PETA pies Fisheries Minister

[KeyStone]

"Picture can look bad when they really aren't."

Well, based on that, we can pretty much rule out all evidence, by any source that might have a bias.

Stop being so difficult, and simply admit that there are gestation crates in Canada. Maple Leaf has even admitted it, which is lucky because it seems there is no other way you would have believed it. The meat industry loves people as gullible as you.

"I don't consider gestation crates cruel. Neither does the American Veterinary Medical Association"

Well, most people do, once they are explained what they are. The AVMA does not rule on cruelty. They rule on health. As long as the animal stays healthy they don't care. Any organization that deals with cruelty, such as the ASPCA or the HSI is against gestation crates.

"

-I'll agree with that

-Agreed as well

-After emailing maple leaf food this seems to be true

-Think that depends on the animal in question. eg the Harp seal hunt is one of the best regulated in the world.

"

Well, it seems that we are making some progress, although I have to strongly disagree on your seal hunt claim. But we'll save that for another thread. You also agree that the meat industry should open their doors, to let people see how they are treating the animals. That's all I want. I want voters and consumers to make those decisions, but in order to make informed decisions they need to know the truth.

"No you're right it does seem they are avoiding it."

I respect the fact that you were open minded enough to investigate it yourself. That certainly says something about your character.

"Because the photo's are used to promote a message that isn't true, and many of the protesters harass the sealers."

How does a photo lie? And if it does, would they even need to go near the seal hunt.

Here is a video, which will give you a better idea of what really happened, prior to the new laws that restrict protesters.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-28131871518847999#

"I think that would violate some trade agreements."

True, sadly.

"See report. Though the real argument from him is the "Farmers trear their animals well because they's just good business" which I would argue is true because many animals give inferior quality meat or other products if they are unhealthy or stressed."

It sounds nice, but it simply isn't true. A lot of companies including Wal-Mart say they treat their employees well, because it's just good business to value their human resources. If they can save money, they will. In fact, treating animals poorly creates better meat, because restricting movement ensures the animals don't develop muscle, and the meat stays tender.

"PETA supports terrorists that makes them terrorists. "

You don't have to convince me that Ingrid is a bit of a nutter.

However, PETA would be a terrorist if they aided Rod in carrying out his actions. They merely helped him get his life back on track afterwards. Besides which, while the US government likes to label the ALF a terrorist organization, they have never harmed anyone. That is part of their mandate. Their 'terrorism' includes destroying fur farms, and animal testing labs. Vandals or economic saboteurs would be a more appropriate phrase.

[Guest TrueMetis]

"Picture can look bad when they really aren't."

Well, based on that, we can pretty much rule out all evidence, by any source that might have a bias.

Stop being so difficult, and simply admit that there are gestation crates in Canada. Maple Leaf has even admitted it, which is lucky because it seems there is no other way you would have believed it. The meat industry loves people as gullible as you.

There are gestation crates in Canada, I never said there are not.

"I don't consider gestation crates cruel. Neither does the American Veterinary Medical Association"

Well, most people do, once they are explained what they are. The AVMA does not rule on cruelty. They rule on health. As long as the animal stays healthy they don't care. Any organization that deals with cruelty, such as the ASPCA or the HSI is against gestation crates.

That doesn't make any sense if they are healthy than how is it cruel?

Well, it seems that we are making some progress, although I have to strongly disagree on your seal hunt claim. But we'll save that for another thread. You also agree that the meat industry should open their doors, to let people see how they are treating the animals. That's all I want. I want voters and consumers to make those decisions, but in order to make informed decisions they need to know the truth.

Ok.

"No you're right it does seem they are avoiding it."

I respect the fact that you were open minded enough to investigate it yourself. That certainly says something about your character.

Thank you.

"Because the photo's are used to promote a message that isn't true, and many of the protesters harass the sealers."

How does a photo lie? And if it does, would they even need to go near the seal hunt.

