What in the world is going on with the OPP?

[Popeye]

But they weren't there for the citizens of Caledonia, particularly those who spent 4 years "behind the lines" and who just had their house bought out to end their lawsuit against McGuinty's government and hush it up!

That's the point!

Ummmm...I'm going to have to disagree with you here Wild Bill.

On April 21, 2006, the OPP received a phone call from a concerned citizen that a small girl on a bicycle was 'lost' (merely a block or so from her home). The small girl was on McKenzie Road where ALL traffic had been rerouted because of the barricades on Argyle St and the #6 Bypass in Caledonia.

The OPP responded. The OPP returned the child safely to her family. The timing was unbelievable considering it was but 24 hrs or so earlier that the failed OPP raid had occurred on the former Douglas Creek Estates in Caledonia.

What most people do not know is that one of the strongest voices on 6th Line that is/was technically "behind the barricade" has continually stated that there are "no OPP allowed on 6th Line" yet a son is an OPP officer who works for Haldimand County OPP and a son-in-law is also an OPP officer. I'm not completely clear on the living arrangements, but at one time during the dispute one of them was living in that residence on 6th Line. That vocal resident continues to live on 6th Line and two of the direct family members continue to work for the OPP....

No OPP on 6th Line?? You tell me.

[Popeye]

... the canadian police violate our basic rights and spit on us every day. instead of acting as neutral enforcers of law and order they take the immoral dark side against what is good, against what is right ...

... the government of canada is sacked ...

SOME LIKE IT BRUTAL

I really have no idea of what the point is that you were trying to make. This thread is about the OPP and not the Canadian Police (RCMP as I would read it).

I'm not clear on what would have you believe that the police (of any organization) only "violate our basic rights and spit on us every day. instead of acting as neutral enforcer of law and order..." taking the "immoral dark side" is supposed to mean but I'll assume that your experiences with the police have been less than to your liking; for whatever reason.

As for your comment "the government of canada is sacked", I'll have to disagree with you...the government of Canada is screwed up royally from what I can gather.

[Wild Bill]

Ummmm...I'm going to have to disagree with you here Wild Bill.

On April 21, 2006, the OPP received a phone call from a concerned citizen that a small girl on a bicycle was 'lost' (merely a block or so from her home). The small girl was on McKenzie Road where ALL traffic had been rerouted because of the barricades on Argyle St and the #6 Bypass in Caledonia.

The OPP responded. The OPP returned the child safely to her family. The timing was unbelievable considering it was but 24 hrs or so earlier that the failed OPP raid had occurred on the former Douglas Creek Estates in Caledonia.

What most people do not know is that one of the strongest voices on 6th Line that is/was technically "behind the barricade" has continually stated that there are "no OPP allowed on 6th Line" yet a son is an OPP officer who works for Haldimand County OPP and a son-in-law is also an OPP officer. I'm not completely clear on the living arrangements, but at one time during the dispute one of them was living in that residence on 6th Line. That vocal resident continues to live on 6th Line and two of the direct family members continue to work for the OPP....

No OPP on 6th Line?? You tell me.

The point was not that the OPP never, ever did anything! If they fail 100 times and respond once properly that "once" doesn't prove anything, except that the protesters for once let cooler heads prevail.

I have family that are OPP out there. They've told me straight out what they have been forced to do by orders from "on high". If they speak out or refuse, there goes their job, career and pension. They'll be mowing lawns to feed their kids.

Law officers should not pick and choose which laws and when they will enforce them. It's a pity that the Chatwell and Brown settlement has a gag order. McGuinty finally smartened up. It was obvious that as things played out in court it would politically have been very damaging.

Actually, the fact that the settlement IS under a gag order is quite telling! What possible reason could there be except to protect the government from embarrassment?

Any Canadian who has been following the Caledonia issues in the papers can't help but wonder if the OPP would be there for them, if they were in a similar situation. If it was a car accident the chances are very good. If it involved native protests it likely would be a different story. That is as plain as day and as obvious as the sun coming up in the morning.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Popeye]

I hope this works out for reading. Here goes...

