Natives have right too says Canada

[Battletoads]

They still have rights.

They should have the same rights as any other Canadian.

a shocking idea, I known.

[Saipan]

They still have rights.

Like everyone else.

[Shwa]

Like everyone else.

They do.

[Battletoads]

They do.

Seems they have more.

[Shwa]

Seems they have more.

Than who?

[Battletoads]

Than who?

Canadians

[charter.rights]

They should have the same rights as any other Canadian.

a shocking idea, I known.

That might be true if they were Canadians, but they are not. They are First Nations and there has never been a case where they have capitulated to the Crown of Canada.

And in fact the rights protected under Section 25 and Section 35 of the Charter are derived from the fact that they are independent peoples and the Crown made promises that the occupation of their lands by settlers would not interfere in their own sovereign and autonomous rights as independent nations.

Edited February 4, 2011 by charter.rights

[Battletoads]

That might be true if they were Canadians, but they are not. They are First Nations and there has never been a case where they have capitulated to the Crown of Canada.

And in fact the rights protected under Section 25 and Section 35 of the Charter are derived from the fact that they are independent peoples and the Crown made promises that the occupation of their lands by settlers would not interfere in their own sovereign and autonomous rights as independent nations.

It also use to be that they got shipped off to residential schools. Just because something is doesn't mean it should stay as it is.

[charter.rights]

It also use to be that they got shipped off to residential schools. Just because something is doesn't mean it should stay as it is.

You can no more make Natives into Canadians than you can make Americans Canadian. Native people are not subject to the laws of Canada in the same way we are because of the Royal Proclamation 1763 and the Treaties. They have no reason to change. The Canadian system as it is applied on their reserves is far more harmful and corrupt than their own systems of government.

And residential schools did not succeed in what they were designed to do.....

[Battletoads]

You can no more make Natives into Canadians than you can make Americans Canadian. Native people are not subject to the laws of Canada in the same way we are because of the Royal Proclamation 1763 and the Treaties. They have no reason to change. The Canadian system as it is applied on their reserves is far more harmful and corrupt than their own systems of government.

And residential schools did not succeed in what they were designed to do.....

1763 eh? Royal eh? So what? That means about shit all in 2011?

And I don't know how you can get more corrupt than the native system, chiefs earning 6 figures while people on their reserves live in squalor.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Battletoads

[Saipan]

That might be true if they were Canadians, but they are not.

And that's why they have no right to Canadian taxpayer money. What they owe Canada amounts to billions now.

[charter.rights]

1763 eh? Royal eh? So what? That means about shit all in 2011?

And I don't know how you can get more corrupt than the native system, chiefs earning 6 figures while people on their reserves live in squalor.

The Royal Proclamation 1763 is included in the Charter as a definition of aboriginal rights.

The native system that you see Chiefs getting 6 figure incomes is actually the Indian Act Band system invented by Canadians and fashioned after our own municipal systems. It is corrupt because Canadian governance systems are inherently corrupt and protect that corruption from democratic scrutiny.

On the other hand taking the Haudenosaunee - Six Nations - Confederacy as example they have a constitutional right to recall any Chief that is not abiding by the community's direction on any matter. The assembly itself can eject any Chief not meeting decorum or protocol and election is by direct appointment by smaller community based clans, of which the Clan Mother holds title for. In community debate everyone has a voice and is given the opportunity to be heard - even children - and no Chief can take advantage of the system because everyone (including different clans) scrutinize and must agree with his political actions before they move forward.

In our own system we vote once and have no way to scrutinize and recall our politicians. Just like Band elected Chiefs our politicians and their bureaucrats do as they please until the next election. They spend money recklessly and only have to offer excuses for account. They travel and expense on our dime, and their commitment to the electorate only goes as far as they need to get some votes, to win over the other corrupt candidates looking for the same payola.

[charter.rights]

And that's why they have no right to Canadian taxpayer money. What they owe Canada amounts to billions now.

