

why how pompous of you to declare your own opinion qualified! Like I said, it's gold showcasing Harper Conservative gyrations concerning promises made/broken... it's gravy when they butt up against your own pontificating.

[Guest Derek L]

why how pompous of you to declare your own opinion qualified! Like I said, it's gold showcasing Harper Conservative gyrations concerning promises made/broken... it's gravy when they butt up against your own pontificating.

Your point?

[waldo]

Your point?

gold and gravy aligned with your pomposity

[Guest Derek L]

gold and gravy aligned with your pomposity

Hey then, you're welcome!

[waldo]

Hey then, you're welcome!

your point?

[Guest Derek L]

your point?

DND should divest itself of infrastructure and real estate

[waldo]

DND should divest itself of infrastructure and real estate

oh but you were more specific... much more specific. As I said, the gravy is showcasing Harper Conservatives are gyrating over accusations of (Goose Bay) broken promises... suggesting your very specific/precise words used against Goose Bay have no merit.

[Guest Derek L]

oh but you were more specific... much more specific. As I said, the gravy is showcasing Harper Conservatives are gyrating over accusations of (Goose Bay) broken promises... suggesting your very specific/precise words used against Goose Bay have no merit.

So you have faith in the current Government’s approach to Arctic sovereignty? Your stance is noted.

[waldo]

So you have faith in the current Government’s approach to Arctic sovereignty? Your stance is noted.

your weak response is noted... by the by, about those Harper Conservative gyrations on broken promises for CFB Goose Bay - MacKay's "updated support pledge" is short on details/specifics. Since you're so tapped in, will CFB Goose Bay be getting that previously pledged, "new long-range unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) squadron". You know... in the name of Harper Conservatives standing strong on Canada's "Arctic Sovereignty"? Or was that just another false Harper Conservative 2011 vote grabber, hey?

no satellites... no UAV (apparently)... no additional budget beyond 2010's as yet unrealized funding promise... severe DND budget cuts - Arctic Sovereignty??? Will there be more/anything... other than the yearly Harper photo-ops?

Harper Conservative's Arctic sovereignty... uhhh... not so much!

apparently... Canada's Arctic Sovereignty isn't much of a Harper Conservative priority anymore, hey Derek L?

[Guest Derek L]

your weak response is noted... by the by, about those Harper Conservative gyrations on broken promises for CFB Goose Bay - MacKay's "updated support pledge" is short on details/specifics. Since you're so tapped in, will CFB Goose Bay be getting that previously pledged, "new long-range unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) squadron". You know... in the name of Harper Conservatives standing strong on Canada's "Arctic Sovereignty"? Or was that just another false Harper Conservative 2011 vote grabber, hey?

no satellites... no UAV (apparently)... no additional budget beyond 2010's as yet unrealized funding promise... severe DND budget cuts - Arctic Sovereignty??? Will there be more/anything... other than the yearly Harper photo-ops?

Harper Conservative's Arctic sovereignty... uhhh... not so much!

apparently... Canada's Arctic Sovereignty isn't much of a Harper Conservative priority anymore, hey Derek L?

As to the UCAVs, that program will eventually happen, as for basing I doubt still Goose Bay…….If they purchase a tactical UCAV (Like Predator/Reaper) they’ll likely be based with the operators of Canadian UAVs, the 4th AD regiment in New Brunswick………I doubt they’ll purchase a strategic one (Global Hawk) due to cost and the associated “teething problems” that saw the USAF put their’s (Block II’s) in “storage” in favour of operating the ancient U-2 manned aircraft…If they did, the likely bases would be Comox and Greenwood…….As for operating UAV/UCAV in the Arctic and basing them (or close to) there, that whole curvature of the Earth thing detracts from that option………….

As for the Runway……Why? Since the Germans, British, Dutch and Italians left, added to the fact that low level strike has become passé since the first Gulf War, there’s no need.

As for the entire “Arctic Sovereignty strategy”, as I’ve said in various other threads since I’ve started posting here, it like Blue Beret “peacekeeping”, is a political apparition, that depending on your age, we went through the same such approach twenty five years ago (When there was a credible threat) and the end product will likely be the same…….

[Newfoundlander]

Dunderdale laid into the feds today, once again due to MacKay.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/05/22/nl-dunderdale-feds-burton-winters-522.html

[Guest Derek L]

Dunderdale laid into the feds today, once again due to MacKay.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/05/22/nl-dunderdale-feds-burton-winters-522.html

Has the Premier explained yet why the Newfoundland rescue coordination center didn’t contact DND until a day after the boy was reported missing? Or why didn’t the Provincial Government of Newfoundland contact the Civil Air Search and Rescue association,? They have members in Goose Bay, along with RCAF Griffons……..

[Newfoundlander]

Has the Premier explained yet why the Newfoundland rescue coordination center didn’t contact DND until a day after the boy was reported missing? Or why didn’t the Provincial Government of Newfoundland contact the Civil Air Search and Rescue association,? They have members in Goose Bay, along with RCAF Griffons……..

Numerous news articles on it. From what I understand the provincial helicopters were sent out when they heard but they were not contacted till the following day.

[Guest Derek L]

Numerous news articles on it. From what I understand the provincial helicopters were sent out when they heard but they were not contacted till the following day.

