BC has greater political will than Ontario - why any tax?

[TimG]

I see it differently. One way or another we will be taxed but this will teach BC governments to think long and hard before they ever treat the electorate with such contempt again. To me, this will be the real legacy of the HST in BC and it is an important and lasting one.

No. It just means that governments are not going to risk changing anything - no matter how outdated - because change will always piss someone off. It simply entrenches the status quo. By rejecting the HST despite the fact that it is an excellent tax on paper, BC voters have taught politicians that voters don't care about rational arguments. What politician is going to take a risk of proposing a tax policy that cannot be argued from a rational perspective now? If it can't be sold with demagoguery it won't be sold at all. That is recipe for creating a broken and inefficient tax system. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

No. It just means that governments are not going to risk changing anything - no matter how outdated - because change will always piss someone off. It simply entrenches the status quo. By rejecting the HST despite the fact that it is an excellent tax on paper, BC voters have taught politicians that voters don't care about rational arguments. What politician is going to take a risk of proposing a tax policy that cannot be argued from a rational perspective now? If it can't be sold with demagoguery it won't be sold at all. That is recipe for creating a broken and inefficient tax system.

Tim I'm going to assume that you don't live in BC.

Lets have a history lesson on how HST was brought in.

2005 - When Liberal Small Business Minister Rick Thorpe was asked if the B.C. Liberals would bring in an HST, he says “The answer is a simple ‘no,’ and the reason is we feel we do not want to give our sovereign tax rights away to the federal government.” Thorpe also notes that he did not see any economic benefit of harmonizing the taxes.

2006 - Liberal Finance Minister Carole Taylor says “not on my watch” when questioned about whether the B.C. Liberals would bring in the HST

May 2009- During the election period the Liberals stated The harmonized GST would make it harder for future provincial governments to lower or raise sales tax rates, which reduces flexibility. In short, a harmonized GST is not something that is contemplated in the B.C. Liberal platform.

July 2009 - Liberals announce that they are bringing in the HST. There was an immediate storm of protest

April 2010 - Now former Liberal Finance Minister Carole Taylor says she opposes the HST because it forces families to pay more. “This particular tax takes the tax off of businesses – it takes $1.8 billion off of businesses – and puts it on consumers.

September 2010 - A freedom of information request came to light, revealing that the BC Liberals had formed HST-related plans prior to the 2009 election—contrary to their statements on the subject. Liars

November 2010 - Campbell made a televised address to the public, announcing his intention to resign as Premier of British Columbia. Campbell resigned as premier on March 14, 2011, he was succeeded by Christy Clark.

So in summary, voters asked during election if the HST would be brought in by Liberals. Liberals said no way, it's not a good tax. Meanwhile behind closed doors they are really planning to bring it in. After election they bring it in. People stand up and say hey you just lied to us and your not going to get away with it. Campbell then tries to bribe voter's by telling them that he's planning to give BC people an income tax break. This bribe doesn't work, and people still want to axe the HST. Campbell then reneges on his income tax promise (two time lier). His approval rating fall to only 9% and he finally resigns.

In late June of 2011 it was reported that Campbell was to be named Canadian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom. So Harper's little puppet gets his reward. MAKES ME PUKE :angry:

The Province

As the government gets set to dismantle the HST — and all the uncertainty, cost and hassles that go along with the task — it’s well to remember they had plenty of chances to escape their own trap.

Edited August 27, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

So in summary, voters asked during election if the HST would be brought in by Liberals. Liberals said no way, it's not a good tax.

Politicians that never change the minds about bad policies are bad leaders. But this is irrelevant. The tax is good for the economy and how it was brought in is irrelevant. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Politicians that never change the minds about bad policies are bad leaders. But this is irrelevant. The tax is good for the economy and how it was brought in is irrelevant.

Politicians that never change the minds about bad policies are bad leaders? They didn't change their minds, their mind was made up before the election.

How it was brought in is irrelevant? What is this a Dictatorship ? Or a Corporatocracy ?

Edited August 27, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

How it was brought in is irrelevant? What is this a dictatorship?

A good policy is a good policy no matter what the process. Whining about how some Liberals may have said different things on the HST changes nothing. Individuals liberals are not the party and once elected the government can and should change its mind if it promised things that were stupid or unworkable. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

A good policy is a good policy no matter what the process. Whining about how some Liberals may have said different things on the HST changes nothing. Individuals liberals are not the party and once elected the government can and should change its mind if it promised things that were stupid or unworkable.

