Red Cross: Israel's Gaza blockade breaks international law

[Bob]

You need to realize that Israel, or any other country cannot acquire title to territory by conquest. It's a fundamental rule of international law which Israel and almost all other countries are signatory to.

Resolution 242 clears any misconception on whether or not Israel has a right to acquire land by war.

Good job ignoring context, again - as Israel has repeatedly been attacked on its border, the expansion of its military control keeps the enemy precious kilometres further from its major population centres.

You original post is still full of lies and inaccuracies and missing context. I cannot fathom why you lie so much to favour Hamas, the former PLO, PA, and other sworn enemies of Israel and the Jewish people. What in the world is wrong with you?

[naomiglover]

Here is something else you should familiarize yourself with, which I hope will prevent you from posting misinformation in the future:

Jewish Virtual Library

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators

In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization

[M.Dancer]

Here is something else you should familiarize yourself with, which I hope will prevent you from posting misinformation in the future:

Jewish Virtual Library

September 9, 1993

What Bob said was it was never implemented...if you can show it was now is the time. He also said it was never adopted by Hamas...same thing...

[Jack Weber]

What Bob said was it was never implemented...if you can show it was now is the time. He also said it was never adopted by Hamas...same thing...

One of the reasons it was never implemented was that Rabin was assassinated by a right wing,unhinged,Zionist zealot..

Another reason was that everything at Oslo was pretty much rejected by the Palestinians...

Sounds like a lot of stupidity on all sides...

Edited June 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Bob]

That means nothing when immediately after the failure at Oslo there was a wave of suicide bombings and other terrorism against Israel.

Interestingly, even Wikipedia lies about this by stating that the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist by citing an LA times article, rather than simply examining the language of 242 which promised recognition of Israel contingent on unacceptable requirements.

Although that's an interesting letter which I never read before (although it's mentioned in books I've read, I think), it doesn't override the formal and public agreements which never bore fruit - and NEVER recognized Israel.

Also, please provide proof that the PLO charter actually was amended to remove the clauses that reject Israel's right to exist and promote terrorism. This is clearly yet another of Arafat's duplicity, saying one thing and doing another. The PLO charter was never amended, and terrorism ensued after Oslo's failure.

Again, why are you so passionate about lying in order to defend the Palestinian cause? What is wrong with you?

Edited June 16, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

naomiglover - I should've known better than to assume you were going to make a sincere effort at being honest in this discussion. You're grasping at straws (and dropping all important context, which you're ignorant of) trying to prove Israel's responsibility for the conflict and violence. It's pathetic to watch how hard you try to prove that there were (and are) sincere Palestinian moves towards real peace and reconciliation. The fact remains that Palestinians, in all manifestations of their leadership(s), have never recognized Israel's existence as a Jewish state, have never reconciled themselves to Jewish self-determination, and have never renounced terrorism. Those things must be changed if there is to be any hope for peace.

[Jack Weber]

That means nothing when immediately after the failure at Oslo there was a wave of suicide bombings and other terrorism against Israel in the context of the intifada.

Interestingly, even Wikipedia lies about this by stating that the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist by citing an LA times article, rather than simply examining the language of 242 which promised recognition of Israel contingent on unacceptable requirements.

Although that's an interesting letter which I never read before (although it's mentioned in books I've read, I think), it doesn't override the formal and public agreements which never bore fruit.

Also, please provide proof that the PLO charter actually was amended to remove the clauses that reject Israel's right to exist and promote terrorism. This is clearly yet another of Arafat's duplicity, saying one thing and doing another.

Again, why are you so passionate about lying in order to defend the Palestinian cause? What is wrong with you?

This is my problem with the Palestinians...

Whenever they seem to be given a wonderful chance at peace with Israel,they choose to derail the process,and go the other direction.They did this after Oslo,by rejecting the best offer they will ever get.They did this after the Israeli's left Gaza,and left viable businesses,only to be destroyed by people who obviously did'nt care about economic opportunity.

Then they choose Hamas to represent them...

[naomiglover]

What Bob said was it was never implemented...if you can show it was now is the time. He also said it was never adopted by Hamas...same thing...

No kidding that it was not implemented. Of course Israel has not recognized resolution 242, which is international law.

All this talk about others not accepting the state of Israel, which is a condition of 242 and other resolutions following it, when Israel does not even recognize the resolution and international law.

Edited June 16, 2010 by naomiglover

[Bob]

This is my problem with the Palestinians...

Whenever they seem to be given a wonderful chance at peace with Israel,they choose to derail the process,and go the other direction.They did this after Oslo,by rejecting the best offer they will ever get.They did this after the Israeli's left Gaza,and left viable businesses,only to be destroyed by people who obviously did'nt care about economic opportunity.

Then they choose Hamas to represent them...

They're not ready for statehood. In time they may liberalize, but not now. As long as their priority is murdering Jews, they cannot be given independence in order to better facilitate their intentions.

[Bob]

No kidding that it was not implemented. Of course Israel has not recognized resolution 242, which is international law.

