Corporate tax cuts/breaks don't create jobs!

[TimG]

Oh I know full well how business works.

No you don't have a clue. You get your knickers twisted in a knot because you think some CEOs are overpaid but there are some basic rules of economics which governs how businesses operate and no government can change thoses. Once of those rules is companies will reduce costs in what ever way they can. If government forces them to pay more for labour they will use less labour or outsource to other countries. If they can't do that they will raise their prices which screws the people who have to purchase whatever the business provides.

There is no magic unicorn fairy that will grant everyone a good paying full time job. You need to stop smoking whatever you are smoking if you believe otherwise.

[WWWTT]

You are completely clueless then. You have no idea how business works.

Hey TimG are you a CEO,VP or a chairman of a multi million dollar corp.?Do you own a multi million dollar corporation seeking some sort of subsidy,grant or tax break?

Now I know that you are none of the above,but the reason why I ask is simple.Why do you feel it is neccessary to stick your freekin neck out for someone who gives a complete rats ass about your well being?Why?

Even if you work for such a corp. I guarantee you that someone at some level above you is frantically desperately trying to keep production at the same level minus you on the payroll or your benefits and pension too!

Carefull what you wish for buddy!

WWWTT

[Bonam]

Now I know that you are none of the above,but the reason why I ask is simple.Why do you feel it is neccessary to stick your freekin neck out for someone who gives a complete rats ass about your well being?

He's not sticking his neck out for anything. He's simply confronting blatantly ignorant statements.

It's patently obvious Rick has no idea wtf he is talking about. Businesses need to make money to hire anyone. "Forcing" them to hire people, as Rick suggests, would only lead to more companies going bankrupt and more layoffs.

[TimG]

Even if you work for such a corp. I guarantee you that someone at some level above you is frantically desperately trying to keep production at the same level minus you on the payroll or your benefits and pension too!

Yep. That is exactly the world we live in. The best way to protect jobs is to ensure that companies can make a healthy profit. There is nothing to be gained by heaping more and more costly regulations on companies. Edited September 5, 2011 by TimG

[WWWTT]

He's not sticking his neck out for anything. He's simply confronting blatantly ignorant statements.

It's patently obvious Rick has no idea wtf he is talking about. Businesses need to make money to hire anyone. "Forcing" them to hire people, as Rick suggests, would only lead to more companies going bankrupt and more layoffs.

Ya right.

It sounds like that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about.

The statements that you are making are to vague and generic to have any merit by my standards.

Not all corporations are evil,however there are some who could care less what happens to Canada 5 to 10yrs from now regardless of how much profit they rape out of the economy!

Do you really believe that all these CEOs VP',etc,etc earning millions in salary and benefits are worth what they are getting paid?

Where were you during the American congresional hearings about the big three auto makers a few years back?

Everyone of those CEO leaches got ther freekin butts reemed for taking their private jets to Washington to ask for more tax payer dollars or they would "lay people off"!

Who do you think paid for those private jets?

Again I ask why?Why?Why?

Why are you guys stickin your necks out for someone who will roll your wages back 10 years so that he/she may get a bigger bonus?

WWWTT

[jacee]

Here in Hamilton we watched for years as the Steel company offered various profit sharing schemes, to try to tie their labour costs to their profitability.

The union flat out rejected the very idea every single time!

If the workers controlled profitability it would make sense, but when the bosses screw up the workers lose: Thus, profit sharing does not make sense.

Now we have the local union out on strike for nearly a year, mostly over the pension scheme for new hires.

FALSE: Not on strike: LOCKED OUT because US Steel refused to bargain in good faith, insisting on concessions "preconditions" before even coming to the table.

FALSE: Mostly over US Steel insisting on a precondition of ending cost-of-living increases for current pensioners.

Amazingly, their negotiating committee won't even allow their membership to vote, for fear they might disagree with their leadership's stance!

FALSE. They voted on whether they would hold a vote on the 'contract' and the majority said no.

The union leadership is demanding a deal that no other steel company anywhere in North America gives! The company really has no choice. They have over 9,000 pensioners and only 985 or so workers! That's a 10 to 1 ratio of those making the company money and those draining it! How can ANY company stay profitable in such a situation?

