How Will Quebec React to Parliament Near-Shutout?

[Evening Star]

In grey areas such as Ottawa, I suppose we could be nice and provide bilingual services there too. But where one language clearly dominates, bilingualism ought not be mandatory.

The francophone population in Ottawa (especially if you include the whole Natl Capital Region) is certainly significant enough to warrant bilingual services in any circumstance, even if only on the grounds of good customer service.

[Benz]

Yes. I agree. Canada would get "along quite well with one", albeit with bi-lingual accomodations, maybe French first, in Quebec. This worked well prior to 1974, when language-based bigotry started in Quebec on an official basis (such bigotry started earlier on an unofficial basis).

And how do you call the anti-french rule that were in Manitoba from 1890 to 1985? Or when the french in PEI and Ns couldn't go into french schools? Creating assimilation rates upto 70%.

french language and culture is almost dead outside Québec because of that. Québec is just trying to protect what is left of french in an anglo sea.

You only do projection.

[Benz]

One of the contributing reasons for the fall of the Bloc has gone mostly uncovered in the media. That is.....the Harper government gave Duceppe very little of substance to complain about. Harper respects Provincial juristictions - much more so than the paternalistic approach of Liberal governments - which served to inflame Quebec. Quebec has always wanted to do things their way - Healthcare, Education, Language.....these are all Provincial juristictions and Harper is OK with just "staying out of their way". In addition, Harper recognized Quebec as a Nation within a united Canada.

This is true. However, the Québécois didn't vote for him because Québec is asking to repeair the constitution. Something Harper doesn't want to do. But indeed, the Bloc didn't have as much meat as in the previous elections.

He's also negotiating to offset their past harmonization of the GST.

The Québécois are not that stupid. We will see when it happens. Québec has been waiting for over a decade now.

Duceppe really had nothing to complain about and when all is said and done, that's what Quebec is entitled to - their fair share of money to spread as they see fit within the envelopes of Provincial Juristiction.

Not at all. Otherwise we would have voted conservatives. There is alot to complain about. But not as much as back when the liberals were in power. The main reason why the Bloc didn't win this time is, whether the Bloc is in or not, it doesn't change anything. So the Québécois are trying something else for change. I cannot blame them.

Anyone who visits Quebec or has lived there knows that things are different. So.....with nothing to complain about - a hands-off Federal Government - what will Marois be able to sell with a sovereignty approach?

I repeat, because the status quo is no good and Harper isn't doing anything to improve the constitution.

A separate army? Trying to survive alone within an ocean of North American Anglophones? The tide has turned and will continue as long as the ROC can recognize Quebec's desire to be "different" and with the Bloc marginalized, the whining and pandering will start to recede.

Wanna bet?

[jbg]

french language and culture is almost dead outside Québec because of that. Québec is just trying to protect what is left of french in an anglo sea.

Having it your way would give Quebec young people exceedingly few opportunities. A great price to pay to provide care and comfort for the franco-leadership class.

[Benz]

Having it your way would give Quebec young people exceedingly few opportunities. A great price to pay to provide care and comfort for the franco-leadership class.

Explain?

[g_bambino]

In addition, Harper recognized Quebec as a Nation within a united Canada.

No he didn't. The House of Commons voted in favour of recognising the Québécois as a nation within a united Canada; the word "Québécois" was chosen for a very specific reason, namely that it doesn't have a singular definition, and so it can't be said for certain that Quebecers - and, by extension, Quebec - were said to be nation.

[g_bambino]

I repeat, because the status quo is no good and Harper isn't doing anything to improve the constitution.

Probably because almost nobody agrees with your nonsensical opinion of the constitution.

[jbg]

Having it your way would give Quebec young people exceedingly few opportunities. A great price to pay to provide care and comfort for the franco-leadership class.

Explain?

The young people of Quebec should have their country open to them. As a practical matter their command of English will be limited and they will be limited to Quebec. Quebec's economy is, at best, static. The English-speaking rest of North America, by contrast, is growing.

The main beneficiaries of these policies seem to be politicians who relish being large fish is a small pond, Quebec, than having to be small fish in the larger Canadian or North American pond.

The main beneficiaries, then, of niche politics are the niche leaders, not the striving people.