The point was not that the OPP never, ever did anything! If they fail 100 times and respond once properly that "once" doesn't prove anything, except that the protesters for once let cooler heads prevail.

From the bottom to the top of what you posted it reads as though the protesters and their once cooler heads do indeed prevail. Do you honestly believe for one single second that the government or OPP were in complete control of what happened in Caledonia?? If you do, then you are far more naive than I surmised. When does the government or police have control over the individual action or effort of anybody in any circumstance? If you have that answer I can put you in touch with at least one police force that would like to purchase a mass quantity of your 'crystal ball' insight.

I have family that are OPP out there. They've told me straight out what they have been forced to do by orders from "on high". If they speak out or refuse, there goes their job, career and pension. They'll be mowing lawns to feed their kids.

Then your "family" has undoubtedly told you that there have been 3500+ OPP officers from across the whole Province of Ontario who have served time in Caledonia. As an eye witness to just about everything that has happened in this town, I can tell you that the OPP have done one HELL of a job 'keeping the peace' because there is ABSOLUTELY no doubt in my mind that had it not been for the OPP standing shoulder to shoulder 20 across and 6 deep across Argyle St in Caledonia, Ontario on more than one occassion, at least 'one somebody' from either side may have ended up dead. Your family members should be proud. They served the general public extremely well all the way around and they are worth every tax dollar spent on them from what I have personally witnessed.

Law officers should not pick and choose which laws and when they will enforce them.

That is called discretion.

Should we all demand that the next time an OPP officer (who may) pull us over in a traffic stop give us the ticket listing our infraction(s) to ensure that they do not have the choice to enforce the law regardless of ANY reason? But I do understand what you are getting at/saying...KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)...lets take the guess work out of it for everyone. Right? How much is your freedom worth? How much of your freedom to make decisions for yourself (for the right or wrong reasons) are you willing to put in the hands of others? It's an all or none question, rhetorical I suppose.

It's a pity that the Chatwell and Brown settlement has a gag order. McGuinty finally smartened up. It was obvious that as things played out in court it would politically have been very damaging.

McGuinty is a fool. I can't actually believe that you used the words 'McGuinty' and 'smartened' in the same sentence. Gag orders are common place in lawsuit settlements. I don't give a rat's azz how much money Chatwell/Brown got because of a gag order or no gag order, its none of my dammed business.

Actually, the fact that the settlement IS under a gag order is quite telling! What possible reason could there be except to protect the government from embarrassment?

Maybe the Crown was trying to protect potential witnesses who may have been summoned to testify. Maybe the Crown was trying to protect Chatwell/Brown from those who would/could/may undoubtedly find a reason to further persue the couple who are now moving on with their lives. Who cares. It no longer matters the 'why?' any more than it matters the 'why not?'. If people want to protect the McGuinty government from embarrassment all they have to do is vote for them again in the next provincial election. Pretty simple crap that is.

Any Canadian who has been following the Caledonia issues in the papers can't help but wonder if the OPP would be there for them, if they were in a similar situation. If it was a car accident the chances are very good. If it involved native protests it likely would be a different story. That is as plain as day and as obvious as the sun coming up in the morning.

Any Canadian who has been following the Caledonia issues in the paper and BELIEVE that the media is telling the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH need to stop subscribing to their newpaper subscription ASAP. Media stopped reporting 'responsible, reliable' reports a long time ago and not just on the Caledonia/Six Nations issues. Media is only in this for the money and nothing more. You know what they say...sex sells.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Popeye

[charter.rights]

I hope this works out for reading. Here goes...

As an eye witness to just about everything that has happened in this town, I can tell you that the OPP have done one HELL of a job 'keeping the peace' because there is ABSOLUTELY no doubt in my mind that had it not been for the OPP standing shoulder to shoulder 20 across and 6 deep across Argyle St in Caledonia, Ontario on more than one occassion, at least 'one somebody' from either side may have ended up dead.

