Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every socia

[Shwa]

That criticism is mainly directed at authority, not youth.

Today we are just beginning to understand the meaning of the rights of the individual, vs. the rights of the collective. The rights of the individual are precious because the person is temporal, while the collective lasts "forever". The corporation never dies, therefore all things that it amasses over time it can keep forever and its power constantly increases. While we human beings only have a short time and will soon cease to be. So the rights of the individual must be regarded as supreme. Simply put, the corporation can wait. But we are not at the point yet where we regard people as precious.

Which will mean we have come full circle in some respects. The interesting aspect of it though, do we need to move to the same sort of historical ethic that gave rise to that supreme individual, or can it be achieved through the present course. That is, do we need to move back to some 'golden age' or at least the same attitudes to spawned the original 'golden age.'

I'm talking about how young people instinctively know what's coming for them. They might look to their docile burned out parents who've spent the majority of their life working in a job that has no direct meaning for them, other than to make some money that they get to spend supporting themselves to come back another day, and an occasional brief "vacation". Youth are smarter now than they've ever been. By that I mean, they know about the news. They have a bleak outlook on the system which is obviously corrupt and unfair. There was a report just yesterday, 'assholes on the job get more pay'... what is that saying about our workplace, where we spend most of our days? It's not about recognizing the value of individual human beings, but a place where meanness, deception and pettiness rule the day. That is the personality that succeeds.

To a degree. My kids see it, they are aware. I am lucky enough to have kids that not only can perceive that possible side of my life, but they ask about it and can engage in sensible dialogue about their impressions about it. The older ones have taken steps to address it directly, mainly through independent means, their own business or a contract that is flexible enough to include their present interests.

From a youthful perspective: "You've had a fun life so far little Johnny, now it's time to get in your CAGE! By the time you get out you'll be old, burned out, docile, like your mom and dad. Your life will be a complete waste of time. Oh and by the way the greedy elite class, whose life is virtually one long vacation will be telling you what to do. They're getting rich and you'll never have a chance to be like them because they've got the money, they got the power and they'll see to it that you never get a chance."

The answer to that has to be, a rock smashed through a window. Smash it, grab it, and burn it!

Which seems to be a prevailing response from time to time. Still there are those that will enter such a life with the idea that they might be able to change it from the inside, even if in a small degree. Some are more successful than others of course, but even small changes towards an orientation of that supreme individual is worthwhile and has likely been the normal course over history, as unremarkable as it seems in any given moment.

[Shwa]

I've never understood how all these "drama queens" got the idea that rich people and corporations are deliberately "keeping them down". In reality, rich people and corporations never think of people as individuals! They think of them as markets. If you are not in their market demographic then you are irrelevant to them.

So what's really going on is that some poor folks are buying into the idea of 'entitlement', where they think they are poor because someeone is stealing their share.

Now, there are some pretty huge assumptions here. First off, where is it written that there is some big bag of goodies and a system that doles it out to each individual? Far as I know, there is no such bag! We fill our OWN bag with the products of our own work! If we don't work, the bag stays empty.

If there is no job for someone with our skill sets, it is up to us to upgrade our skill sets. We can't expect a company to stay in business building buggy whips forever.

If everyone who complains about China having stolen so many jobs took the trouble to read the label on that can of beans they buy at the supermarket and stop buying Chinese products then a lot of those jobs would come back! Sure, it's not always easy to avoid Chinese stuff but it's not a case of a perfect boycott or nothing! A sincere effort will change things dramatically!

Second, it seems to be human nature to favour a conspiracy as an explanation for not having something. We don't have free power because "someone" is hiding Tesla's notes. "Someone" is hiding the secret of a 200 mpg carburetor. "Someone" is keeping me poor.

A conspiracy means someone is in control of the situation and therefore could possibly be induced, by force or if necessary coercion, to change their mind. As opposed to no one being in control except yourself. That would mean you can't argue or force someone. You have to do it all yourself.

Lastly, if a conspiracy is aimed at you then you must be important in some way. If no one cares the blow to one's self-worth seems more than most of us can stand! There must be a stage where we can feel important! No stage, no drama, no sense of self-worth.

As I said, it's just human nature.

Actually it is human nature to congregate in social groups and often to address problems common to the group, collectively. From gangs to corporations. So in that way, it is more of a true statement for "them" to assert "someone is keeping us poor" and then address that problem collectively. That is why mobs can wield some pretty dangerous power.

As SB clearly pointed out, the notion of "people as precious" is not an effective individual notion nor a notion of effective individuality, but is a notion that must be recognized, collectively, by "us" as a social group.