Except that it's not a good policy. Premier Campbell and Finance Minister Colin Hansen admit that their HST shifts $1.9 billion in tax from businesses to B.C. families. Creating jobs, and passing on tax savings to consumers is all Bullshat.

[TimG]

Except that it's not a good policy. Premier Campbell and Finance Minister Colin Hansen admit that their HST shifts $1.9 billion in tax from businesses to B.C. families. Creating jobs, and passing on tax savings to consumers is all Bullshat.

Sorry, you don't know you are talking about. Shifting taxes from costs that are hidden in the price of goods to visible taxes IS good policy. It makes government more accountable. The rebates given to poor families more than make up for the impact on the lower income families. People who claim otherwise are simply making crap up.

[scouterjim]

Sorry, you don't know you are talking about. Shifting taxes from costs that are hidden in the price of goods to visible taxes IS good policy. It makes government more accountable. The rebates given to poor families more than make up for the impact on the lower income families. People who claim otherwise are simply making crap up.

They were going to TAX the rebates. They were viewed as TAXBLE income. Paying a tax on a tax. Great.

[TimG]

They were going to TAX the rebates. They were viewed as TAXBLE income. Paying a tax on a tax. Great.

WTF are you taking about? If you are poor enough to receive the rebates you are not going to paying much in terms of taxes. In any case, the rebate rates are set based on the tax policy. If they were not taxable the poor would get less money so quibbling about whether they are taxable or not is a waste of time. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Sorry, you don't know you are talking about. Shifting taxes from costs that are hidden in the price of goods to visible taxes IS good policy. It makes government more accountable. The rebates given to poor families more than make up for the impact on the lower income families. People who claim otherwise are simply making crap up.

Do you work for B.C. Business Council or the Fraser Institute? No one believes your propaganda. You, the BC Neo-Liberals, the Federal Conservatives, and Big business lost the fight. I've never been more proud to be a British Columbian.

If Campbell thought that this tax was so great for the people and the economy why didn't he just be honest. Make his case, have a debate , and discuss the matter? You may believe that BC people are stupid and just need to be lied to for their own good. I believe that with the proper facts from both sides and some debate, things may or may not have been different, but it would have been what the people wanted with out bringing it in, killing Campbells political legacy, paying back the 1.6 billion, paying for a referendum, paying for tax system to be switched back and forth, ect.

This is all the BC Neo-Liberals fault, and I hope the pay for it in the next election.

[TimG]

Do you work for B.C. Business Council or the Fraser Institute?

Yawn. Typical ignorant leftist rant. If someone does not buy into your voodoo economics you accuse them of being a lobbyist. You simply cannot comprehend that a knowledgeable person would look at the facts and conclude that the HST is a good tax. In any case, 45% of people still voted for the HST so you claims of unanimity are gross exaggerations.

You may believe that BC people are stupid and just need to be lied to for their own good.

I have yet to see any evidence that the Liberals actually lied. When they made the statements that likely believed them. After the election they changed their mind. As I said, there is nothing wrong with politicians changing their mind if they want to bring in better policies. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

You simply cannot comprehend that a knowledgeable person would look at the facts and conclude that the HST is a good tax. In any case, 45% of people still voted for the HST so you claims of unanimity are gross exaggerations.

Well it's where your your so called knowledge comes from that concerns me.

And yes 45% of people voted for the HST. I think this number would have been a whole lot lower if Clark had not dropped it to 10% and if she didn't spend taxpayer's money on her TV propaganda adds. I'll quote my 19 year old, less informed and naive niece " I want to vote for the 10% tax"....Uhhhg. This trick might of worked on some of the less mentally fortunate people, but the majority wasn't fooled.

[TimG]

Well it's where your your so called knowledge comes from that concerns me.

But that is more leftiest arrogance because you assume that information that comes from sources you do not agree with is wrong. IOW, an idea is not wrong simply because of a corporate lobby group supports it.

And yes 45% of people voted for the HST. I think this number would have been a whole lot lower if Clark had not dropped it to 10%

And it probably would have won if Campbell had brought it in as a discussion item and set up roaming panels to debate it for awhile instead of dumping it on taxpayers at once. What is your point? The referendum results do not mean that the majority of people shared with your irrational hatred of corporations. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

If Campbell thought that this tax was so great for the people and the economy why didn't he just be honest. Make his case, have a debate , and discuss the matter?

Another missed chance. What is she afraid of?????

Premier Clark rejects HST debate offer

[CitizenX]

But that is more leftiest arrogance because you assume that information that comes from sources you do not agree with is wrong. IOW, an idea is not wrong simply because of a corporate lobby group supports it.