Of course many times (if not most of the time) the OPP had to stand and face the out of control Caledonians who were causing most of the trouble on the ground.

That is called discretion.

It isn't even that. In spite of Bill's wild accusations there were in fact many charges laid against natives who got out of hand. The fact they weren't arrested on the spot deludes people into thinking no action was taken. The OPP do not arrest people during a protest where it may escalate into violence. And so the evidence was collected and charges laid after everyone calmed down.

Any Canadian who has been following the Caledonia issues in the paper and BELIEVE that the media is telling the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH need to stop subscribing to their newpaper subscription ASAP. Media stopped reporting 'responsible, reliable' reports a long time ago and not just on the Caledonia/Six Nations issues. Media is only in this for the money and nothing more. You know what they say...sex sells.

Wild Bill is just a miserable old man - we all know the type - any he is just trying to find comfort in his lies and delusions. Let him be. Real people know exactly what really happened there.....and we even know the lies that Brown and Chatwell said to get paid off. Brownie caused most of his own trouble living there, and no doubt he will continue to from a distance.

[Shwa]

Topical editorial from the Toronto Star yesterday:

Much ado about Fantino

----------------------------

Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino is on the hot seat again – this time over his handling of the native occupation in Caledonia. He faces a criminal charge, brought by a private citizen, of trying to influence the local council. The case was supposed to proceed last week, but it has been put over until next month to give the Crown more time to review evidence.

Provincial NDP Leader Andrea Horwath, who should know better, has said Fantino should step aside as OPP commissioner while the charge is before the courts. That would set a troublesome precedent.

The case revolves around Gary McHale, the private citizen who brought the charge against Fantino. Usually described as an "activist," McHale heads up a group called Canadian Advocates for Charter Equality, which is dedicated to the "restoration of the rule of law in Ontario." He is not a resident of Caledonia, but he has organized demonstrations in the community against the native occupation. Fantino and the OPP, who have been working hard to lower the temperature in the Caledonia conflict, do not appreciate McHale's efforts.

So in 2007, Fantino emailed the local mayor and councillors to ask them not to egg McHale on. Fantino also suggested that the OPP contract with the county would not be renewed if councillors continued to back McHale. The implied threat was perhaps ill-advised, but the thinking behind the email is understandable, given the pressures on the OPP from all sides in Caledonia.

If McHale can force Fantino aside by laying a private charge in this case, then what is to stop anyone else who disagrees with the OPP from doing the same?

The Caledonia situation is most regrettable and has been dragged out for far too long (four years). But it won't be resolved by prosecuting Fantino or pushing him out of the commissioner's office. Rather, it will take good-faith bargaining on the land claims and related issues by both the federal and provincial governments and the Six Nations.

----------------------------

[Wild Bill]

If McHale can force Fantino aside by laying a private charge in this case, then what is to stop anyone else who disagrees with the OPP from doing the same?

The Caledonia situation is most regrettable and has been dragged out for far too long (four years). But it won't be resolved by prosecuting Fantino or pushing him out of the commissioner's office. Rather, it will take good-faith bargaining on the land claims and related issues by both the federal and provincial governments and the Six Nations.

----------------------------

The bad feeling has little or nothing to do with the validity of the land claims. It comes from the SN protesters tactics, not their justifications. Knocking out the electricity didn't inconvenience anyone at Queens Park. Virtually ALL of the protest tactics hurt the citizens of the town! In effect, they were used as cannon fodder.

I could have respected the protesters more if even ONE ATV had roared through McGUINTY'S back yard one night!

As I've said many times, the SN protesters explanation seemed to be "Sorry for punching you in the face but hey, don't blame me! Your governments MADE me do it! After you wipe the blood from your nose you really should be joining me on my side of the protest line!"