It's a tricky problem to reconcile, especially when you have so many people giving themselves over to being batteries for someone elses toys or you have those who feel a true sense of entitlement, act on it, and unabashedly screw over others in the process.

[jbg]

I have personal knowledge of such a case. It's not spanking per se but physical discipline nonetheless. An 8 year old boy was on a weekend visit with his father. The boy pulled the collar of another kid's sweater to the point of hurting the child. The father did the same to his 8 year old and asked him how he liked it done to him. The 8 year old called his mom to complain his father hurt him. Let's just say the child in question was looking for attention. The mother charged the father with child abuse and it went to trial. The judge ruled the father's disciplinary action was justifiable and reasonable under the circumstances. Stuff like this happens dre.

I'll make it better for you.

Once, my older son, who is a lot stronger than my younger son, was roughhousing with his brother. I guided him gently to the stairs and gave him a lecture to the effect of "pick on someone your own size". A few months later, at school, the psychologist, out of nowhere, approached my older son and asked if his parents had ever done anything to scare him. He told them that his father "put" him on the stairs. The school psychologist claims to have heard it as "pushed" with the result that the local social service agency intervened. The complaint was, of course, ruled "unfounded".

Trust me, we have a loving and close family.

[Thorn]

I'm talking about how young people instinctively know what's coming for them. They might look to their docile burned out parents who've spent the majority of their life working in a job that has no direct meaning for them, other than to make some money that they get to spend supporting themselves to come back another day, and an occasional brief "vacation". Youth are smarter now than they've ever been.

What makes them smarter? The internet?

By that I mean, they know about the news

.

Few of the young ever read newspapers or news magazines or watch the news on TV. So where are they getting this 'news'?

They have a bleak outlook on the system which is obviously corrupt and unfair. There was a report just yesterday, 'assholes on the job get more pay'... what is that saying about our workplace, where we spend most of our days?

The report could probably have also said that aggressive people make more money but that wouldn't have sounded as sexy. I bet the rude people are aggressive, and that's the real reason they make more money.

From a youthful perspective: "You've had a fun life so far little Johnny, now it's time to get in your CAGE! By the time you get out you'll be old, burned out, docile, like your mom and dad. Your life will be a complete waste of time

.

My parents partied most nights and definitely every weekend, and they were far from wealthy.

Oh and by the way the greedy elite class, whose life is virtually one long vacation will be telling you what to do. They're getting rich and you'll never have a chance to be like them because they've got the money, they got the power and they'll see to it that you never get a chance."

The answer to that has to be, a rock smashed through a window. Smash it, grab it, and burn it!

Which hurts the elite class? Come now. I thought you said youth were so smart today. All this does is hurt the insurance companies, which then raise their rates to make up for the loss, which then hurts all of us through those higher rates. It certainly doesn't hurt 'the elites'.

[Sir Bandelot]

Which hurts the elite class?

Did I say it does

[Bonam]

That criticism is mainly directed at authority, not youth.

Today we are just beginning to understand the meaning of the rights of the individual, vs. the rights of the collective. The rights of the individual are precious because the person is temporal, while the collective lasts "forever". The corporation never dies, therefore all things that it amasses over time it can keep forever and its power constantly increases. While we human beings only have a short time and will soon cease to be. So the rights of the individual must be regarded as supreme. Simply put, the corporation can wait. But we are not at the point yet where we regard people as precious.

I'm talking about how young people instinctively know what's coming for them. They might look to their docile burned out parents who've spent the majority of their life working in a job that has no direct meaning for them, other than to make some money that they get to spend supporting themselves to come back another day, and an occasional brief "vacation".

Or they might look to their parents whose houses went up in value ten times since they bought them. Their parents who grew up when you couldn't even call someone unless they were at home. Their parents who were subject to mandatory military service and got sent off to hellholes like Vietnam. And then they might realize how infinitely better their own lives are now, and how their parents, too, have lived through to much better times.

Youth are smarter now than they've ever been. By that I mean, they know about the news. They have a bleak outlook on the system which is obviously corrupt and unfair.

What is so obviously corrupt and unfair about it?

There was a report just yesterday, 'assholes on the job get more pay'... what is that saying about our workplace, where we spend most of our days?

An average person spends about 40 hours per week in the workplace, that's less than 1/4 of the 168 hours of time that comprises every week. Furthermore, most people only work about 40-50 years out of an 80+ year timespan. You only spend 10-15% of your life at work. As for "assholes get more pay"... yeah I can imagine that was a real scientific and concrete study, haha!