It isn't Canadian taxpayer money. It is actually taxpayer debt. From the time we are born we owe about $30,000 or $40,000 each just for the national debt. Add to that the fact that we First Nations trusts another $2 trillion or more and that debt from birth likely rises to about $100,000.

On top of the trillions we owe those First Nations trusts accounts we haven't even paid for most of the land we use in Canada. We owe First Nations far more than we are actually paying. And BTW...your house and workplace are very likely on that land never paid for and never surrendered. Your personal debt may be much higher.

[Shwa]

Canadians

Oh I see now. They have more rights than Canadians. Well how true is that?

Here is a test you can try: go into an Inco mine with your shovel and hard hat and start digging for your treasure. When the police haul you off for trespassing, argue with them that you - as a Canadian -have the same rights as Inco.

The difference being is that Inco signed a contract with the government for mineral rights. The Natives signed contracts too.

But essentially, they have the same rights as you or I.

[Esq]

It isn't Canadian taxpayer money. It is actually taxpayer debt. From the time we are born we owe about $30,000 or $40,000 each just for the national debt. Add to that the fact that we First Nations trusts another $2 trillion or more and that debt from birth likely rises to about $100,000.

On top of the trillions we owe those First Nations trusts accounts we haven't even paid for most of the land we use in Canada. We owe First Nations far more than we are actually paying. And BTW...your house and workplace are very likely on that land never paid for and never surrendered. Your personal debt may be much higher.

This is a false dichotomy or rather simply false.

The federal debt is about 15000-20000 per capita (although this is due to rise about 25% from 2006 to whenever the conservatives stop deficit spending.) Last I checked about 250 billion dollars was deficit spent over this period (that is subtraction of surpluses, and over spending - including funding allocated for future periods such as through bonds with future return dates)

(potentially more than 250 billion actually).

You could see this figure right to perhaps $25000 to $30,000.

The provincial debt varies by province.

The municipal debt varies by municipality. (I should note that the stiulus plan was only about 1/3rd of the debt that was lumped onto municipalities and provinces (those that acutally didn't have money to spend but had to spend to get the federal money - in otherwords the 50 billion in action plan dollars resulted in 100 billion to the provinces and municipalities in potential debt (adding 100 billion or less in debt to provinces.. and I think almost all provinces are in debt..)

Actionplan resulted in an additional $4000 in debt for everyone. If you put that in terms of employing even 1 in 32 people 30% of the unemployed works out $130,000 for each person. For 100% of the unemployed or 10% it works out to salaries of around $40,000 for every unemployed person in Canada. This of course didn't happen and this wealth was concentrated. and some small projects happened, that I havn't seen the result of.

That is all there is to it.

there is the problem however of the rate of aboriginal increase to non aboriginal increase in treaty payment ratio. So if canada's non aboriginal population increases faster than the aboriginal population the treaty obligation decreases on a per capita basis.

This is why attacking the debt sooner rather than later is important --- debt that can't be paid off like in the US becomes redundant and systematic.

It is vital to remove the debt now.. then end deficit spending and bond and t note issuing to make Canada debt free and fiscally responsible - something governments since the turn of the last century havn't been able to get a grasp on.

It is colouring -- we can borrow your money or we can take your money?

Well if you have to take more money to borrow it, why don't you just take it in the first place?

But why take it if you can make it.

That is the problem.. governemt over the last 100 years have been theives. We need makers not takers.

Thieves and petty thugs. We need responsible government not corrupt government.

No Tax is good tax.

(It is true it could be up to 100,000 + but for the federal forum we ought to stick to generalized and federal debt not nostaligic debt)

It could be ben up above 100k though, but this isn't by birth.. since only nationality and citizenship are involved.. not residence (that is provincial and (and municipal - but municipalities are provincial incorporations - provinces are crowns thus persons and debt holders)

An emerging problem is though that Canada no longer recognizes british subject status.