Targeting innocents is simple terrorism, by definition. Revenge should be targeted specifically at the individuals who have wronged you. If someone punches you in the face it is illogical to think you should punch back at anyone of the same race. You should punch the specific individual who hit you first! Frankly, I find the SN protest tactics to be racist in themselves. Actions define you. It doesn't matter if you are a member of a minority group yourself. The most racist man I ever met was a Hindu.

Back to Fantino, I seriously doubt if this lawsuit will go anywhere. There will be some legal trick that will get Fantino off the hook or more likely, make sure the trial never goes ahead anyway. McGuinty is just looking to provide some appearance of process. It's starting to get close to election time and this suit could drag out until that time. Meanwhile, Caledonia has become a regular item in all the national papers. McGuinty has some serious worries for the next election.

He will want to do all he can to bury this one!

Edited January 19, 2010 by Wild Bill

[charter.rights]

The bad feeling has little or nothing to do with the validity of the land claims. It comes from the SN protesters tactics, not their justifications. Knocking out the electricity didn't inconvenience anyone at Queens Park. Virtually ALL of the protest tactics hurt the citizens of the town! In effect, they were used as cannon fodder.

Another of your lies.....There have been no suspects in the event that saw a vehicle driven into the substation. It could have easily been Caledonians that were causing all the ruckus as it could have been native protesters.

I could have respected the protesters more if even ONE ATV had roared through McGUINTY'S back yard one night!

The ATVs were no in anyone's backyard. They were being driven on the DCE property that was behind everyone's property.

As I've said many times, the SN protesters explanation seemed to be "Sorry for punching you in the face but hey, don't blame me! Your governments MADE me do it! After you wipe the blood from your nose you really should be joining me on my side of the protest line!"

Not that I advocate violence but provocation was coming from both sides.

Targeting innocents is simple terrorism, by definition. Revenge should be targeted specifically at the individuals who have wronged you. If someone punches you in the face it is illogical to think you should punch back at anyone of the same race. You should punch the specific individual who hit you first! Frankly, I find the SN protest tactics to be racist in themselves. Actions define you. It doesn't matter if you are a member of a minority group yourself. The most racist man I ever met was a Hindu.

Your violent thinking is evident. Revenge is never justified. And I don't recall any "innocents" being targeted. Those that were harassed had involved themselves in the DCE protests on their own accord.

When you start telling the truth, then you might be believed However, as long as you keep digging this hole, you are becoming less creditible - as a rational human being - all the time.

[Popeye]

Of course many times (if not most of the time) the OPP had to stand and face the out of control Caledonians who were causing most of the trouble on the ground.

The longer everyone or anyone stand firmly pointing a finger at another stating that "it's theirs for the blame" this will simply go on and on. There is no doubt in my mind that residents of Caledonia gave as good as they got - but not better.

Have you seen much video footage of what the images look like when the camera was pointed the other way? I have. I have it. It will never meet the internet because it would only serve to make matters worse, not better.

It isn't even that. In spite of Bill's wild accusations there were in fact many charges laid against natives who got out of hand. The fact they weren't arrested on the spot deludes people into thinking no action was taken. The OPP do not arrest people during a protest where it may escalate into violence. And so the evidence was collected and charges laid after everyone calmed down.

There have been well over 100 charges laid against native and non-native alike over this dispute. As I stated earlier, it's called discretion. The OPP have done one helluva job managing this mess. I see no two-tier justice here, and my eyesight is just fine.

Wild Bill is just a miserable old man - we all know the type - any he is just trying to find comfort in his lies and delusions. Let him be. Real people know exactly what really happened there.....and we even know the lies that Brown and Chatwell said to get paid off. Brownie caused most of his own trouble living there, and no doubt he will continue to from a distance.

In the moment that any one person finds that there is no compassion left for any person, perception is lost. Nothing personal charter.rights, but everyone matters...like 'em or not.

Let's all work with what we have to work with, not with what we don't have.

[Popeye]

The bad feeling has little or nothing to do with the validity of the land claims. It comes from the SN protesters tactics, not their justifications. Knocking out the electricity didn't inconvenience anyone at Queens Park. Virtually ALL of the protest tactics hurt the citizens of the town! In effect, they were used as cannon fodder.