It's not about recognizing the value of individual human beings, but a place where meanness, deception and pettiness rule the day. That is the personality that succeeds.

When was the last time that meanness, deception, and pettiness got the oil out of the ground, got a car built, got a building planned, a computer designed, software coded, crops grown? No, what succeeds is ingenuity and hard work. If you're in a workplace where success is based not on these things but on "meanness", you're working a stupid job is all.

From a youthful perspective: "You've had a fun life so far little Johnny, now it's time to get in your CAGE! By the time you get out you'll be old, burned out, docile, like your mom and dad. Your life will be a complete waste of time. Oh and by the way the greedy elite class, whose life is virtually one long vacation will be telling you what to do. They're getting rich and you'll never have a chance to be like them because they've got the money, they got the power and they'll see to it that you never get a chance."

Oh noes! It's a conspiracy! Evil rich guy is trying to keep you down. This is BS. Successful people have much more interesting things to spend their time on than trying to keep some strangers from achieving success.

The answer to that has to be, a rock smashed through a window. Smash it, grab it, and burn it!

Or you could get your ass of the street and actually achieve something meaningful.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Bonam

[Sir Bandelot]

Bonam, I don't necessarily say they are right. It's about perception. You are correct that compared to previous generations and other places in the world, like 3rd world countries even our poor live fairly well.

But most people follow the example set by their parents and by our leaders. We may rebel against authority and the notion that we must eventually be indoctrinated into the system, but in the end we become like those we have learned from. Most do. Some are strong minded enough to rise above their own misfortune and make something better out of their life. When authority figures themselves commit the crimes, it gets difficult to be motivated to be a good citizen. Especially when times are tough and we are asked to tighten our belts, make personal sacrifices for the greater good. People know that the rich continue making more money now than ever before, despite the economic hard times. People know about the bailouts.

In this thread I also said that I don't believe that things are worse now than before, in terms of crime but that people have become more aware of it.

->An average person spends about 40 hours per week in the workplace, that's less than 1/4 of the 168 hours of time that comprises every week.

In terms of how much time a person has to spend with their family or friends, vs. how much time they spend committed to working, sleep time doesn't count. Neither does time spent getting ready to go to work or coming home. Once people get home they must deal with the needs of their household. The actual amount of quality time that parents can spend raising their kids and paying attention to them is pretty small. At least, that is the common culture in big cities.

->No, what succeeds is ingenuity and hard work. If you're in a workplace where success is based not on these things but on "meanness", you're working a stupid job is all.

I wish it were true. Your youthful idealism is shining through here. Ever worked in a union shop, where people are demoralized? Where there is resentment if anyone does something, because then it might be expected of others to do the same? Ever worked for PhD's or doctors, and you don't have a comparable degree, but you're smarter than most of them? Jealousy. Resentment. It's not uncommon for managers to feel threatened by an employee who is smarter than them. You can'tkeep showing people how to do things better, and not encounter hostility.

->Successful people have much more interesting things to spend their time on than trying to keep some strangers from achieving success.

Wrong!

In a competitive world, if my effort to achieve success threatens your already established success, you will feel compelled to do something about it. I'm not talking about healthy competition, I'm talking about the need to CONTROL. And frequently those who are in power are the ones who feel a strong need to be maintain control.

-> Or you could get your ass of the street and actually achieve something meaningful.

No disagreement, but when people are rioting out of a sense of futility, it's irrational. They don't have determination for something better. They've given up on hope. What they do is violent and pointless, but feels good. Suggest you don't go there and try to make these arguments with them.

[Bonam]

Bonam, I don't necessarily say they are right. It's about perception. You are correct that compared to previous generations and other places in the world, like 3rd world countries even our poor live fairly well.

Yes, and it only keeps getting better. The main driver is technological progress.

But most people follow the example set by their parents and by our leaders. We may rebel against authority and the notion that we must eventually be indoctrinated into the system, but in the end we become like those we have learned from. Most do. Some are strong minded enough to rise above their own misfortune and make something better out of their life. When authority figures themselves commit the crimes, it gets difficult to be motivated to be a good citizen.

Really? When some politician's scandal comes out in the news you lose motivation to be a "good citizen". When some republican senator cheats on his wife, you go out and cheat on yours too since that's the way "authority figures" do it? I think you vastly overstate the degree to which people view our nincompoop politicians as some kind of role models. They aren't at all.

Especially when times are tough and we are asked to tighten our belts, make personal sacrifices for the greater good. People know that the rich continue making more money now than ever before, despite the economic hard times. People know about the bailouts.

