Are Most Anti-Gay Leaders Closeted Homosexuals?

[Oleg Bach]

Sure you don't...

Hardly new at all, Oleg. There was a world with humans before the Victorian era (the prudishness of which was only a cover for the decadent behaviour that still went on).

YOU underestimate my level of spiritual awareness. The prudishness came about in the Victorian era due to the rampant spread of the killer siphilis...excuse the spelling. As for the word "decadent" - the route is cadence - perfect time and order..to suffer de-cadence is to stumble about during the great dance..to be out of time and confused.

Again ..sex got a bad name because it was equated with disease - disfiguration and death - much like today the kids are taught that sex equal AIDS..or ultimate death and it has lost it's meaning as a life giving activity base in creation - and not in simple re-creation. By the way - I am about to be 60 soon and have had my share of sex and beautiful and not so beautiful woman - I always went for the character and not just the looks - and if you assume I am some old closet case - then it would have happened by now...apparently as one gay guy said to me - "I guess the gay thing did not take" NOPE - it did not.

[WIP]

I dunno, Oleg; I'm sure you said something about being able to appreciate a beautiful man. How you choose to act on your attractions is up to you, depending on whether or not you even admit to having them. What's perverted is also subjective. But, I never said you had to watch anyone having sex in order to have homosexual feelings. UFC fans seem to think themselves the most heterosexual guys around, but have you ever watched a UFC match? There's an awful lot of naked, sweaty man-flesh pressed together and rolling around... I'm baffled as to how they can watch that stuff and still maintain a willed ignorance of the blatant, inherent homoeroticism! Or, at lest, maintain the pretence of ignorance of the blatant, inherent homoeroticism.

This example illustrates the differences between men who have different sexual orientations. You see "lot of naked, sweaty man-flesh pressed together" when you watch a UFC match, whereas I have never seen anything erotic in watching MMA fights. On the other hand I don't find the fledgling sport of women's MMA to be very erotic either...maybe because the girls are generally pretty butch looking....now foxy boxing, or girls wrestling in oil....now that's erotic!

This homoerotic thing does mirror the rhetoric of anti-gay leaders who keep referring to young men being "lured" into a life of sinful homosexual activity. This is where they let the cat out of the bag, because if they thought like a heterosexual man, they wouldn't be worried that heterosexuals would be doing their sinning with dudes! When it comes to male sexual orientation, there is a spectrum of preferences from exclusively heterosexual - through varying shades of bisexual attraction - to exclusively homosexual. And if you find MMA or WWE wrestling to be homoerotic, you have to be at least somewhat bisexual to get this sort of reaction to watching it.

[Oleg Bach]

Put them all into the closet together and let them work it out.

[g_bambino]

This example illustrates the differences between men who have different sexual orientations. You see "lot of naked, sweaty man-flesh pressed together" when you watch a UFC match...

Um... Everyone watching a UFC match sees a lot of naked, sweaty man-flesh pressed together; that's an integral aspect of the sport. I don't find it an overt turn on; in fact, the foremost feelings I have when I catch UFC on TV is: jealousy (I'd like to be as fit as those dudes) and very slight discomfort (at the fact that what I'm watching is a pair of shorts away from gay porn). But, at the same time, it's kind of cathartic to self-analyse why those are my reactions and it's amusing to think of all these self-identifying red-blooded hetro males, who'd take offence to any question of their sexual orientation, getting all excited about watching something that's so close to what they'd all say repulses them. Sasha Baron Cohen played up exactly this hypocrisy with Straight Dave's Man Slammin' Maxout in the final scene of Brüno.

Men's sports in general are rife with homoeroticism, from the extremely close contact of wrestling to the butt-slapping and naked horseplay of the locker room; it almost seems like these environments, since the days of the Greek Gymnasium, have served as an excuse for the average man to vent a little pent-up homosexuality (unconsciously, of course). And there's nothing wrong with it; the length of its existence seems to prove its usefulness.

This homoerotic thing does mirror the rhetoric of anti-gay leaders who keep referring to young men being "lured" into a life of sinful homosexual activity. This is where they let the cat out of the bag, because if they thought like a heterosexual man, they wouldn't be worried that heterosexuals would be doing their sinning with dudes! When it comes to male sexual orientation, there is a spectrum of preferences from exclusively heterosexual - through varying shades of bisexual attraction - to exclusively homosexual. And if you find MMA or WWE wrestling to be homoerotic, you have to be at least somewhat bisexual to get this sort of reaction to watching it.