[Machjo]

The francophone population in Ottawa (especially if you include the whole Natl Capital Region) is certainly significant enough to warrant bilingual services in any circumstance, even if only on the grounds of good customer service.

Well, yes, I was thinking of the Ontario side of the border exclusively. You'd be surprised though when you travel to the outskirts of Gatineau how quickly English fades away. Some are barely functional in the language even just 50 miles from the Ontario border! And I would agree too that Federal services in Gatineau should need to be offered in French only, or again if we consider that Gatineau's downtown area does have residents who don't know French, maybe like Ottawa we could argue the case for a bilingual region.

But even if we consider the Capital region as falling within the bilingual territories, it would still save money compared to having French services in Victoria BC and English services in Roberval QC.

[Smallc]

Yes. I agree. Canada would get "along quite well with one",

You do understand that there is only one policy, right?

[Benz]

The young people of Quebec should have their country open to them.

Yes.

As a practical matter their command of English will be limited and they will be limited to Quebec.

Why?

Quebec's economy is, at best, static. The English-speaking rest of North America, by contrast, is growing.

Not really. You know very bad Québec's economy. Quebec is actually one of the best performers in the actual crisis.

The main beneficiaries of these policies seem to be politicians who relish being large fish is a small pond, Quebec, than having to be small fish in the larger Canadian or North American pond.

Youhoooo? Québec is already doing more business with its southern neighbor. So what are you talking about? The sovereignists are not protectionists. They rather tend to be liberals.

The main beneficiaries, then, of niche politics are the niche leaders, not the striving people.

You are presenting to me a fictive picture that has nothing to do with the reality. Did you know that the sovereignists were very much in favor of free trade before the first free trade agreement between USA and Canada took place?

[Machjo]

Have you ever been to Calgary? While it's not the global mix that

Toronto is, folks from all over have settled there. It has been a boomtown and a frontier for a good long while.

I've certainly done business in English in Quebec city, too, and once-unilingual friends have moved there.

This is a nation of in-clusion, not exclusion. While it burns my buttons to be smugly greeted in French first and preferentially in areas where weeks, months, even years could go by without encountering a French speaker, I value the confidence Canadians may have that they can deal with their government in the official language of their choice, whenever and wherever they have dealings with their government. $1.6B is a tiny price to pay for that.

(I've no doubt, though, that the universal service could be provided for much less money, if it is spent sensibly.)

I'm sorry, but should the onus not be on you to learn French if you intend to deal with local federal government offices in Queebc city? That's just a matter of respect for the local language. After all, If a Nunavummiut tried to get service in Inuktitut in Ottawa, he'd get answered in either English or French. And if he can speak neither, then tough for him. Why should Canadians of European descent get this 1.6B privilege that is not afforded to the indigenous peoples of this land? If they don't get such services, then neither should we. If I want service from a federal government office in Calgary, then the onus ought to be on me to learn English. In Quebec, French. And yes, in Iglulik, Inuktitut.

What applies to one ought to apply to tall. That's a basic principle of equality. And so, if Inuktitut services are not provided in Calgary and Quebec city, then neither should English in Quebec city and Iglulik or French in Calgary and Iglulik unless the local office wishes to do so and has the human resources to do so.

[Evening Star]

I grew up in Ottawa, actually. Even on the ON side, though, there is a really significant francophone population in the east end of the city.

Well, yes, I was thinking of the Ontario side of the border exclusively. You'd be surprised though when you travel to the outskirts of Gatineau how quickly English fades away. Some are barely functional in the language even just 50 miles from the Ontario border! And I would agree too that Federal services in Gatineau should need to be offered in French only, or again if we consider that Gatineau's downtown area does have residents who don't know French, maybe like Ottawa we could argue the case for a bilingual region.

But even if we consider the Capital region as falling within the bilingual territories, it would still save money compared to having French services in Victoria BC and English services in Roberval QC.

[fellowtraveller]

Not really. You know very bad Québec's economy. Quebec is actually one of the best performers in the actual crisis.

That is wonderful news. Now send back that $8 billion per year you don't need after all. The return address is : Edmonton, Alberta.

Thanks. Merci.