All this talk about others not accepting the state of Israel, which is a condition of 242 and other resolutions following it, when Israel does not even recognize the resolution and international law.

You fool, 242 is subjective in nature. Both parties signed 242 (by extension "recognizing" it), but disagree on how it's to be implemented. How can you not know this and pretend to know the first thing about international law or this conflict? The USA sees 242 as a frame-of-reference towards its flawed proposal of a "two-state solution", but does not see withdrawal to '67 borders as absolute. There are about half a million Israelis living in Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem, they're not going to be evicted or transferred to Palestinian sovereignty.

[Jack Weber]

They're not ready for statehood. In time they may liberalize, but not now. As long as their priority is murdering Jews, they cannot be given independence in order to better facilitate their intentions.

I agree,and I suspect the real reason for rejecting Oslo was that it,while Arafat might have been able to see the benefits of that agreement,it was entirely unsellable to the Palestinian populous at large because peace is not what they want.Their position is the same as Iran's and Syria's,and the Hamas Manifesto...

Edited June 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[dre]

What Bob said was it was never implemented...if you can show it was now is the time. He also said it was never adopted by Hamas...same thing...

You need to read up on how UN resolutions work. They dont have to be "accepted" by the parties that are subject to them. 242 was a resolution that outlined the UN's position on the conflict and called for certain actions, and reaffirmed that land cannot be aquired through force, and it affirmed that UN states would recognize the territorial integratity of the states involved.

It doesnt have to be "adopted by Hamas" any more than Resolution 689 had to be "adopted" by Saddam Hussein

Its a Security Council resolution and as such it becomes part of International Law whether its enforced or not. And it still carries force today... Not one country on earth that I know of recognizes the occupied territories as being Israeli proper.

[naomiglover]

Here is the Hamas PM in an interview with Haaretz, where he talks about the 1967 border.

[Bob]

I agree,and I suspect the real reason for rejecting Oslo was that it,while Arafat might have been able to see the benefits of that agreement,it was entirely unsellable to the Palestinian populous at large because peace is not what they want.Their position is the same as Iran's and Syria's,and the Hamas Manifesto...

It's tragic, they're victims of their own self-perpetuating cultural cycle of hate. Their own generational indoctrination of anti-semitism has come to haunt them, as they cannot a two-state solution if it involves a Jewish Israel and Jewish self-determination. It's terrible, their own best-interests are destroyed by ideology and hate.

[Bob]

Here is the Hamas PM in an interview with Haaretz, where he talks about the 1967 border.

He's done several interviews and been duplicitous all the time. Do you really need me to link you to public proclamations made by him and other Hamas official before and after that interview that are clear about wanting to destroy Israel and Jewish independence?

I read that article when it came out. It doesn't support your LIE that Hamas has ever offerd recognition of Israel. It simply states that Hamas will offer a cease-fire (for years, wow!) if Israel withdraws to 1967 borders. In other words, Israel must uproot half-a-million Israelis from Judea and Samaria and EJ in order to appease Hamas, which has called for Israel's destruction. What a great offer!

This conversation is over.

[bloodyminded]

I agree,and I suspect the real reason for rejecting Oslo was that it,while Arafat might have been able to see the benefits of that agreement,it was entirely unsellable to the Palestinian populous at large because peace is not what they want.Their position is the same as Iran's and Syria's,and the Hamas Manifesto...

The "Palestinian populace at large" holds "the same position as Iran's and Syria's and the Hamas Manifesto"?

Since this is a declarative statement about the position held by millions of people...surely you have some evidence to back this up?

I mean, surely you wouldn't be regurgitating the unschooled opinions of some reactionary ideologue you read somewhere?

Edited June 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Jack Weber]

It's tragic, they're victims of their own self-perpetuating cultural cycle of hate. Their own generational indoctrination of anti-semitism has come to haunt them, as they cannot a two-state solution if it involves a Jewish Israel and Jewish self-determination. It's terrible, their own best-interests are destroyed by ideology and hate.

Well...Then we have intractable positions that ar unreconcilable...Because until the Palestinians reject this thought,and I'll bet there are some who do,Israel is left to deal with the Hamas bigots(who are propped up by the equally bigotted Syrians and Iranians)and there murderous grip on the GAZA populous.

What is Israel to do because this cannot go on forever?

Short of dropping tactical nukes and turning the place to glass OR mass forced deportations to neighbouring Arab countries(who seem to havean equal dislike of the Paestinians),where does this end?

Or does this continue on generation after generation?

[dre]

You fool, 242 is subjective in nature. Both parties signed 242 (by extension "recognizing" it), but disagree on how it's to be implemented. How can you not know this and pretend to know the first thing about international law or this conflict? The USA sees 242 as a frame-of-reference towards its flawed proposal of a "two-state solution", but does not see withdrawal to '67 borders as absolute. There are about half a million Israelis living in Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem, they're not going to be evicted or transferred to Palestinian sovereignty.