Here is a video, which will give you a better idea of what really happened, prior to the new laws that restrict protesters.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-28131871518847999#

A photo lies because a simple caption can make it look like something is wrong when it isn't. All those pictures you see of a sealer about to club a seal or pictures of seals after they have been clubbed are to make it look like the seal suffered when in fact the seal would have been unconcious immediately. They also show only the clubbing ignoring that the vast majority of seals are shot. They want it to look cruel when it isn't. The really annoying thing is you can explain this but people will still think it is cruel because it looks bad.

"We do not support the killing of any animals but we consider the slaughter of the seals in Newfoundland to be humane."

Trevor Scott, Executive Director of International Society for the Protection of Animals (ISPA)

"We have confidence in the data and management competence of our Canadian neighbors and in their judgment as to whether the harvest level may be damaging to the Harp seal population. Also, the method of killing has been examined by a number of independent groups and found to be the most effective as well as the most humane."

The International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies(1982)

"The Gulf of St. Lawrence seal hunt as it is now conducted and as far as the young seals are concerned, is without a doubt one of the most humane slaughtering operations I have ever witnessed."

Tom Hughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Societies and former British Columbia SPCA executive

The Video isn't even worth looking at as it was made by the HSUS those people are parasitic scum who try to gain some sembalance of credibility from using the same name as the Humane Society.

This is the type of thing the HSUS does Katrina : HSUS in Action I had trouble finishing it.

"See report. Though the real argument from him is the "Farmers trear their animals well because they's just good business" which I would argue is true because many animals give inferior quality meat or other products if they are unhealthy or stressed."

It sounds nice, but it simply isn't true. A lot of companies including Wal-Mart say they treat their employees well, because it's just good business to value their human resources. If they can save money, they will. In fact, treating animals poorly creates better meat, because restricting movement ensures the animals don't develop muscle, and the meat stays tender.

While what you say may be true I have to point out meat is muscle so an animal not developing muscle mean less meat.

"PETA supports terrorists that makes them terrorists. "

You don't have to convince me that Ingrid is a bit of a nutter.

However, PETA would be a terrorist if they aided Rod in carrying out his actions. They merely helped him get his life back on track afterwards. Besides which, while the US government likes to label the ALF a terrorist organization, they have never harmed anyone. That is part of their mandate. Their 'terrorism' includes destroying fur farms, and animal testing labs. Vandals or economic saboteurs would be a more appropriate phrase.

ALd destroyed millions worth of property and sent letter bombs to people. They're terrorists. They've also destroyed a lot of medical research that could have saved lives to hell with ALF.

Edited March 11, 2010 by TrueMetis

[KeyStone]

That doesn't make any sense if they are healthy than how is it cruel?

There is a lot more to life than being alive.

A photo lies because a simple caption can make it look like something is wrong when it isn't. All those pictures you see of a sealer about to club a seal or pictures of seals after they have been clubbed are to make it look like the seal suffered when in fact the seal would have been unconcious immediately. They also show only the clubbing ignoring that the vast majority of seals are shot. They want it to look cruel when it isn't. The really annoying thing is you can explain this but people will still think it is cruel because it looks bad.

I don't really understand you TrueMetis. You dismiss photos because their source is allegedly biased, but then you post the opinion of a Pork Producer. You dismiss a video showing seal carcasses left behind to rot because it is biased, but then you post a letter from the sealfishery, from an unknown person.

We have a total of four biased sources. One video, one set of photos, one opinion, and one letter. You dismiss the photo and video, and give credibility to the letter and the opinion? Doesn't that suggest a bias within yourself as to how you perceive and evaluate information. I could present hundreds of opinions stating that gestation crates and the seal hunt is cruel. I could produce dozens of letters explaining the cruelty of the meat industry, but I don't because I assume you will reject those, due to any lack of real evidence. Yet, here you are - parading out opinions and letters as legitimate proof that everything the HSUS does is corrupt and deceitful.

