UN calls israeli raid 'excessive', 'unreasonable' and

[bloodyminded]

I insulted your view in no way - until you started throwing insults around.

Wrong.

If you don't like it, stick to discussing things without the accusations of "whining" et al.

My remarks about your "whining" is predated by your insults, by quite some time, in fact. I doubt you've forgotten.

I'll correct you when you're wrong.

And even when I'm not.

I have no idea what you're on about. If you're insinuating that I'm a liar, I suggest you back it up - pronto. :angry:

After calling me an "asshole" (which evidently was a reaction to my using the word "whining," today, in a terrific leap of temporal magic), you informed me that you weren't going to speak to me any more.

Either way is no problem with me, incidentally. Speak to me, or don't.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bud]

All the proof we have demonstrates exactly the opposite. We've all seen the videos.

we haven't seen the videos. all we've seen are a few edited clips by the IDF marketing team while hundreds of recordings by the passengers and the ship security video recordings have been confiscated by israel and never returned. israel has refused to hand those tapes to organizations, including the palmer panel investigating the incident. why does the IDF not want people to see the videos? hm?

[Guest American Woman]

My remarks about your "whining" is predated by your insults, by quite some time, in fact. I doubt you've forgotten.

Anyone with any sense at all reading through this thread can see otherwise. I would expect some to see it otherwise. Some people have no problem saying whatever it takes to promote their take on things - whether it's true or not. The proof is in this thread.

After calling me an "asshole" (which evidently was a reaction to my using the word "whining," today, in a terrific leap of temporal magic),

What??? Again, I have no idea what you're on about. More false claims.

you informed me that you weren't going to speak to me any more.

Whether or not I said that I wasn't going to speak to you any more, as I've now said - I will not give you free reign - and will correct you when you're wrong.

Either way is no problem with me, incidentally. Speak to me, or don't.

It's not about whether it's a "problem for [you]" or not. I have a problem with people making incorrect claims as well as people speaking - quite wrongly - for me.

[bloodyminded]

What??? Again, I have no idea what you're on about. More false claims.

Hmmm. For an "opinion," you sure are presenting this as "fact," AW.

Here's you:

This post clearly shows what an asshole you are.

(#500, "The Bombing in Oslo")

As you say, let's point out when the other person is wrong.

So...you're wrong.

Whether or not I said that I wasn't going to speak to you any more, as I've now said - I will not give you free reign - and will correct you when you're wrong.

Me too. See above.

It's not about whether it's a "problem for [you]" or not. I have a problem with people making incorrect claims as well as people speaking - quite wrongly - for me.

How about when they are speaking correctly of your own stated opinions...and you still accuse them of making "false claims"? What then?

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Rue]

Israel has a formidable navy. They could have surrounded the flotilla. Easily. They could have disabled the propellers.

That they took the most dangerous and least rational approach should anger you, not get you screeching about the evils of the dead men and so on.

That's not too friendly.

Yeesh I lost track of the number of moral assumptions not to mention the fact that in addition to being an expert on ethics and morality you are now as well a hand to hand combat expert. Your expertise just never ends.

I love the lecture, "they could have".... "they took the most dangerous and least rational approach"....my but we love making pronouncements with butkus to base our assumptions on now don't we....

You clearly need to go back and actually find out what happened before the IDF boarded the boat it did.

[bloodyminded]

Yeesh I lost track of the number of moral assumptions not to mention the fact that in addition to being an expert on ethics and morality you are now as well a hand to hand combat expert. Your expertise just never ends.

I love the lecture, "they could have".... "they took the most dangerous and least rational approach"....my but we love making pronouncements with butkus to base our assumptions on now don't we....

You clearly need to go back and actually find out what happened before the IDF boarded the boat it did.

Why don't you offer us your sage wisdom on the matter, instead of traipsing prettily from thread to thread to denounce good ol' bloodyminded, on everything from your own inability to understand my response to Wild Bill (your inability being my fault, in some strange way yet to be determined) to weird thoughts on what I might feel about circumcision.

So...what's your take, Rue? Like Bob's? Or something a little more to the left of Pinochet-Hard-Right?