I will suggest to you that if you have information leading to the arrest of the individual(s) responsible for the vandalism to the hydro sub-station in Caledonia that you contact the OPP. There is a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the individual(s) responsible. If you have information that could potentially close the file for the OPP, I suggest you contact them ASAP and collect your 50K

I could have respected the protesters more if even ONE ATV had roared through McGUINTY'S back yard one night!

I'd have respected McGuinty if he'd at least had the nads to set foot in this area...it IS McGuinty's 'back yard'. It's also the elephant in the room that he and his federal counterparts refuse to address.

As I've said many times, the SN protesters explanation seemed to be "Sorry for punching you in the face but hey, don't blame me! Your governments MADE me do it! After you wipe the blood from your nose you really should be joining me on my side of the protest line!"

Certainly the meaning was completely lost in what Six Nations tried to tell the residents of Caledonia. Their spokespeople (much like those who emerged from Caledonia) were believed to be more self serving than anything. I don't believe that was the intent of any of them. I look at it this way; when leadership is scarce, blind, dumb and mute, something will fill the void eventually.

All are guilty in this regards.

Targeting innocents is simple terrorism, by definition. Revenge should be targeted specifically at the individuals who have wronged you. If someone punches you in the face it is illogical to think you should punch back at anyone of the same race. You should punch the specific individual who hit you first! Frankly, I find the SN protest tactics to be racist in themselves. Actions define you. It doesn't matter if you are a member of a minority group yourself. The most racist man I ever met was a Hindu.

Terrorism by defintion?

Have you read the small print on your home insurance policy lately? I'm talking post 9-11 here... Caledonia and Terrorism? GMAFB! Yes, many many surreal things happened in this town. But if I'm going to subscribe to the 'they are terrorists!' mindset then am I not also subscribing to the ideology that the Crown of Canada in right is supporting terrorism homegrown style? PLEASE STOP already.

And not that I'm trying to compete with you here, but we all live with racism every f'n day. We just don't call it out or say it out loud and clear. It's the elephant in the room and we all know it in our 'political correctness' to avoid being persecuted ourselves....racism at it's finest.

Back to Fantino, I seriously doubt if this lawsuit will go anywhere. There will be some legal trick that will get Fantino off the hook or more likely, make sure the trial never goes ahead anyway. McGuinty is just looking to provide some appearance of process. It's starting to get close to election time and this suit could drag out until that time. Meanwhile, Caledonia has become a regular item in all the national papers. McGuinty has some serious worries for the next election.

This is not a lawsuit against Fantino, its a criminal charge brought by a private citizen. I agree with you that it will not go anywhere but for one simple reason; it doesn't serve the public's intrest.

McGuinty is mum on the issue as he should be. Law enforcement and government work at arm's length. Neither will discuss any issue before the court so don't hold your breath waiting to hear what they (either of them) have to say in the MSM.

As for your comment that Caledonia has "become a regular item in all the national papers" comment; you do realize that the next big issue will surpass this in the media as soon as it rears it's head right? McGuinty has some serious worries for the next election all right...he might win again. Then he will have 4 more years of trying to hide/fix what started in Caledonia and Six Nations on his watch. I'm almost tempted to vote for his party just to watch the fireworks, shuffling, hiding and the 'now you see him, now you won't' workings of his leadership!

He will want to do all he can to bury this one!

I have no argument for you on this statement because I think you are right. That is what government does. Bury it. At least we have the Freedom of Information Act, and it works if one has patience and persistance.

[charter.rights]

In the moment that any one person finds that there is no compassion left for any person, perception is lost. Nothing personal charter.rights, but everyone matters...like 'em or not.

Let's all work with what we have to work with, not with what we don't have.

There is no need for compassion for heretics and self-saboteurs. WB and Brownie both fit into their respective categories. I will reserve compassion for those who need it and not those that fabricate their own misery.