Making the original treaties issued. The treaties are actually inert with the current federal government.

This obtained via two questions to CIC on commonwealth citizenship and british subject status.

Since neither of these are seen as tied to a "country".

In this respect Canadians are not british subjects. - even if they are commonwealth citizens - this a completely contradictory stance to the notion of commonwealth citizenship as a replacement for british subject status.

The governments current view however seems illegal and contradictory.

For instance

Enfranchisement simply removed all distinctions between the legal rights and liabilities of Indians and those of other British subjects."

But british subjects are no longer a seperate legal class in terms of being tied to a country.

"A country is a geographical region considered to be the physical territory of a sovereign state"

Yet british subject status no longer is seen as tied to a country.

Essentially the federal government doesn't see treaty as sovereign between two soveregin states.. that is the view of the current government and jason kenney.

Essentially all treaty has been supra vires upsurped by the federal government and the sovereignties have been subverted.

Meaning treaty is just a show as far as the current federal government is concerned not legal.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Esq

[Battletoads]

It isn't Canadian taxpayer money. It is actually taxpayer debt. From the time we are born we owe about $30,000 or $40,000 each just for the national debt. Add to that the fact that we First Nations trusts another $2 trillion or more and that debt from birth likely rises to about $100,000.

On top of the trillions we owe those First Nations trusts accounts we haven't even paid for most of the land we use in Canada. We owe First Nations far more than we are actually paying. And BTW...your house and workplace are very likely on that land never paid for and never surrendered. Your personal debt may be much higher.

We owe them exactly nothing.

[charter.rights]

We owe them exactly nothing.

Try again.

The federal government hold trust accounts belonging to First Nations that exceed $2 trillion. The Six Nation trust account amounts to over $1 trillion by itself and goes back with compounded interests to about 1701. That is the legal obligation we have to First Nations and the Supreme Court has made it clear it can't just disappear because we don't want to pay it.

It is unlikely that we can ever pay it back. So in the modern negotiations underway with a number of First Nations the suggestion is to create perpetual care agreements - modern treaties that will provide free medical, free education and a yearly transfer (from the interests alone) forever - non-expiring.

So you can go stick your head in the sand all you want. We owe it and native people are entitled to it.

[g_bambino]

1763 eh? Royal eh? So what? That means about shit all in 2011?

No, it means quite a lot, given that the Royal Proclamation of 1763 is a part of Canada's constitution. The only thing is, our friend CR is clueless about what the document actually says; he prefers to discard the parts that work against his beleifs.

[g_bambino]

Essentially the federal government doesn't see treaty as sovereign between two soveregin states.. that is the view of the current government and jason kenney.

Essentially all treaty has been supra vires upsurped by the federal government and the sovereignties have been subverted.

Meaning treaty is just a show as far as the current federal government is concerned not legal.

I couldn't follow your explanation leading up to the above conclusions. For some 300 years, the Crown - whether that be the British Crown or, later, the Canadian Crown - has almost always operated on the advice of ministers - those at Westminster before Canada's legislative independence and subsequently those in Ottawa. It thus follows that there was no usurpation of anything by the federal Cabinet; merely the transfer of responsibility from London as a consequence of the establishment of Canada's full sovereignty from Britain.

[Saipan]

It isn't Canadian taxpayer money. It is actually taxpayer debt. From the time we are born we owe about $30,000 or $40,000 each just for the national debt. Add to that the fact that we First Nations trusts another $2 trillion or more and that debt from birth likely rises to about $100,000.

Now imagine how much does Cro-Magnon owe to Neanderthals adding all interest

[charter.rights]

Now imagine how much does Cro-Magnon owe to Neanderthals adding all interest

Sure. In other words how much do you owe your mother.

[Shwa]

Sure. In other words how much do you owe your mother.

[Saipan]

Glad the debate is going somewhere.