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Rue]

Anyone with any sense at all reading through this thread can see otherwise. I would expect some to see it otherwise. Some people have no problem saying whatever it takes to promote their take on things - whether it's true or not. The proof is in this thread.

What??? Again, I have no idea what you're on about. More false claims.

Whether or not I said that I wasn't going to speak to you any more, as I've now said - I will not give you free reign - and will correct you when you're wrong.

It's not about whether it's a "problem for [you]" or not. I have a problem with people making incorrect claims as well as people speaking - quite wrongly - for me.

..But you know I love you and your chutzbah.

Kudos. You are far more patient than I. I commend you.

Fact is this issue resolved itself after the fact when the people on the boat admitted some were in fact organized terrorists sent to stage an incident and had weapons.

what is now ironic is the Turks who staged this incident are the same righteous individuals now doing to the Kurds what they claim Israel is doing to the citizens of Gaza.

This was a politically staged incident by Turkey and unfortunately as it now has become evident its caught up in a far greater tit for tat being played out in this area of the world as Turkey and Iran form one alliance to fight the Kurds, and Israel finds itself forced to align with Greece and the Kurds and India as to naval defence concerns and the US caught in the middle.

Turkey could care less about Palestinians as it demonstrates as to how easy it is for it to carry out genocide of Kurds for wanting a state while accusing Israel of the same with Palestinians.

It had no problem forming an alliance with Syria to crush Kurds in Syria before itpanicked realizing it propped a dying government and ooopsy retreated.

In Bloody's world Turkey and who ever believes what he does, is "good" and Israel and anyone who sides with Israel is "bad".

The reality is Israelis, Kurds, Palestinians, Iranians, citizens of all these nations get squeezed as their governments go tit for tat with their alliances trying to control geographic zones.

As we speak India will not sit for the Iranian navy growing and threatening its shipping waters and serving as a proxy for India's competitor China in harassing Indian trade by sea to gain Chinese advantage as they both compete for the same goods and supplies and delaying ship movement to sail around the Iranian navy can give China getting access to markets India would otherwise arrive at earlier.

Turkey suddenly showed interest in Syria for 2 yeasons-one a destination to ship oil to Europe and two as a common ally against Kurds. Both blew up in Turkey's face.

This little Turkish righteous display suddenly over Palestinians was an attempt to pose as a mediator between Syria and Israel only the pretense collapsed as it became clear Turkey's alliance with Iran and its proxy Hezbollah may have been started to contain Kurds and prevent them from starting their own state but has backed Shiite militants against Kurds who also attack Sunni Muslims in Syria and Egypt. Ooops.

What did Turkey really expect Israel to do-roll over when it started using Palestinians as a pawn to make itself look tough to the Arab world with Israel? Really?

Israel of course turned to Greece and Cyprus. It jas just discovered natural has off its coast it will share with Cyprus and ship to Greece who will now champion Israel's cause in the EU in return for Israel helping out Greece's debts with cheap gas.

Just yesterday Israel and Greece signed a military alliance. Gee why.

Gee when Turkey cut off its ties with Israel who would have thought Turkey's no.1 enemy would offer Israel friendship. Golly gee like Israel and India would not share concerns over the Iranian navy. Golly gee the Israelis would never assist the PKK Iran wing try resist the current government in Iran imagine that.

The fact is Turkey tried to bully Israel into abandoning the Kurds and when Israel would not, it then set the stage with the flotilla incidents and that did not work either.

Now Turkey tries to save face threatening to escort the next flotilla with its navy ships.

Right. The moment it said that NATO was on the phone saying uh no, we won't risk a war between two NATO members let alone the Israeli navy a strategic ally of NATO naval missions in the Middle East to contain terrorist shipment of weapons.

Its a tit for tat and one must follow the bouncing ball but in Bloody's world we operate on a WWE script with one bad guy and one good guy and where people like American Woman must be wrong if they can't see the same black and white.

Fact is Israel has the right in international waters to intercept ships it suspects of carrying weapons to be used against it as all nations do. Fact is NATO carries out the very same search missions on ships every day.

Fact is if Turkey thinks it will send Navy ships to escort ships into Gaza under international war that would be considered an act of beligerence and grounds for war and no Israel does not have to sit silently and allow the Turkish navy to escort in ships with weapons for terrorists.