[Popeye]

There is no need for compassion for heretics and self-saboteurs. WB and Brownie both fit into their respective categories. I will reserve compassion for those who need it and not those that fabricate their own misery.

Calm down already!

Take the personal crap out of it and answer me this, what would you have done in their shoes if you were unarmed with the information and knowledge that you now possess? Would you have written the book differently without the knowledge of what you have NOW? Honest question for you charter.rights... Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 no matter who is reading through the glass, and "Hindsight" is the last name of more sofa coaches than I can count in both Caledonia and Six Nations.

If you are willing to "reserve compassion for those who need it and not those that fabricate their own misery" then I will suggest to you that you miss much in life and your perspective is skewed to a degree.

Don't like me if you so choose. It's not my place to convince you. You liked me well enough when you spoke with me 3 and 4 times ago face to face.

What happened?

[Oleg Bach]

Natives are simply intergenerational prisoners of war. Some take well to captivity and other as we see perish with our great food and endless supply of dope and booze not to mention our wonderful highly evolved phoney Christian culture...I wished a drunken native a happy new year - he said that was nice - then I wished him a Merry Christmas - He said that was a horrible thing to say - I guess after getting screwed in the ass with Jesus by missionaries with no respect for themselves or others left a bitter taste in their mouths.

[charter.rights]

Calm down already!

Take the personal crap out of it and answer me this, what would you have done in their shoes if you were unarmed with the information and knowledge that you now possess? Would you have written the book differently without the knowledge of what you have NOW? Honest question for you charter.rights... Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 no matter who is reading through the glass, and "Hindsight" is the last name of more sofa coaches than I can count in both Caledonia and Six Nations.

If you are willing to "reserve compassion for those who need it and not those that fabricate their own misery" then I will suggest to you that you miss much in life and your perspective is skewed to a degree.

Don't like me if you so choose. It's not my place to convince you. You liked me well enough when you spoke with me 3 and 4 times ago face to face.

What happened?

I would have done (and in fact did do) what the majority of Caledonians did. Sit back, and start trying to find out what the REAL issue was. I found it too and it has nothing to do with what fear mongers and whiners like Wild Bill exemplify.

Compassion and other the emotions that reared their ugly heads during the Caledonian Friday night rallies have never had a place in any legal issue. The fact is we now know that Haldimand County, the province and the federal government broke the law, and have continued to break the law in many similar circumstances. The sooner people get that the sooner this will calm down in their own fear-parasitic minds. I advocate for those who have something to offer towards reaching solutions, not those who are part of the problem.

And no we have never met. You must have me confused.

[Oleg Bach]

Fantino is Italian correct? All Italians who grow successful in any land resort to a bit of crimminal activity..It's tradition..and I suppose that Fantino is still not fully reformed of his genetic heritage..He can't help being a crook - The whole holy Roman Empire including the Vatican are a crimminal race - they executed Jesus the Christ and blamed it on the Jews - blaming the Indians is not a stretch at this point in time.

[Popeye]

Natives are simply intergenerational prisoners of war. Some take well to captivity and other as we see perish with our great food and endless supply of dope and booze not to mention our wonderful highly evolved phoney Christian culture...I wished a drunken native a happy new year - he said that was nice - then I wished him a Merry Christmas - He said that was a horrible thing to say - I guess after getting screwed in the ass with Jesus by missionaries with no respect for themselves or others left a bitter taste in their mouths.

You need help. And maybe someone to take your keyboard away from time to time.

[Oleg Bach]

You need help. And maybe someone to take your keyboard away from time to time.

You are going to help me are you..that's great - take me out to lunch tomorrow and maybe supply the street car fair so I can perform at the Haiti benefit contest tomorrow - that would be useful of you. Yes - my friend I love being reckless with the key boards..it sport and an an exercise for me _ I know when I am sounding nuts and I also know when I am spot on - worry about me when I get to the point of being a luntic and NOT knowing it.

[Popeye]

I would have done (and in fact did do) what the majority of Caledonians did. Sit back, and start trying to find out what the REAL issue was.

