palestine papers - israel's peacemakers unmasked

[Rue]

To be fair, Israel does draw great benefit from "emancipating" at risk Jews, since Israel has always been in need of more people, and, moreover, many of the Jewish immigrants from around the world were very productive people, contributing greatly to Israel, such as for example the 1989-91 exodus of Soviet Jews. From the perspective of some of those Jews, it was kind of a mixed bag. When my own family immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union, they soon concluded that it wasn't really much of an improvement: in place of antisemitism and economic instability, there was terrorism and mandatory military service. Not to mention the insufferable summer heat. Hence the next step in the immigration chain, Canada.

Meanwhile, Arab regimes have no need for more people, nor does a mostly uneducated and poor rabble of refugees have much to contribute.

I think what you said is a gross generalization but none the less keeping that in mind I too agree with what you are saying to a reasonable extent.

Egypt is overpopulated. So is the Gaza and many other Arab countries and when I say that I mean in their capacity to look after themselves. I also think Israel feels it to its benefit to continue to try bring in as many Jews as possible as Israeli citizens because of the Israelis leaving and because of the Palestinian population rate compared to the Israeli one and the fact that within pre 1967 Israel non Jewish Israelis if the population rates continue will out number Jews within the next 25 years making the terrorist threat a moot point.

For those that do not understand, its no utopia for Jews in Israel. They face high taxes, a constant threat, a world that hates them and millions of arm chair geniuses who claim to know what is good for them and think they are racist for wanting to be Jewish and not fear the state persecuting them and defining them as second class and instead enshrined to protect them from another holocaust, pogrom, mass ethnic cleansing, terrorism, anti-semitism and Bud.

The constant portrayal of Israel as this unfairly advantaged state is a crock foisted by the same people who suspend history and become selective over the mass expulsion of Jews from the Arab League of Nations, the Arab League's decision to try force a war to remove them and use Palestinians as pawns in that regard and the fact that the very same colonial powers that created and supported the Arab countries against Israel are part of a religious system that entrenched the thousands of years of persecution against Jews which forced them to seek universael emancipation.

It is the height of hippocracy for the nations of Europe or Arab world both replete with histories of persecuting Jews and having their own Christian and Muslim nations telling we Jews we can't have a nation and don't know our place.

You can take the supposition that a Jew's place is not in its own nation and stuff that condescending, patronizing and anti Jewish attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

Next person to lecture me on where my place is and how I am doomed has my face in their face and a reminder, I do know my place and its not as a subject of a Muslim or Christian sttae's discrimination.

As for Israelis who come to Canada, it is a great nation but you will find we Jews can't hide here anymore then we can in Israel. Our collective destiny is inter-related to the same battle for existence whether we like it or not.

The world will never let us forget that.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Its statements like the above that are the reason you get the responses you do. Your extreme language can do nothing but bring back extreme responses. Do you really expect a middle of the roader like me to bother to respond to you?

With extreme views like building more settlements and kicking out the rest of the Palestinians all under the guise of security and prosperity and absolutely necessary for the survival for Israel? Like what Bob writes in most of his posts?

Edited January 31, 2011 by GostHacked

[Bonam]

Next person to lecture me on where my place is and how I am doomed has my face in their face and a reminder, I do know my place and its not as a subject of a Muslim or Christian sttae's discrimination.

As for Israelis who come to Canada, it is a great nation but you will find we Jews can't hide here anymore then we can in Israel. Our collective destiny is inter-related to the same battle for existence whether we like it or not.

Agreed...

Edited January 31, 2011 by Bonam

[bud]

Its statements like the above that are the reason you get the responses you do. Your extreme language can do nothing but bring back extreme responses.

just to clarify, since you're unable to comprehend that my statement has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the state of israel, i am talking about israel's actions in the occupied territories.

stop playing the victim. israel has its state. something the world has accepted. the concern right now is israel's expansionism and their continuous violations of the palestinians' legitimate rights as humans.

so yeah, the time will be up soon for israel just like it happened in south africa to the apartheid regime.

[Bob]

With extreme views like building more settlements and kicking out the rest of the Palestinians all under the guise of security and prosperity and absolutely necessary for the survival for Israel? Like what Bob writes in most of his posts?

Why do I need to defend myself against comments I never made? I never advocated for "kicking out the rest of the Palestinians".

As far as settlements go, it depends on which settlements and areas you're talking about. Does "building more settlements" include existing settlements that need to grow? You need to be specific, because many settlements will never cease being a part of Israel. Also, many settlements and areas are essential to Israel, particularly to Jerusalem. Jerusalem, for the most part, has been growing organically since its reunification after 1967. Israel has not, and will not, restrict its natural needs to armistice lines of 1949 that are unworkable. If you knew what the land looked like and were familiar with the lines, perhaps you'd understand this. The reality is that the "1967 borders" (and I'm speaking only with respect to how they affect Jerusalem) are no longer relevant, were and always will remain indefensible, and are unworkable in every other municipal and national need you can imagine. You can parrot the "settlement" talk all you want, but you don't understand the layout of this land or the 1949 armistice and why they're unacceptable, irrelevant, and never to be seen again.

[Bob]

just to clarify, since you're unable to comprehend that my statement has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the state of israel, i am talking about israel's actions in the occupied territories.

stop playing the victim. israel has its state. something the world has accepted. the concern right now is israel's expansionism and their continuous violations of the palestinians' legitimate rights as humans.

so yeah, the time will be up soon for israel just like it happened in south africa to the apartheid regime.

Aside from the typical red-herring/rhetoric of South Africa that is so typical from you, I'll reiterate something from my previous post to GostHacked. The 1949 armistice lines (referred to by some as the "1967 borders") are long gone. Everyone knows we will not see them again. Yes, if you value UN resolution 242 you can use these armistice lines as some sort of frame of reference or baseline for negotiations (whatever that means). The reality is that these are borders Israel cannot and will not accept, nevermind the fact that they never were borders in the first place. The 1949 armistice lines were just that, armistice lines - NOT borders. Even if you want to ignore the legalities defining the differences between armistice line and borders, and write off this entire issue as semantics, there is no ignoring practical impossibilities preventing the surrender of our lands to our enemies in the name of "peace". I'll expand on these impossibilities later, and I've already done it several times in this thread over the past little while.

Moreover, the Arabs have forfeited their rights to much of those lands because they used them as a front against Israel in three wars. We're not going to relinquish territory, forcefully remove two hundred and fifty thousands Jews, surrender billions of dollars of property, and surrender economically, socially, and militarily essential to those who actively try to destroy us because people like you tell us the land doesn't belong to us. There's no crying over spilled milk. When the land was in their hands for twenty years they used it launch attacks against us, and not towards building their independence. They've lost all trust to have sensitive lands (primarily the "settlements" near and around Jerusalem), and we're not about to accept a security guarantee that isn't worth the paper it's written on written by UN pencil-pushers.

Put simply, if you use land as a base of operations from which to carry our murders and terrorism against us, we're going to take that land away from you because your control of it presents a clear and present danger to us. Sensitive security areas near our main population centres (primarily Jerusalem) simply will not be relinquished to the Arabs - at least not with legitimate security arrangements to protect us.