If those ships have no weapons then this is all a moot point because after inspection they are allowed to move on and Turkey has been finessed because Greece and Cyprus have alread offered to inspect the ships instead of Israel and serve as mediator.

Ooopsy Turkey finessed itself right out of its role of alleged mediator.

Turkey chose its fate. It chose to embrace Iran as its strategic ally and trot out the

blame Israel card to try suck up Arab support for it becoming the leader of the Middle East.

Let's see how long the military generals in Turkey allow themselves to be continued to be drawn into a war with Israel and Greece and getting the US caught in the middle.

[Guest American Woman]

Hmmm. For an "opinion," you sure are presenting this as "fact," AW.

[...]

How about when they are speaking correctly of your own stated opinions...and you still accuse them of making "false claims"? What then?

I can't even begin to make sense of all that ............ But do have a nice day.

[Saipan]

So...what's your take, Rue? Like Bob's? Or something a little more to the left of Pinochet-Hard-Right?

Beat Fidel Castro and Kim Ill Joke anytime. Since you don't care about the real issue here.

[bloodyminded]

edit, see below

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Beat Fidel Castro and Kim Ill Joke anytime. Since you don't care about the real issue here.

What are you on about now?

[bloodyminded]

I can't even begin to make sense of all that ............ But do have a nice day.

Then let me simplify it for you: either your lie has been exposed; or your mistake has been proven, 100%, incorrect...thanks to your own words, which I quoted directly.

Whichever you prefer.

[bud]

So...what's your take, Rue? Like Bob's? Or something a little more to the left of Pinochet-Hard-Right?

hah!

[Guest American Woman]

Then let me simplify it for you:

I reminded you that you called me an "asshole." (Not because I was offended...but because you have suddenly deemed insults as something bad, reversing your existing stance with terrific suddenness.)

You said it was a "false claim."

So I quoted your words directly...proving that you, in fact, were making the "false claim."

Now, you presented the erroneous opinion--that you never said such a thing--as "fact." Another of your pet peeves, though only when you perceive others doing it.

As for the other part that so confused you--I was reiterating your notion of "correcting people when they're wrong."

Or...just maybe, you lied, it was exposed, and so now your only recourse is to end this discussion. Whatever makes you happy!

What??? What words did you quote directly?? Seriously - you have completely lost me. Seems to me you are doing a circle jerk dance trying to prove I lied - when I never did any such thing. But do carry on. I know nothing will stop you. It never does ...........

And Rue - right about now I'm not feeling as patient as you might think.....

[Bob]

we haven't seen the videos. all we've seen are a few edited clips by the IDF marketing team while hundreds of recordings by the passengers and the ship security video recordings have been confiscated by israel and never returned. israel has refused to hand those tapes to organizations, including the palmer panel investigating the incident. why does the IDF not want people to see the videos? hm?

Israel has released a lot of footage, and a lot of footage wasn't taken by the IDF, either. Plenty of video was uploaded by the agitators themselves. Go check out there YouTube channels. Rather than rewriting a new false narrative every time you engage in a discussion about these events in order to portray the IDF as evil and the Jihadis as peace-loving pacifists, just go check the videos. There are hundreds of them, almost exclusively from the videos of the Islamist filth themselves. It takes about two seconds to finds hundreds of these videos on YouTube and other video sharing sites. And guess what? All of the videos corroborate the narrative of these Islamists looking for confrontation and desiring martyrdom.

I'm not going to waste my time posting the videos we should have all seen by now of the Jihadis doing a war prayer prior to these events, candidly speaking of their desires to die for "Palestine" and Islam, and then assaulting the IDF after their refusal to comply with reasonable (and certainly lawful) instructions to turn around and submit to inspection.

They wanted confrontation and violence, and they got it.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Bob

[bloodyminded]

What??? What words did you quote directly?? Seriously - you have completely lost me. Seems to me you are doing a circle jerk dance trying to prove I lied - when I never did any such thing. But do carry on. I know nothing will stop you. It never does ...........

Um...it was the post from which you quoted...meaning, surely, that you read it?

Or maybe not.

Again: you told me that my assertion--that you not so long ago called me an asshole--was a "false claim."