And you don't believe that information coming from the business community, and right wing think tanks will be biased? McDonalds would probably tell you that big macs are good for you.You probably believe that the tax savings that corporations saved would be passed on to the consumer too right?

And it probably would have won if Campbell had brought it in as a discussion item and set up roaming panels to debate it for awhile instead of dumping it on taxpayers at once. What is your point? The referendum results do not mean that the majority of people shared with your irrational hatred of corporations.

She had her chance what was she afraid of? Premier Clark rejects HST debate offer.

Edited August 27, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

And you don't believe that information coming from the business community, and right wing think tanks will be biased?

Do you seriously believe that information coming from various left wing groups is not just as biased? All sources of information are biased. Left wing sources like environmental groups are often more insidious because they like to pretend they are unbiased.

She had her chance what was she afraid of?

I said a roaming panels and townhalls BEFORE the tax was included in the budget would have helped. A political stage show after the fact is rather pointless. Edited August 27, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Do you seriously believe that information coming from various left wing groups is not just as biased? All sources of information are biased. Left wing sources like environmental groups are often more insidious because they like to pretend they are unbiased.

What left wing group are you talking about when it comes to the HST? And what reasons do left wing environmental groups have to be biased?

A political stage show after the fact is rather pointless.

that article was from June 29, 2011. If Clark was confident about her HST stance, wouldn't a a public debate before the referendum vote help her keep the HST?

Edited August 27, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

What left wing group are you talking about when it comes to the HST? And what reasons do left wing environmental groups have to be biased?

Nothing to do with the HST - just a general point. But do you really think that Zalm opposed it because he was looking out for the little guy? Nonsense, he was looking after his property development business. Once he got the ball rolling he kept going out of ego.

that article was from June 29, 2011. If Clark was confident about her HST stance, wouldn't a a public debate before the referendum vote help her keep the HST?

I said before the HST was even tabled in the budget which was long before Clark's time.

[CitizenX]

TimG you didn't answer my questions. Stumped????

[TimG]

TimG you didn't answer my questions.

What questions?

[CitizenX]

1. What left wing group's biased information are you talking about when it comes to the HST?
   
2. What reasons do left wing environmental groups have to be biased? (off topic but you brought it up)
   
3. If Clark was confident about her HST stance, wouldn't a a public debate before the referendum vote help her keep the HST?
   

Edited August 27, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

What left wing group biased information are you talking about when it comes to the HST?

Anyone who opposed did so by making claims that either false or misleading.

What reasons do left wing environmental groups have to be biased?

Same ones as any other group: money and ideology.

If Clark was confident about her HST stance, wouldn't a a public debate before the referendum vote help her keep the HST?

Who cares?

[CitizenX]

You must have rushed those answers so I'll give you another go at them. Please take your time and re-read the questions. I know you can do better

[Wilber]

No. It just means that governments are not going to risk changing anything - no matter how outdated - because change will always piss someone off. It simply entrenches the status quo. By rejecting the HST despite the fact that it is an excellent tax on paper, BC voters have taught politicians that voters don't care about rational arguments. What politician is going to take a risk of proposing a tax policy that cannot be argued from a rational perspective now? If it can't be sold with demagoguery it won't be sold at all. That is recipe for creating a broken and inefficient tax system.

Again, I see it differently. Even though I ended up holding my nose and voting for what I considered the lesser of two evils, retaining the HST, I can't really be unhappy with the result. BC politicians now know that saying something during an election campaign and doing the opposite the day after the polls close, can have consequences that can't be put off until the next election. To me, that is a victory for democracy, honesty and respect for the people who put you there. No longer will BC politicians believe that winning an election gives them a carte blanche to do anything they want between them. That's a good thing. Considering how high the bar is set for one of these petitions to succeed, they will be a rare occurrence but it is good for our governments to know that the possibility exists.

Yesterdays result was 100% the fault of Campbell. If he had raised the question of the HST after the election and taken the time to have rational arguments instead of just imposing it out of the blue like some lord of the manor, he would have most likely got the ten points he needed for a referendum to pass and would most likely still be in office. Even more likely, there would never have been a referendum at all, nor would a petition to have one ever been raised, let alone succeeded.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Wilber

[TimG]

If he had raised the question of the HST after the election and taken the time to have rational arguments instead of just imposing it out of the blue like some lord of the manor.

I agree that an introduction that was better handled we would have avoided this fiasco but I don't think the politicians will learn the lessons that you think they should learn. I think that when it comes to taxes the status quo will be an iron cage that we will never escape.