[Molly]

I'm sorry, but should the onus not be on you to learn French if you intend to deal with local federal government offices in Queebc city? That's just a matter of respect for the local language. After all, If a Nunavummiut tried to get service in Inuktitut in Ottawa, he'd get answered in either English or French. And if he can speak neither, then tough for him. Why should Canadians of European descent get this 1.6B privilege that is not afforded to the indigenous peoples of this land? If they don't get such services, then neither should we. If I want service from a federal government office in Calgary, then the onus ought to be on me to learn English. In Quebec, French. And yes, in Iglulik, Inuktitut.

What applies to one ought to apply to tall. That's a basic principle of equality. And so, if Inuktitut services are not provided in Calgary and Quebec city, then neither should English in Quebec city and Iglulik or French in Calgary and Iglulik unless the local office wishes to do so and has the human resources to do so.

Federal government is not 'local' ever- it is national- so the answer is a resounding "No, the onus should not be on you to learn another of English or French in order to deal with the federal government."

Inuktitut, on the other hand, is a very 'local' language, and not a national one.

Let's be very clear, though. This is not a 'European' advantage. There are MANY European countries in which English, French and Inuktitut are equally foreign.

If we are drifting into ad absurdum, though, the most cost-effective of all would likely be to outsource most of the civil service, and offer services only in the language of the lowest cost contractor, leaving the onus on citizens to learn... maybe Hindi, or Tagalog... or Mandarin.

[Benz]

That is wonderful news. Now send back that $8 billion per year you don't need after all. The return address is : Edmonton, Alberta.

Thanks. Merci.

Ok then, kill all the other federal programs where Québec doesn't get a single penny. Like the one giving money to the development of oil industry in Alberta.

And you think the whole 8B comes from your pocket? Québec didn't pay any tax?

Go on my friend. Kill all the federal programs at once and we will see.

[jbg]

That is wonderful news. Now send back that $8 billion per year you don't need after all. The return address is : Edmonton, Alberta.

Thanks. Merci.

Great point!!!

[Machjo]

Federal government is not 'local' ever- it is national- so the answer is a resounding "No, the onus should not be on you to learn another of English or French in order to deal with the federal government."

Inuktitut, on the other hand, is a very 'local' language, and not a national one.

Let's be very clear, though. This is not a 'European' advantage. There are MANY European countries in which English, French and Inuktitut are equally foreign.

If we are drifting into ad absurdum, though, the most cost-effective of all would likely be to outsource most of the civil service, and offer services only in the language of the lowest cost contractor, leaving the onus on citizens to learn... maybe Hindi, or Tagalog... or Mandarin.

English and French are national? You've never been to a Quebec city suburb, have you.

They are both regional languages, neither of which being truly national. In fact, we don't have any single national language, only regional languages.

[Machjo]

I grew up in Ottawa, actually. Even on the ON side, though, there is a really significant francophone population in the east end of the city.

I'm a francophone Ottawan myself, but so far I've met one French-speaking resident who did not know English.

[Evening Star]

Oh sure, francophone Ottawans usually do speak good English, no doubt.

[Molly]

English and French are national? You've never been to a Quebec city suburb, have you.

They are both regional languages, neither of which being truly national. In fact, we don't have any single national language, only regional languages.

Actually... um... yes, I have. Less than a month ago in fact.

...And found quite a lot more English spoken there than you'd find French spoken in my old home town that was, at one time, deemed 'bilingual' by the federal government.

[Machjo]

Actually... um... yes, I have. Less than a month ago in fact.

...And found quite a lot more English spoken there than you'd find French spoken in my old home town that was, at one time, deemed 'bilingual' by the federal government.

OK, to be fair I was addressing people in French. The first day there, out of curiosity I'd pretended not to know French and most people had a lot of time giving me directions. I quickly got bored with that game after a few tries and so switched to French. It may be that it was just luck of the draw that the ones I'd gotten didn't speak English. However, I'd found that everyone I'd met spoke French. So while English would be an asset for a federal public servant in Quebec city, it wouldn't be worthwhile making it compulsory.

In La Malbaie it was another matter. I'd met even high school teachers there who could not speak English. But technicalities aside, English is by no means spoken by all Canadians. I'd found people in Roberval who could not speak English either. On occasion I will pretend not to know French or English just to get a feel for the community, and have found in most of Quebec you can forget English.