(Your opinion presented as "fact," which you now say irks you, and that you never do it. )

Except you did it, of course...as I quoted you directly, from post #500 in the "Oslo Bombings" thread.

I already showed you this...are you blind?

So, you are either lying...or you're mistaken, and I've helpfully corrected you.(And without so much as a "thanks, bloodyminded, for correcting my foolish, factual error!" )

Are you going to continue to deny it? It's searchable...it's posted...and I even told what post it was.

Christ on a cracker, you're dense.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

Sure, they were "amped up on bloodthirst" and ready to kill the IDF...but they forgot to bring suitable weaponry for the job. Slipped their mind.

Did all the propaganda sites you've visited honestly and sincerely overlook this interesting matter?

Is such an glaring error of ommission even possible?

By god, I think it is. The wonders of propaganda, eh?

They had knives and blunt instruments. Those can kill people. They avoided bringing a lot of more serious weaponry in order to avoid allegation of arms smuggling should they be inspected. How can you seriously be this stupid? Do the videos NOT show a violent mob preparing for their assault on the IDF prior to the engagement? Have you NOT seen the videos? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth and tripping over your own contradictions - first you said something along the lines of the Jihadis understandably "defending" themselves (yeah, right!), and now you say that were ill-prepared and didn't intend to have a violent confrontation with the soldiers?

Nobody can take you seriously, anymore. You're literally lying through your teeth with absurd suggestions that this agitators weren't planning on and didn't wish for violence. Despite the fact that most of us have seen the pre-engagement videos with these religious nutcases chanting "Allahu Akbhar" in their war prayers, and video testimonies on the ship prior to the events with these Jihadis openly declaring their wishes for martyrdom, you're still in here trying to sell us this shit about them being peaceful demonstrators who had their hands forced by the evil IDF.

[Bob]

Israel has a formidable navy. They could have surrounded the flotilla. Easily. They could have disabled the propellers.

That they took the most dangerous and least rational approach should anger you, not get you screeching about the evils of the dead men and so on.

I told you, Israel should have ordered all persons on deck to lay down on their stomachs with their hands behind their backs, and to shot anyone who didn't comply (for humanitarian purposes, the initial shots perhaps should be fired at limbs, if possible). I am deadly serious about that. Leftist politics have also infected the IDF's command, where soldiers are placed in excessive danger in vain attempts to appease the likes of people like yourself who have warped and sick perspectives. The lives of the soldiers should be worth infinitely more than politics.

And spare us your amateur-hour military recommendations. "Disabling the propellers", what are you Navy Seal/frogman, now? Who are you kidding? You know nothing about naval operations and abilities, so don't even go there.

[Guest American Woman]

Um...it was the post from which you quoted...meaning, surely, that you read it?

Or maybe not.

Again: you told me that my assertion--that you not so long ago called me an asshole--was a "false claim."

No, I didn't. This is what you said:

After calling me an "asshole" (which evidently was a reaction to my using the word "whining," today, in a terrific leap of temporal magic), you informed me that you weren't going to speak to me any more.

That is what I claimed is not true. And it isn't. It's right out of left field.

(Your opinion presented as "fact," which you now say irks you, and that you never do it. )

Except you did it, of course...as I quoted you directly, from post #500 in the "Oslo Bombings" thread.

I already showed you this...are you blind?

So, you are either lying...or you're mistaken, and I've helpfully corrected you.(And without so much as a "thanks, bloodyminded, for correcting my foolish, factual error!" )

Are you going to continue to deny it? It's searchable...it's posted...and I even told what post it was.

Yeah, I'm going to continue to deny WHAT I denied. It's right there, in this thread.

Christ on a cracker, you're dense.

Yeah, I'm the dense one.

Good Lord, you can go off on a tangent. You made an incorrect statement, I called you on it, backing it up with the facts, you claimed I claimed something I didn't claim, and then you started in about this ...... and seriously, you lost me a long time ago. If not being able to follow your line of thought means I'm dense, then I'll thank the good Lord for making me dense.

[bloodyminded]

No, I didn't. This is what you said:

That is what I claimed is not true.

Wow. This dishonesty is amazing, AW.