Who asks you to make personal sacrifices for the greater good?

->An average person spends about 40 hours per week in the workplace, that's less than 1/4 of the 168 hours of time that comprises every week.

In terms of how much time a person has to spend with their family or friends, vs. how much time they spend committed to working, sleep time doesn't count.

This might be news to some, but a lot of people spend their sleep time with a certain member of their family

Neither does time spent getting ready to go to work or coming home. Once people get home they must deal with the needs of their household. The actual amount of quality time that parents can spend raising their kids and paying attention to them is pretty small. At least, that is the common culture in big cities.

Ok, but that's hardly the fault of one's employer or the government. Rioting because you have to take time to shower, eat, and get dressed in the morning doesn't make much sense to me.

->No, what succeeds is ingenuity and hard work. If you're in a workplace where success is based not on these things but on "meanness", you're working a stupid job is all.

I wish it were true. Your youthful idealism is shining through here. Ever worked in a union shop, where people are demoralized? Where there is resentment if anyone does something, because then it might be expected of others to do the same?

I've worked in unionized government jobs, yes. While the particular places I worked didn't have the atmosphere you describe, people certainly didn't do nearly as much as they could if they were seeking to be productive. Anyway, my opinion on unions is well known. It sounds like you agree with my assessment, that not much work gets done in such an atmosphere.

Ever worked for PhD's or doctors, and you don't have a comparable degree, but you're smarter than most of them? Jealousy. Resentment. It's not uncommon for managers to feel threatened by an employee who is smarter than them. You can'tkeep showing people how to do things better, and not encounter hostility.

The only PhDs I've worked for are pretty damn smart. Actually, the startup I work at, all 4 of us that are there full time have PhDs. I'm the lowest down the chain though, having just finished mine recently. When I have come up with designs/suggestions that actually made things better, they were met with great enthusiasm. "Yes! Do that!". Perhaps that is a characteristic of small and agile business, while bigger companies are more entrenched in a rigid hierarchy.

->Successful people have much more interesting things to spend their time on than trying to keep some strangers from achieving success.

Wrong!

In a competitive world, if my effort to achieve success threatens your already established success, you will feel compelled to do something about it. I'm not talking about healthy competition, I'm talking about the need to CONTROL. And frequently those who are in power are the ones who feel a strong need to be maintain control.

No, this is only true in zero sum situations. If I am successful and am raking in cash by selling some kind of product or service, I only become even more successful if other people prosper and are able to afford it and buy it. Now, in zero sum situations like trading options or futures on the markets, sure, this is true, and traders seek to outmaneuver other traders. But our economy as a whole is not a zero sum game, it is (most of the time) in a state of growth. There are always opportunities for more people to succeed, while only complementing the success of those who are already established. There is competition too of course, as well as actors that seek to maintain control, that's all part of the process.

But realistically, if you are in a position to threaten the success of someone that is part of this rich elite that you speak of, you are already a success yourself. If your business is in direct competition with another business that feels threatened by you, you have done well for yourself. And most likely what they'll do to stop the competition is buy you out, a situation in which you can make plenty of money.

No one feels threatened by a mere middle class employee, and no one is going to try to grind you down to safeguard their position. Unless you've just met an exceptional jerk or have gone out of your way to make an enemy.

-> Or you could get your ass of the street and actually achieve something meaningful.

No disagreement, but when people are rioting out of a sense of futility, it's irrational. They don't have determination for something better. They've given up on hope. What they do is violent and pointless, but feels good. Suggest you don't go there and try to make these arguments with them.

Yeah cause life in Britain is so horrible, so hopeless, so futile. Not. And no, I won't be wasting my time trying to reason with a mob. I have better and more interesting things to do.

Your youthful idealism is shining through here.

I don't think I'm much of an idealist. I realize that reality is cold and harsh. Every success you wish to attain, you must fight for tooth and nail. No one will serve it up to you on a silver platter. The idealists are those who think they are entitled to something without working for it.

I worked hard through my undergrad and grad school, finished it, and ended up with an exciting and interesting job. Every single other person I know that graduated from the same program is also in a similar position, all essentially in their dream jobs, except one guy who is still interviewing. Two are engineers at Boeing, one designs jet engines at GE, one works at a space startup that makes space robotics, one is a numerical analyst at a plasma physics research company, one is designing mathematical algorithms for Wolframs, a few others. All these jobs are being created in the midst of a supposed "recession". In fact, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of job postings in these technical fields. The companies can't fill out immigrant applications fast enough to bring in professionals from Russia, India, China, and elsewhere, and they hire just about every qualified American that applies. That doesn't include high school dropouts and slackers that throw bricks around in the streets. Nor does it include people who got useless liberal arts degrees cause they thought it was fun. It was far from an easy path, it was often extremely difficult. People who didn't bother should not expect the same rewards.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Bonam

[Sir Bandelot]

When some politician's scandal comes out in the news you lose motivation to be a "good citizen".