"We do not support the killing of any animals but we consider the slaughter of the seals in Newfoundland to be humane."

Trevor Scott, Executive Director of International Society for the Protection of Animals (ISPA)

Ahh, here we have a perfect example. You take this at face value. Clearly, if the International Society for the Protection of Animals is okay with the seal hunt, it must be humane. A strong argument - except for the minor inconvenience that there is no such organization. Do a search for them. Look for Trevor Scott. They don't have a website. They don't have any online presence at all. Google them both at the same time. The only thing that comes up is your Seals and Sealing website. So, please consider this deceit, when you try to determine who is telling

"We have confidence in the data and management competence of our Canadian neighbors and in their judgment as to whether the harvest level may be damaging to the Harp seal population. Also, the method of killing has been examined by a number of independent groups and found to be the most effective as well as the most humane."

The International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies(1982)

Wow, a group of hunters, doesn't think killing seals is cruel. Wow.

"The Gulf of St. Lawrence seal hunt as it is now conducted and as far as the young seals are concerned, is without a doubt one of the most humane slaughtering operations I have ever witnessed."

Tom Hughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Societies and former British Columbia SPCA executive"

Well, this is a real one. You found one real opinion, from a source that seems to be qualified and unbiased.

Of course, slaughtering is not all that humane in general. I suspect that the slaughtering process itself, is not any more inhumane than other slaughterhouses. The difference, is the age that the pups are taken, the fact that they are only taken for their coats, and the fact that the economic contribution is very insignificant.

The Video isn't even worth looking at as it was made by the HSUS those people are parasitic scum who try to gain some sembalance of credibility from using the same name as the Humane Society."

Right, unlike the real humane society, that you posted a quote from? The HSUS does a lot of good work. Even if that letter is legitimate, (which it may or may not be), the Humane Society like every big organization makes mistakes, and often in big organizations people would rather not take responsibility than get things done. This does not dismiss all the good work that they do, nor does it discredit the video in anyway. If you were to demonstrate something showing a flagrant intention to deceive and distort the truth, it may have an effect. However, it seemed quite clear on the video that the seal carcasses were left behind to rot. As for the sealers chasing the videographers, we can both speculate as to why they were doing it.

"While what you say may be true I have to point out meat is muscle so an animal not developing muscle mean less meat."

What do you think is worth more? A pound of lean, tender meat, or a pound and a half, of tough, sinewy meat?

No, as much as you want to believe the meat industry's rhetoric, it makes economic sense to treat animals poorly, which is why they do it, and why they don't open their doors to show us what is going on.

ALd destroyed millions worth of property and sent letter bombs to people. They're terrorists. They've also destroyed a lot of medical research that could have saved lives to hell with ALF.

No, ALF did not sent letter bombs. You have that entirely incorrect. It is not within their mandate.

You may be thinking of ARM. Yes, they do destroy medical research that is gained at the expense of torturing animals.

[Guest TrueMetis]

There is a lot more to life than being alive.

Ya being health which most of these animals are.

I don't really understand you TrueMetis. You dismiss photos because their source is allegedly biased, but then you post the opinion of a Pork Producer. You dismiss a video showing seal carcasses left behind to rot because it is biased, but then you post a letter from the sealfishery, from an unknown person.

You can ignore the pork producers opinion, but not the letter from the person on the HSUS unless you can show that they did not do what was claimed within. Also the carcasses will not rot, ice has this habit of melting the body end up in the ocean were it is eaten.

We have a total of four biased sources. One video, one set of photos, one opinion, and one letter. You dismiss the photo and video, and give credibility to the letter and the opinion? Doesn't that suggest a bias within yourself as to how you perceive and evaluate information. I could present hundreds of opinions stating that gestation crates and the seal hunt is cruel. I could produce dozens of letters explaining the cruelty of the meat industry, but I don't because I assume you will reject those, due to any lack of real evidence. Yet, here you are - parading out opinions and letters as legitimate proof that everything the HSUS does is corrupt and deceitful.