The USA sees 242 as a frame-of-reference towards its flawed proposal of a "two-state solution", but does not see withdrawal to '67 borders as absolute.

It IS absolute, at least in terms of both that resolution and international law in general. National borders cannot be permanently moved by war. The only way thats likely to change would be in the event of a negotiated settlement between Israel and Palestine and even then and deal regarding transfer of territory would need to be affirmed by a UNSC resolution.

This of course is why not one country on earth recognizes the occupied territories as Israeli.

There are about half a million Israelis living in Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem, they're not going to be evicted or transferred to Palestinian sovereignty.

If Israel isnt serious about withdrawing from land that it aquired through war, then your claim that Israel wants peace is pretty much blown out of the water.

[Bob]

Well...Then we have intractable positions that ar unreconcilable...Because until the Palestinians reject this thought,and I'll bet there are some who do,Israel is left to deal with the Hamas bigots(who are propped up by the equally bigotted Syrians and Iranians)and there murderous grip on the GAZA populous.

What is Israel to do because this cannot go on forever?

Short of dropping tactical nukes and turning the place to glass OR mass forced deportations to neighbouring Arab countries(who seem to havean equal dislike of the Paestinians),where does this end?

Or does this continue on generation after generation?

If history is an indicator, we're heading towards another major conflict. In the words of Aaron David Miller, in the absence of a political solution, the forces are history are telling us that we're wasting our time and that this conflict will be resolved (or kept going) through violence.

[Jack Weber]

The "Palestinian populace at large" holds "the same position as Iran's and Syria's and the Hamas Manifesto"?

Since this is a declarative statement about the position held by millions of people...surely you have some evidence to back this up?

I mean, surely you wouldn't be regurgitating the unschooled opinions of some reactionary ideologue you read somewhere?

I have posted several times on how The Iranian and Syrian governments have used Islamic Jihad,Hezbollah,and,Hamas as virtual proxies in a war against ther Zionist state they so despise...Through funds and arms...

I'm not doing it again...The apologists don't want to believe it..

Edited June 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[dre]

Well...Then we have intractable positions that ar unreconcilable...Because until the Palestinians reject this thought,and I'll bet there are some who do,Israel is left to deal with the Hamas bigots(who are propped up by the equally bigotted Syrians and Iranians)and there murderous grip on the GAZA populous.

What is Israel to do because this cannot go on forever?

Short of dropping tactical nukes and turning the place to glass OR mass forced deportations to neighbouring Arab countries(who seem to havean equal dislike of the Paestinians),where does this end?

Or does this continue on generation after generation?

Or does this continue on generation after generation?

BINGO. There is absolutely no way that you will live to see the end of this. Its been going on for many decades already and I dont forsee it being resolved in the next couple of hudred years.

[Jack Weber]

If history is an indicator, we're heading towards another major conflict. In the words of Aaron David Miller, in the absence of a political solution, the forces are history are telling us that we're wasting our time and that this conflict will be resolved (or kept going) through violence.

Sadly,I think that's the case...

I suspect our crazy,little,anti-Semitic,Shi'ite mouthpiece in Tehran might be the one who fires the first shot...

It's instructive that even Saudi Arabia is interested in getting the Iranian position forcebly changed...

[Bob]

Sadly,I think that's the case...

I suspect our crazy,little,anti-Semitic,Shi'ite mouthpiece in Tehran might be the one who fires the first shot...

It's instructive that even Saudi Arabia is interested in getting the Iranian position forcebly changed...

Israel needs to take the threats to its security seriously, hopefully we'll have a real leader who recognizes the threat. As far as the USA is concerned, clearly Obama doesn't get it with respect to Iran (Bush didn't get it, either).

[bloodyminded]

I have posted several times on how The Iranian and Syrian governmanets have used Islamic Jihad,Hezbollah,and,Hamas as virtual proxies in a war against ther Zionist state they so despise...Through funds and arms...

Sure they have. This places them in the exact same moral position (a bad one...I agree with you that far) as the support for proxy militias, terrorist groups, and state terrorists routinely employed by the powerful democracies. Except that the powerful democracies have, of course, behaved far worse, and with more devastating consequences.

I'll believe all the anti-Palestinian outrage is sincere when I hear one whisper of condemnation towards policies that we, as a voting public, could conceivably stop.

As it stands, it's sheer nonsense. It's insincere. It's masturbatory and ideologically fanatical.

I'm not doing it again...The apologists don't want to believe it..

Excuse me; you said the Palestinian populace as a whole was involved in total groupthink, millions of individuals holding precisely to the Hamas charter, to Syria, and to Iran.

So, this "apologist" thought you might provide some evidence for this claim.

Now you say that the use of proxies by Iran et al is somehow "evidence" of the thoughts and fellings of complex, individual human beings called "Palestinians."

By...some force.

Edited June 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[naomiglover]

So conclusion so far:

- The PLO recognized Israel and international law over 20 years ago.

- Hamas has called for a long term truce and has said it is willing to accept resolution 242, if Israel does as well

- Israel continues to reject resolution 242 and international law

Who wants peace?