Some might. The real problem occurs when they are allowed to get away with it.

I worked hard through my undergrad and grad school, finished it, and ended up with an exciting and interesting job. Every single other person I know that graduated from the same program is also in a similar position, all essentially in their dream jobs, except one guy who is still interviewing. Two are engineers at Boeing, one designs jet engines at GE, one works at a space startup that makes space robotics, one is a numerical analyst at a plasma physics research company, one is designing mathematical algorithms for Wolframs, a few others. All these jobs are being created in the midst of a supposed "recession". In fact, there are thousands if not tens of thousands of job postings in these technical fields. The companies can't fill out immigrant applications fast enough to bring in professionals from Russia, India, China, and elsewhere, and they hire just about every qualified American that applies. That doesn't include high school dropouts and slackers that throw bricks around in the streets. Nor does it include people who got useless liberal arts degrees cause they thought it was fun. It was far from an easy path, it was often extremely difficult. People who didn't bother should not expect the same rewards.

bonam, you sound like you are smart and will have a successful future. In that light, it's little wonder you don't agree with and can't relate to those who don't have your gifts and opportunities.

I hope you will appreciate that not everyone can be geniuses and get paid 6 figures. Someone still needs to sweep the floor and clean the bathroom. If no one's willing to do that, you're soon up to your knees in shit. Don't forget the value of the little people.

[Bonam]

I hope you will appreciate that not everyone can be geniuses and get paid 6 figures. Someone still needs to sweep the floor and clean the bathroom. If no one's willing to do that, you're soon up to your knees in shit. Don't forget the value of the little people.

Kinda. I could make a cleaning robot to sweep the floors and clean the bathrooms if we couldn't find a janitor ;p But yes, I agree, people in all kinds of jobs have value, and deserve respect. Everyone has different levels of skills and abilities and, so long as they strive to make the most of them, that is all that can be asked of them. Those that are out there breaking store windows, however, are a different story. They are not the "little people" who are cleaning the bathroom. They are the people making the mess which the little people then have to clean.

[Sir Bandelot]

I could make a cleaning robot to sweep the floors and clean the bathrooms if we couldn't find a janitor ;p

It's a lot of work to get it right when you could just use a person.

Besides, you wouldn't want to have your name associated with toilet technology, would you? Think of poor Thomas Crapper.

Then people might say, "I got to go take a Bonam..."

[Bonam]

It's a lot of work to get it right when you could just use a person.

Besides, you wouldn't want to have your name associated with toilet technology, would you? Think of poor Thomas Crapper.

Then people might say, "I got to go take a Bonam..."

Haha, long as they used Bonam and not my real name that'd be fine Cleaning robots have pros and cons. A janitor has to be paid by the hour, the robot just has its initial capital cost and any needed maintenance (electricity costs are negligible). A hallway cleaning/sweeping robot is relatively straightforward and I've already seen those in use. One that reliably and properly cleans a bathroom would be much more complex, but still doable.

Anyway... it's not really "a lot of work" compared to hiring a person. The work of designing the robot design need only be done once, as opposed to janitorial work which is essentially infinite. Besides, designing a robot is much more interesting work than cleaning a bathroom. Manufacturing the robot would itself be an automated process. The amount of human work that would have to be done would be greatly reduced.

[Shwa]

Tony Blair wades in...

Tony Blair says riots not symptom of moral decline

LONDON — Former Prime Minister Tony Blair on Sunday rejected the British government’s claim that this month’s riots were caused by the country’s moral decline, and said talk of “broken Britain” would unfairly tarnish the nation’s reputation.

Prime Minister David Cameron has blamed Britain’s “slow-motion moral collapse” for the riots which raged for four nights in London and other English cities.

Blair wrote in The Observer newspaper that the violence was not caused by social rot, but by “alienated, disaffected youth,” who are found in most developed nations.

“The key is to understand that they aren’t symptomatic of society at large,” Blair wrote, adding that “Britain as a whole is not in the grip of some general ‘moral decline.’

I think the key to which view prevails will be determined in the long run.