Here's exactly what you claimed is not true....based, again, on your own words, your post:

After calling me an "asshole" (which evidently was a reaction to my using the word "whining," today, in a terrific leap of temporal magic),

What??? Again, I have no idea what you're on about. More false claims.

You see? That's exactly how it was, word for word. You've now added in the other part (about not speaking to me again) because those words you uttered elsewhere (though in direct relation)...so you can now say that's the part which you claim is false.

It isn't. (That addended part isn't either, by the way, but I'm sick of doing searches to prove you wrong...once a day should be sufficient, yes?

The part you claim was false is in fact what you said. And you know it.

So now you determine to change the context of what you yourself were responding to?

Tch tch. Not nice.

And it isn't. It's right out of left field.

Yeah, the part where I quoted you directly must really obfuscate the matter.

Yeah, I'm going to continue to deny WHAT I denied. It's right there, in this thread.

Yes, you're going to lie even when your back's against the wall. Good for you.

Good Lord, you can go off on a tangent. You made an incorrect statement, I called you on it, backing it up with the facts, you claimed I claimed something I didn't claim,

You did claim it, AW. It's in your post. did you note that I quoted you?

And did you note this time that I quoted this later response (Quoted it directly....which you didn't) and showed how you intentionally misquoted yourself to worm out of it?

Too funny.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

And spare us your amateur-hour military recommendations. "Disabling the propellers", what are you Navy Seal/frogman, now? Who are you kidding? You know nothing about naval operations and abilities, so don't even go there.

Wow, you know a lot, Bob. (You've pointed this out many times.)

It's as if you said "the IDF fired their weapons" and then you were scoffed at for your pretences to military know-how.

Disrupting propellers is old hat, well known, and effective.

Probably the IDF even considered it, but decided it lacked the proper theatrics.

By the way....what's with all the insults, man? you've been especially promiscuous with them today. Simmer down, my brother, simmer down. I'm not quite as evil as you think.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Saipan]

Disrupting propellers is old hat, well known, and effective.

Make a noise that disrupts the propellers?

Or speak Hebrew real loud

[Bob]

Wow, you know a lot, Bob. (You've pointed this out many times.)

It's as if you said "the IDF fired their weapons" and then you were scoffed at for your pretences to military know-how.

Disrupting propellers is old hat, well known, and effective.

Probably the IDF even considered it, but decided it lacked the proper theatrics.

By the way....what's with all the insults, man? you've been especially promiscuous with them today. Simmer down, my brother, simmer down. I'm not quite as evil as you think.

I'm really surprised that you're joining in the fun in describing the IDF soldiers involved in the raid as murderers, while completely everything we've come to know about this IHH organization, and, particularly, the group of violent Muslims onboard the Mavi Marmara who got what they say they wanted.

We should really just get down to the fundamentals - do you think the blockade against Gaza is unjust? We shouldn't waste time on details if your point of departure for entering this discussion is one that views the blockade as an ongoing crime that must be stopped.

[bloodyminded]

We should really just get down to the fundamentals - do you think the blockade against Gaza is unjust? We shouldn't waste time on details if your point of departure for entering this discussion is one that views the blockade as an ongoing crime that must be stopped.

Of course I think the blockade is unjust; further, we've had this discussion before, in which you asked me the same question and received the selfsame answer.

I don't know what's more irritating: your assumption that a difference of opinion on the blockade is an automatic delineation of anti-Jewish bigotry...or the fact that you self-evidently do not read my posts...even as you respond to them.

[GostHacked]

I'm really surprised that you're joining in the fun in describing the IDF soldiers involved in the raid as murderers, while completely everything we've come to know about this IHH organization, and, particularly, the group of violent Muslims onboard the Mavi Marmara who got what they say they wanted.

We should really just get down to the fundamentals - do you think the blockade against Gaza is unjust? We shouldn't waste time on details if your point of departure for entering this discussion is one that views the blockade as an ongoing crime that must be stopped.

You also don't support the Palestinians getting their own state. You think if Gaza and the West Bank were absorbed into Egypt and Jordan, that that would solve Israels issues? Really? .... Really?

In my view, Israel seems more willing to continue the occupation (and risk the inherent dangers of an occupation) rather than letting the Palestinians have their own state/country.