Gee ... what were the US Steel bosses thinking when they knew all this and still signed a contract with gov? Do you think they were lying then too?

If you want to make a point, get your facts straight.

A few workers are willing to sell out the pensioners but they are a minority.

[Guest Derek L]

As opposed to the current working poor who are expected to work for peanuts and no benefits because corporations are too bloody cheap to employ them directly and give them full time wages plus benefits.

Lordy...we can't cut into the corporate pigs trough to feed the slaves now can we.

Keep it up, please keep your neanderthal slavery loving ways of thinking because it's exactly the fuel that will ignite the uprising here that we are witnessing everywhere else in the world.

Ask not what the company can do for you, but what you can do for the company………These big scary corporations have a responsibility to maximise profits for their shareholders, not to provide “full time work and benefits” to the working poor………The working poor are free to find another job.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Derek L

[jacee]

Ask not what the company can do for you, but you can do for the company………These big scary corporations have a reasonability to maximise profits for their shareholders, not to provide “full time work and benefits” to the working poor………The working poor are free to find another job.

Yah no one ever said corporations had to obey the law and fulfill their legal contract obligations ... /sarcasm

[Guest Derek L]

Why are you guys stickin your necks out for someone who will roll your wages back 10 years so that he/she may get a bigger bonus?

WWWTT

Who says they're going to roll our wages back?

If the company deems you profitable and irreplaceable, you have nothing to worry about...If your work can be done by someone in China for a 3rd the price....well

Edited September 5, 2011 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

Yah no one ever said corporations had to obey the law and fulfill their legal contract obligations ... /sarcasm

And when said obligations are met, no one ever said the company can’t move to Mexico...or go bankrupt.

[WWWTT]

If the company deems you profitable and irreplaceable, you have nothing to worry about...If your work can be done by someone in China for a 3rd the price....well

When the same standards start to apply towards upper management this country will start doing better!

Enough said.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Ask not what the company can do for you, but you can do for the company………These big scary corporations have a reasonability to maximise profits for their shareholders, not to provide “full time work and benefits” to the working poor………The working poor are free to find another job.

Actually if some of the companies in Canada and the US use the same shareholder/stock market practices in say another country like Japan were the laws in these regards are much different,many of them would be in jail.

WWWTT

[jacee]

Actually if some of the companies in Canada and the US use the same shareholder/stock market practices in say another country like Japan were the laws in these regards are much different,many of them would be in jail.

WWWTT

with Conrad

[Guest Derek L]

When the same standards start to apply towards upper management this country will start doing better!

Enough said.

WWWTT

Why's that? If management isn’t profitable they are replaced.....legally, it’s easier to replace management as opposed to a union employee......see Rick Wagoner compared to U/CAW.

Actually if some of the companies in Canada and the US use the same shareholder/stock market practices in say another country like Japan were the laws in these regards are much different,many of them would be in jail.

What laws are those?

[WWWTT]

Why's that? If management isn’t profitable they are replaced.....legally, it’s easier to replace management as opposed to a union employee......see Rick Wagoner compared to U/CAW.

What laws are those?

Actually I was refering more towards upper upper management.

As far as your second quote-its not my responsibility to educate you about trading practise.My comment was not intended to imply that I am an investment consultant or anything along those lines.However I believe that the laws governing such practise are signifagantly different in Europe and Asia.Do yourself a favour and educate yourself more in this field.Perhaps your opinion may change.

WWWTT

[Guest Derek L]

Actually I was refering more towards upper upper management.

You don't deem Wagoner upper, upper management? Then who? The design team/engineers with Hummer or Pontiac?

As far as your second quote-its not my responsibility to educate you about trading practise.My comment was not intended to imply that I am an investment consultant or anything along those lines.However I believe that the laws governing such practise are signifagantly different in Europe and Asia.Do yourself a favour and educate yourself more in this field.Perhaps your opinion may change.

Wow, if the Chrysler Corporation had of produced a Dodge like that, they would never have needed public money...........

So in other words, you don't know what you're talking about?