And that is pretty much my point: everyone is, to some extent, bisexual; I find it hard to believe in absolutes, especially when it comes to the human character, which means it's difficult to accept that anyone's sexuality is truly exclusive. On that basis, I can't see how anyone's lured to a life of sinful homosexual activity except by failing to consciously suppress what otherwise comes naturally; which isn't always the best choice.

Where I find the "anti-gay leaders" to be blatant frauds is in the fact that they themselves, as humans, must inherently have at least some feelings they tell others it's a sin to have and, on top of that, those who have strong feelings that way, can't even control them as they expect everyone else to. But, I think you're right in that the self-appointed moral guides of Jesus are indeed, by worrying about people being lured to homosexuality, actually exposing their own inner responses to homosexuality. Theyre the same as any homophobe: they aren't necessarily closeted homosexuals, but they certainly have closeted homosexuality (which is, in itself, not at all unusual in our culture, but, as I said, most in the populace don't at the same time go around duplicitously condemning anyone to Hell for the same "sins" we have ourselves).

[+]

Edited June 10, 2010 by g_bambino

[Oleg Bach]

We are all gay....happy now? What a bunch of crap - life is a long line of choice..decisions hopefully based in good judgment and wisdom..sure there are masculine woman - and womanly men..but they are still men and still woman..and yes there are mutations caused by environmental poisoning..estrogen like compounds are consumed by us everyday..we like a colony of bees will eventually lose our ability to breed in a natural manner..

And - I know the pro-gay straight crowd is not going to like this - but in many cases gay is a choice..as far as sexual drive some take the path of least resistance and are conditioned to find their pleasure within their own sex..I have met many people who had relationships with woman..and simply did not want the natural burden of woman and child..so they took the easy route..Sex is about pleasure - and primarily about reproduction.

Some do not want to reproduce..some are not fit for reproduction..perhaps this is nature cleaning up the genetic pool?

[g_bambino]

We are all gay...

RANDY: God, everybody's looking at me. Everybody knows.

GERRY: Everybody doesn't know. And why are you so ashamed of me?

RANDY: What's happened to you?! You've become all needy and talkative and-! I just want to know it meant something to you.

GERRY: It didn't mean anything to me, Randy! All we did was watch each other masturbate in the hot tub!

MAN IN BRIEFS: Aw, I was just in the hot tub.

RANDY: Yeah! Yeah, it's true! I thought it would be exciting, and maybe it was, but I can't deal with your accusing stares! We watched each other jack off in the hot tub! There! We did it! I'm not proud of it, but there it is!

COUNSELOR MACKEY: Uh. Well, it's not like you're the only guy who's ever watched another guy masturbate; I've done it.

NED: Mmm-me too.

MAN 1: Yeah, uh I've done it a few times.

MAN 2: Yep.

MAN 3: Yup.

MAN 4: Uh huh.

MAN 5: Me too.

MAN 6: Myeup, me too.

MAN 7: Yup.

JIMBO: Aw, hell, uh I've done it too. With Cameron here.

COUNSELOR MACKEY: Uh, Juanita, could you fix some more dip, please, Juanita?

RANDY: You mean it? I'm not gay?

JIMBO: Hwell... maybe a little. But we're all a little gay.

South Park: Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub

[WIP]

Um... Everyone watching a UFC match sees a lot of naked, sweaty man-flesh pressed together; that's an integral aspect of the sport. I don't find it an overt turn on; in fact, the foremost feelings I have when I catch UFC on TV is: jealousy (I'd like to be as fit as those dudes) and very slight discomfort (at the fact that what I'm watching is a pair of shorts away from gay porn). But, at the same time, it's kind of cathartic to self-analyse why those are my reactions and it's amusing to think of all these self-identifying red-blooded hetro males, who'd take offence to any question of their sexual orientation, getting all excited about watching something that's so close to what they'd all say repulses them. Sasha Baron Cohen played up exactly this hypocrisy with Straight Dave's Man Slammin' Maxout in the final scene of Brüno.

I would agree that men who get worked up about homosexuals and how they are threatening our moral values are more than likely at least somewhat bisexual, and their upbringing about how sinful it is, makes them extremely conflicted. An actual heterosexual man who believes the same stuff is not going to obsess over this issue, and men who have become enlightened by modern scientific evidence are not going to be trying to throw speedbumps in the way of gays who are just trying to pursue happiness on their own terms.

Men's sports in general are rife with homoeroticism, from the extremely close contact of wrestling to the butt-slapping and naked horseplay of the locker room; it almost seems like these environments, since the days of the Greek Gymnasium, have served as an excuse for the average man to vent a little pent-up homosexuality (unconsciously, of course). And there's nothing wrong with it; the length of its existence seems to prove its usefulness.