My link

The HSUS is corrupt and deceitful.

Ahh, here we have a perfect example. You take this at face value. Clearly, if the International Society for the Protection of Animals is okay with the seal hunt, it must be humane. A strong argument - except for the minor inconvenience that there is no such organization. Do a search for them. Look for Trevor Scott. They don't have a website. They don't have any online presence at all. Google them both at the same time. The only thing that comes up is your Seals and Sealing website. So, please consider this deceit, when you try to determine who is telling

The ISPA is now the World Society for the Protection of Animals.

"We have confidence in the data and management competence of our Canadian neighbors and in their judgment as to whether the harvest level may be damaging to the Harp seal population. Also, the method of killing has been examined by a number of independent groups and found to be the most effective as well as the most humane."

The International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies(1982)

Wow, a group of hunters, doesn't think killing seals is cruel. Wow.

Hunters are responsible for more conservation than all the animal rights groups combined.

"The Gulf of St. Lawrence seal hunt as it is now conducted and as far as the young seals are concerned, is without a doubt one of the most humane slaughtering operations I have ever witnessed."

Tom Hughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Societies and former British Columbia SPCA executive"

Well, this is a real one. You found one real opinion, from a source that seems to be qualified and unbiased.

Of course, slaughtering is not all that humane in general. I suspect that the slaughtering process itself, is not any more inhumane than other slaughterhouses. The difference, is the age that the pups are taken, the fact that they are only taken for their coats, and the fact that the economic contribution is very insignificant.

What does the age have to do with anything? Killing an animal at three months is no difference than 30 years. Dead is dead.

Seals are harvested for their meat, seal fat for omega-3's and yes the pelt. As long as they make enough for it to be sustainable it doesn't matter what they are using it for.

The economic contribution for the sealers is the difference between EI or no EI that money means everything to the sealers.

oh and

"I have examined the craniums of thousands of seal pups and I have never observed one that did not have massive hemorrhage in the brain which is an indication that the animal was rendered unconscious and therefore incapable of feeling any pain."

Dr. Harry Rowsell, D.V.M., D.V.P.R., PH.D

Department of Pathology, University of Ottawa, Canadian Council of Animal Care

The seal hunt puts slaughter houses to shame.

Right, unlike the real humane society, that you posted a quote from? The HSUS does a lot of good work. Even if that letter is legitimate, (which it may or may not be), the Humane Society like every big organization makes mistakes, and often in big organizations people would rather not take responsibility than get things done. This does not dismiss all the good work that they do, nor does it discredit the video in anyway. If you were to demonstrate something showing a flagrant intention to deceive and distort the truth, it may have an effect. However, it seemed quite clear on the video that the seal carcasses were left behind to rot. As for the sealers chasing the videographers, we can both speculate as to why they were doing it.

The HSUS is scum plain and simple.

"We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding."

Wayne Pacelle, CEO of the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)

Hope you don't support them and own pets to.

What do you think is worth more? A pound of lean, tender meat, or a pound and a half, of tough, sinewy meat?

No, as much as you want to believe the meat industry's rhetoric, it makes economic sense to treat animals poorly, which is why they do it, and why they don't open their doors to show us what is going on.

You really think that allowing animals to gain a bit of muscle would really make it that tough? Wow you know nothing about how animals develop.

No, ALF did not sent letter bombs. You have that entirely incorrect. It is not within their mandate.

You may be thinking of ARM. Yes, they do destroy medical research that is gained at the expense of torturing animals.

To bad ARM may just be a cover name for ALF. My link

The ALF has denied responsibility for Monday's attack. It said the device may have been sent by the Animal Rights Militia or the Justice Department, two hardline groups committed to violence. Police believe ARM and the Justice Department are either cover names for the ALF or that the groups have mutual membership. Banks have been warned to step up security.

Oh and "torturing" animals nice job playing to emotions, the standards labs have to go through to keep up the welfare of their test subjects are very rigourus.