You do understand that many Japanese companies, Toyota for example, are publicly traded in Tokyo, London and Wall Street right?

[CPCFTW]

You don't deem Wagoner upper, upper management? Then who? The design team/engineers with Hummer or Pontiac?

Wow, if the Chrysler Corporation had of produced a Dodge like that, they would never have needed public money...........

So in other words, you don't know what you're talking about?

You do understand that many Japanese companies, Toyota for example, are publicly traded in Tokyo, London and Wall Street right?

The grass is always greener for the socialists.

If it weren't for the greedy CEOs there would be no poverty in Africa, and cancer + HIV would be cured... like in Europe and Japan. Educate your damn self fool!

[CPCFTW]

Ya right.

It sounds like that anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about.

The statements that you are making are to vague and generic to have any merit by my standards.

Not all corporations are evil,however there are some who could care less what happens to Canada 5 to 10yrs from now regardless of how much profit they rape out of the economy!

Do you really believe that all these CEOs VP',etc,etc earning millions in salary and benefits are worth what they are getting paid?

Where were you during the American congresional hearings about the big three auto makers a few years back?

Everyone of those CEO leaches got ther freekin butts reemed for taking their private jets to Washington to ask for more tax payer dollars or they would "lay people off"!

Who do you think paid for those private jets?

Again I ask why?Why?Why?

Why are you guys stickin your necks out for someone who will roll your wages back 10 years so that he/she may get a bigger bonus?

WWWTT

Maybe because we believe that society is better off that way? They are doing their jobs and they are paid well to do it.

I know you think you're a white knight sticking up for the little guy, but conservatives don't have the same jealousy and envy of CEOs and executives as you. Conservatives dream of being a wealthy CEO themselves and want to protect the freedom to reach that goal or to pursue their own success. Conservatives admire the CEOs and executives. Liberals jealously want to reap the rewards of the hard work of others and to have a comfortable life handed to everyone out of thin air. Anyone who succeeds is demonized in the socialist world.

Edited September 6, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Wild Bill]

Gee ... what were the US Steel bosses thinking when they knew all this and still signed a contract with gov? Do you think they were lying then too?

If you want to make a point, get your facts straight.

A few workers are willing to sell out the pensioners but they are a minority.

Get your own facts straight, too! There have been many union members on the local radio talk shows complaining that they have never been allowed to vote on this pension issue. How do you know its only a few workers when you won't allow them to be counted? Rolf better hope its only a few! If it's a lot then he likely won't get re-elected.

Still, I don't defend US steel. I hope Clement sues their ass off! US Steel broke their agreement because being an American company they were far more afraid of Obama than of Harper! Obama said "America First!" and US STeel of course said "Yessir!". Besides, Canada had never challenged broken promises by foreign companies before. This makes Clement's job more difficult. There's no legal precedent so they're breaking new legal ground. Still, apparently Clement feels it's worth it to try. Even if they can't make it stick they will at least be able to draft new agreements with other companies that will stick in court.

Following US law instead of Canadian doesn't excuse them, of course. They made a deal in this country and they should abide by it! Still, that doesn't change the pressures they are under. They have to find ways to stay profitable. If giving in to Rolf would put them out of business in Hamilton it makes sense to just close Hamilton.

I would rather that a Canadian company had bought Stelco in the first place but no one wanted it or could afford it. I've been in and out of that plant many times over the years and was always struck by what a primitive, screwed up mess it was! No wonder they built Nanticoke to have something modern and productive! Hilton Works should be made into a museum! It's obvious US Steel only wanted it for Nanticoke and the coke ovens. If US Steel hadn't bought it the City would have had to bulldoze it under.

That's what I don't understand about so many union/management negotiations. It's not just a matter of who has the most force. Money doesn't care. China is cleaning north american steel companies clocks with cheap steel! Our steel plants are closing no matter WHAT the unions want! If companies and unions don't work together to figure out how to handle foreign competition they're toast, pure and simple!

If they don't do it, they deserve to be!