By my definition, unless you get a rise out of it, it's not erotic. I know there are psychologists who go on about male-bonding being evidence of latent homosexual attractions, but unless there is actual sexual arousal involved, I don't buy it.

And that is pretty much my point: everyone is, to some extent, bisexual;

And that's where we part company. I don't see the evidence on male sexual attraction pointing to universal bisexuality. The best evidence indicates that we have a spectrum of sexual preference that runs from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual. We don't all share the same level of attraction. And I'm not sure how large that bisexual middle ground is, but I'm sure it doesn't represent the majority of men. It is apparently one of the reasons why girl/girl porn is so popular. Some of us don't want to look at guys on a porn video.

It's worth noting that most of research on sexual attraction and homosexuality centers on men; women are more difficult to study because female sexuality isn't as cut and dried as it is for us. Women can change sexual preferences during their lives, and I don't really believe that men can do this. It seems to be based on physical factors and set for life when we are in our early teens.

[Oleg Bach]

This stuff takes place when you are nine and ten and experimenting - grown men grow up.

[g_bambino]

By my definition, unless you get a rise out of it, it's not erotic. I know there are psychologists who go on about male-bonding being evidence of latent homosexual attractions, but unless there is actual sexual arousal involved, I don't buy it.

I think advertisers would say you do buy it, given how pervasive sexual suggestiveness is in advertising, all the way down to the most subliminal imagery used for products that otherwise have nothing to do with sex.

The best evidence indicates that we have a spectrum of sexual preference that runs from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual. We don't all share the same level of attraction.

I never said everyone shares the same level of attraction. What I wrote, with added emphasis: "everyone is, to some extent, bisexual." Only if you believe in the existence of absolutes in the human character can you assert (but not prove) my statement is false; and, even then, absolutes are actually the rarity in nature, not the norm. It's also odd to say most people have an absolute sexual preference just before making the equally odd and contradictory claim that most women's predilections are flexible; women are people, too, and I'd say that if you see women's sexual tastes morphing more freely than men's, it's a consequence of cultural paradigms ("the reasons why girl/girl porn is so popular"), not nature.

[+]

Edited June 10, 2010 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

This stuff takes place when you are nine and ten and experimenting - grown men grow up.

Grown men have all grown up differently.

[WIP]

I think advertisers would say you do buy it, given how pervasive sexual suggestiveness is in advertising, all the way down to the most subliminal imagery used for products that otherwise have nothing to do with sex.

Even if it's true, it's not something that I am going to be concerned about.

I never said everyone shares the same level of attraction. What I wrote, with added emphasis: "everyone is, to some extent, bisexual." Only if you believe in the existence of absolutes in the human character can you assert (but not prove) my statement is false; and, even then, absolutes are actually the rarity in nature, not the norm.

I would say that if your sexual arousal is only stimulated by members of the opposite sex, or conversely by members of the same sex -- that's as absolute as things will get. I recognize that there is a bisexual middle ground, which researchers believe is much larger among women than among men, but there are people at opposite ends of this scale; so we can't all be even a little bit bisexual.

It's also odd to say most people have an absolute sexual preference just before making the equally odd and contradictory claim that most women's predilections are flexible; women are people, too, and I'd say that if you see women's sexual tastes morphing more freely than men's, it's a consequence of cultural paradigms ("the reasons why girl/girl porn is so popular"), not nature.

[+]

I didn't say most people, I said most men -- and there is a lot of obvious differences between men and women regarding sexual attraction. Women's sexuality is more complicated and more flexible than men's -- that's just the way it is, and likely a big reason why there is a lot less information about lesbians that there is about male homosexuals; men are easier to figure out for the researchers.

[Oleg Bach]

It might not be sexual preference but actually the first experience a young person is introduced to...there are situations where a teacher might "suspect" that a child is gay and then in a politically correct manner lead the poor kid down that garden path..mean while the kid has had not had an experience with a woman..and his only experience MIGHT have been to jerk of with his buddy in the dog house when he was nine looking at a playboy center fold..sexual interference by our new liberal authorities should be illegal in so far as encouraging and enforcing what was once perverse behavior.

Young dog who have not got their bearings yet might attempt to mount another dog..but a mature dog knows better - they know what is what.

[Oleg Bach]

BAMBINO IS A BIT OF A RAT - He took my quote out of context...did an edit...the original quote by myself was "We are all gay - happy now? It was a joke and it was patronizingly cynical - Bambino left that part out...he inserts "we are all gay" as if that is what I believe and he runs with it - I believe Bambino might just be a propogandist of sort...He owes me an apology for altering my quote - Like I took a lawyer once who pulled up some compromising E-mails as evidence _ I told the judge if he was going to do that then he should present ALL OF THE E-MAILS and not just select what is useful to him but does not show the big picture that gives full perspective..I was pacifying people like Bambino - telling him that he might be happy if EVERY ONE WAS GAY> again - if you want to use a quote - use it all or not at all.