And if one looks at the weather in Newfoundland in winter, which I’m sure you know all too well about, if it’s not safe to fly (especially at low levels required for a search) and DND wasn’t notified for a day, is it really DND’s and/or the MND’s fault? In all likelihood, since the young man went through the ice, he likely succumbed to exposure in under an hour even if he got out of the water. It’s a sad storey indeed, and to an extent being a farther, I can understand the parents (mis) directed rage, but in the case of the Premier, it’s political theatre and quite disgusting.

[Newfoundlander]

And if one looks at the weather in Newfoundland in winter, which I’m sure you know all too well about, if it’s not safe to fly (especially at low levels required for a search) and DND wasn’t notified for a day, is it really DND’s and/or the MND’s fault? In all likelihood, since the young man went through the ice, he likely succumbed to exposure in under an hour even if he got out of the water. It’s a sad storey indeed, and to an extent being a farther, I can understand the parents (mis) directed rage, but in the case of the Premier, it’s political theatre and quite disgusting.

Weather wasn't an issue, that was the excuse the government had used but in the Fifth Estate documentary on the story they showed that weather reports from the time contradicted what DND was saying.

The boy did not go through the ice, his snow mobile got stuck in the ice and he then walk for 19km. He may have still not survived by the time DND was contacted but it still should not take two days to get a helicopter.

The reason the premier is making a fuss is because she has written to MacKay and his responses(which will soon be released publicly) we're not satisfactory and the government is continuing to make cuts to search and rescue in the province.

[Guest Derek L]

Weather wasn't an issue, that was the excuse the government had used but in the Fifth Estate documentary on the story they showed that weather reports from the time contradicted what DND was saying.

The boy did not go through the ice, his snow mobile got stuck in the ice and he then walk for 19km. He may have still not survived by the time DND was contacted but it still should not take two days to get a helicopter.

The reason the premier is making a fuss is because she has written to MacKay and his responses(which will soon be released publicly) we're not satisfactory and the government is continuing to make cuts to search and rescue in the province.

It says in the CBC Link you posted that the boy’s body was retrieved from the sea ice in February…….now I won’t speculate if the young man fell into the water and got himself out or not, but it quite obviously leads one to assume that he succumbed to exposure………As I’ve said, the human body will only last a short while in such temperatures and even if he’d got out of the water again soaking wet (or never fell in), the elements would take their toll…It’s quite possible that he passed even before he was reported missing by his parents, let alone the day after when the Province notified DND.

As for the Premier it seems the optics have been shifting on her part:

From a few weeks ago

The Newfoundland and Labrador premier told reporters that the congenial meeting that had been scheduled for Friday was something she had agreed to, and had recognized that the family also wanted to discuss their calls for an inquiry into the death of the Makkovik teen, whose frozen body was found on ice outside the community in early February.

But Dunderdale said the meeting went off the rails when staff told her that the family wanted to bring along former search and rescue co-ordinator Clarence Peddle, who has been outspoken about how officials responded to the search for Winters

While much of the concern of the family and supporters has involved the military's role in the response, new questions have been raised lately about both how the RCMP command handled calls in the earliest hours, and the role of provincial emergency officials.

As for the “order of operation” in activating a federal government response, as a former member of the Air Force (Though not primary SAR), I can attest to the required procedures being quite clear. Local authorities contact the Provincial rescue coordination center, they intern contact the Provincial Solicitor General’s office who then contacts Department of National Defence……..If DND isn’t contacted for 24 hrs, who’s fault is that?

In this case it looks like either the local RCMP or the Province. As for cuts to SAR, what cuts would those be?

[Newfoundlander]

He walked 19 km away from his snowmobile, all that time walking on sea ice I believe. From whatI I understand at that time of the year in Labrador you can't really tell if you're on sea ice or on the ground. He was obviously able to last long enough to walk 19 km away, which would have taken hours and hours.

As for the story you posted on the premier not meeting with the family it's because the family canceled the meeting. They originally wanted to meet with the premier, she agreed and then the family wanted to bring a search and rescue co-ordinator into the meeting. The premier said that was fine as long as her minister responsible for search and rescue was in attendance now that they'd have a so called expert with them. The family didn't wanted the minister there and canceled the meeting. The premier has since said she'd meet with the family one on one for a while and then bring the minister and the rescue co-ordinator into the meeting.

[Smallc]

He was obviously able to last long enough to walk 19 km away, which would have taken hours and hours.

3 - 5 maybe. If the snow was really deep, and he didn't have a path (he did - the snowmobile trail) it could have been more.

[Guest Derek L]

He walked 19 km away from his snowmobile, all that time walking on sea ice I believe. From whatI I understand at that time of the year in Labrador you can't really tell if you're on sea ice or on the ground. He was obviously able to last long enough to walk 19 km away, which would have taken hours and hours.

As for the story you posted on the premier not meeting with the family it's because the family canceled the meeting. They originally wanted to meet with the premier, she agreed and then the family wanted to bring a search and rescue co-ordinator into the meeting. The premier said that was fine as long as her minister responsible for search and rescue was in attendance now that they'd have a so called expert with them. The family didn't wanted the minister there and canceled the meeting. The premier has since said she'd meet with the family one on one for a while and then bring the minister and the rescue co-ordinator into the meeting.

So we’re talking a mater of hours that the boy was walking on sea ice, overnight in winter…….my point still stands, he likely went to sleep and never woke-up………Again, I fail to see how DND and/or the MND are to blame if they were not contacted until the next day………