[Guest Derek L]

Get your own facts straight, too! There have been many union members on the local radio talk shows complaining that they have never been allowed to vote on this pension issue. How do you know its only a few workers when you won't allow them to be counted? Rolf better hope its only a few! If it's a lot then he likely won't get re-elected.

Still, I don't defend US steel. I hope Clement sues their ass off! US Steel broke their agreement because being an American company they were far more afraid of Obama than of Harper! Obama said "America First!" and US STeel of course said "Yessir!". Besides, Canada had never challenged broken promises by foreign companies before. This makes Clement's job more difficult. There's no legal precedent so they're breaking new legal ground. Still, apparently Clement feels it's worth it to try. Even if they can't make it stick they will at least be able to draft new agreements with other companies that will stick in court.

Following US law instead of Canadian doesn't excuse them, of course. They made a deal in this country and they should abide by it! Still, that doesn't change the pressures they are under. They have to find ways to stay profitable. If giving in to Rolf would put them out of business in Hamilton it makes sense to just close Hamilton.

I would rather that a Canadian company had bought Stelco in the first place but no one wanted it or could afford it. I've been in and out of that plant many times over the years and was always struck by what a primitive, screwed up mess it was! No wonder they built Nanticoke to have something modern and productive! Hilton Works should be made into a museum! It's obvious US Steel only wanted it for Nanticoke and the coke ovens. If US Steel hadn't bought it the City would have had to bulldoze it under.

That's what I don't understand about so many union/management negotiations. It's not just a matter of who has the most force. Money doesn't care. China is cleaning north american steel companies clocks with cheap steel! Our steel plants are closing no matter WHAT the unions want! If companies and unions don't work together to figure out how to handle foreign competition they're toast, pure and simple!

If they don't do it, they deserve to be!

Sorry, couldn't help myself :

[Wild Bill]

Sorry, couldn't help myself :

Talk about politically correct! What a hoot! Especially some of those dancers! Guys dancing around a factory in their underwear? It's like Rocky from Rocky Horror!

[Guest Derek L]

Talk about politically correct! What a hoot! Especially some of those dancers! Guys dancing around a factory in their underwear? It's like Rocky from Rocky Horror!

I can't believe it's almost 30 years old

[jacee]

Get your own facts straight, too! There have been many union members on the local radio talk shows complaining that they have never been allowed to vote on this pension issue. How do you know its only a few workers when you won't allow them to be counted? Rolf better hope its only a few! If it's a lot then he likely won't get re-elected.

They did get counted when they voted on whether to take a vote on the contract and they were a minority I not even close. Yes the local corporate lackey media gave them lots of airtime and support but they didn't have the numbers to matter.

http://www.thespec.com/news/article/573189--local-1005-backs-their-leadership

"Fewer than 30 members voted‘no’ to a resolution asking if they supported the committee"

Still, I don't defend US steel. I hope Clement sues their ass off! US Steel broke their agreement because being an American company they were far more afraid of Obama than of Harper! Obama said "America First!" and US STeel of course said "Yessir!". Besides, Canada had never challenged broken promises by foreign companies before. This makes Clement's job more difficult. There's no legal precedent so they're breaking new legal ground. Still, apparently Clement feels it's worth it to try. Even if they can't make it stick they will at least be able to draft new agreements with other companies that will stick in court.

We agree there.

[Evening Star]

If you want more policies like these, though, you could always vote NDP, CPCFTW: http://ontariondp.com/en/horwath-announces-job-creation-tax-credit-to-create-20000-new-jobs-a-year-%E2%80%9Ccreate-a-job-get-a-tax-break%E2%80%9D

[Guest Derek L]

If you want more policies like these, though, you could always vote NDP, CPCFTW: http://ontariondp.com/en/horwath-announces-job-creation-tax-credit-to-create-20000-new-jobs-a-year-%E2%80%9Ccreate-a-job-get-a-tax-break%E2%80%9D

5k to create, not replace existing ones, a new job……Even if it’s near minimum wage, that’s still ~20k a year in salary……..Would you spend twenty dollars to save five?

Instead, why not give a Company an incentive to stay in Canada and pay it’s current workers ~20k a year as opposed to moving overseas and paying them 5k a year?