[Pliny]

Yes, they have included themselves in the definition of marriage. Everything's working out fine.

Would that it were true.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Pliny

[Pliny]

The recent exchange here reminds me of JD Salinger talk about "Flits" in "Catcher in the Rye". It makes Olegs point about the young being influenced. The sketch from Southpark is also illustrative of how sexual identity can be influenced. It is one's uncertainty about what sexuality is that make him uncertain about his sexual identity. Probably many men have wondered if they were gay because of not understanding it but in actuality it is pretty simple to tell - You don't even have to try it out but many gays will tell you, you should.

[g_bambino]

BAMBINO IS A BIT OF A RAT - He took my quote out of context...

Oh, relax. I was just playing with words; yours reminded me of the near identical ones in the South Park episode. That's all.

[Oleg Bach]

Oh, relax. I was just playing with words; yours reminded me of the near identical ones in the South Park episode. That's all.

RELAX? R E L A X ? I never relax - I am a hyper vigilant reactionary nut ball...

[bloodyminded]

The recent exchange here reminds me of JD Salinger talk about "Flits" in "Catcher in the Rye". It makes Olegs point about the young being influenced. The sketch from Southpark is also illustrative of how sexual identity can be influenced. It is one's uncertainty about what sexuality is that make him uncertain about his sexual identity. Probably many men have wondered if they were gay because of not understanding it but in actuality it is pretty simple to tell - You don't even have to try it out but many gays will tell you, you should.

I agree that sexuality can be, and is, influenced by social events and life circumstances.

However, I don't think one can "change" utterly from genetic predisposition, any more than wishing to breathe underwater is all that's needed for the skill.

At any rate, i don't see a problem anyway; if somebody thinks someone else has been "turned gay"...so what? I don't see it as a negative, but as a neutral.

[g_bambino]

I recognize that there is a bisexual middle ground, which researchers believe is much larger among women than among men, but there are people at opposite ends of this scale; so we can't all be even a little bit bisexual.

It's been theorised since at least Freud that everyone does indeed start out as latently bisexual and, as time progresses, each person's identity becomes more refined and defined. Again, given that there are almost no absolutes in nature and even less in human thought and emotion, I can't believe anyone, let alone most people, end up 100% one way. I'll grant you that maybe the majority of the populace rests near the ends of the spectrum, but none at the absolute ends.

I didn't say most people, I said most men -- and there is a lot of obvious differences between men and women regarding sexual attraction. Women's sexuality is more complicated and more flexible than men's -- that's just the way it is, and likely a big reason why there is a lot less information about lesbians that there is about male homosexuals; men are easier to figure out for the researchers.

Of course there are differences between men and women in the field of sexual attraction. However, you're making the assertion that all differences between men and women regarding sexual attraction are somehow both innate and resolute; "that's just the way it is." The problem with that position, though, is that, in order to maintain it, you'd also have to ignore the litany of evidence out there of experimentation, desires, fetishes, and whatnot amongst men now, as well as the differences between people in different cultures and times. Men's sexual variety isn't as infused into popular culture as the same amongst women, but then, the expectations placed on men by our society are different than those placed on women. Yes, at the core of sexual function there are differences between males and females - men want to spread their seed, women want to be more discerning for the sake of the offspring; but, when we start to get into the complexity of human desire, pleasure, and sexuality, I don't think there's terribly much difference between the two genders.

[Oleg Bach]

BAMBINO is right on the money..I firmly believe that men and woman are exactly alike sexually - some are born tucked in and some tucked out. These differences that are institutionally propogated that men and woman are two different species cause a seperation of the sexes and creates contention. Plus it make it harder to get laid and enjoy the comfort of the opposite sex - we are not enemies..we are a gift to each other...just wish they would stop making it so political and then tossing in gay issues complicates the matter more leading to more unhappiness.

[Oleg Bach]

ALSO as for offsping - the arrogant male assumes that his son will be some sort of clone of himself..from my experience the mind of the father usually ends up in the mind of the daughter and sons are usually the carriers of their mother's traits.. THAT is why old school fathers assume that some sons are failures in their eyes..because they do not live up to the expectations of reproduction - that male offspring are the reproduction of the father..which for the most part is rarely true..perhaps this gay issue is that some sons share a very similar personality of the mother and the mother projects her femaleness on the son .. this vicarious approach to children has been going on since time began - it is the myths that cause problems.