Ummm.....your statement is based in "Hindsight". There is no possible way that you could speak to what the "majority of Caledonians did" unless you found this for your self after speaking with all of everyone in Caledonia. While you were busy sitting back and starting to try and find out what the REAL issue was, others were already busy working quietly and steadily to move forward within hours of the Feb 28 date.

I found it too and it has nothing to do with what fear mongers and whiners like Wild Bill exemplify.

What did you find? You do not say. I asked you to keep the personal crap out of it.

Compassion and other the emotions that reared their ugly heads during the Caledonian Friday night rallies have never had a place in any legal issue. The fact is we now know that Haldimand County, the province and the federal government broke the law, and have continued to break the law in many similar circumstances. The sooner people get that the sooner this will calm down in their own fear-parasitic minds. I advocate for those who have something to offer towards reaching solutions, not those who are part of the problem.

I choose peace. Is that a "fear-parasitic mind" to you?

I choose to acknowledge that the land dispute is an on-going issue in Caledonia and Six Nations.

I choose to talk to, and listen to, as many people as possible. That is what garners perspective. It is easy to "advocate for those who have something to offer towards reaching solutions" but it isn't easy to find people who are willing to work toward finding workable solutions for all involved, personal likes/views aside. You know this to be true because everyone does IN FACT matter. Have you read the International Declaration of Human Rights and Freedoms lately?

And no we have never met. You must have me confused.

Yes we have and no I'm not.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Popeye

[Oleg Bach]

Intrigue....mmmmm - I hear you can use it as bait to catch the minds of the bored and powerful.

[Popeye]

You are going to help me are you..that's great - take me out to lunch tomorrow and maybe supply the street car fair so I can perform at the Haiti benefit contest tomorrow - that would be useful of you. Yes - my friend I love being reckless with the key boards..it sport and an an exercise for me _ I know when I am sounding nuts and I also know when I am spot on - worry about me when I get to the point of being a luntic and NOT knowing it.

Good on you for the Haiti benefit tomorrow. If I could hand you the street car fare to get to the benefit I would.

[Oleg Bach]

Good on you for the Haiti benefit tomorrow. If I could hand you the street car fare to get to the benefit I would.

I like to be dramatic - I will wangle what I need tomorrow..always do. I think I will skip the loud rocking electric bit and do my old traditional accoustic set..I am very thankful for the privledge of actually using my ability to generate something - It's great that the young dudes putting the thing on thought of me - but I always make them sound good. There will be great spirit in the air tomorrow and I have lots of that to add..in fact I am the richest man in the world in that department.

[Oleg Bach]

Good night and THANKS.. You lifted me up - and in turn I will lift up someone else and benevolence will spread. I really appreciate your gesture.

[charter.rights]

Ummm.....your statement is based in "Hindsight". There is no possible way that you could speak to what the "majority of Caledonians did" unless you found this for your self after speaking with all of everyone in Caledonia. While you were busy sitting back and starting to try and find out what the REAL issue was, others were already busy working quietly and steadily to move forward within hours of the Feb 28 date.

What did you find? You do not say. I asked you to keep the personal crap out of it.

I choose peace. Is that a "fear-parasitic mind" to you?

I choose to acknowledge that the land dispute is an on-going issue in Caledonia and Six Nations.

I choose to talk to, and listen to, as many people as possible. That is what garners perspective. It is easy to "advocate for those who have something to offer towards reaching solutions" but it isn't easy to find people who are willing to work toward finding workable solutions for all involved, personal likes/views aside. You know this to be true because everyone does IN FACT matter. Have you read the International Declaration of Human Rights and Freedoms lately?

Yes we have and no I'm not.

Yes you are confused. I am not who you think I am, nor do you have a clue. We have never met and you are guessing and speculating. I know that game. I invented it.

I have hardly stood back and watch it unfold. I took the time and the patience to look up facts and understand them. I interviewed Elders and protesters alike. I talk to constitutional lawyers and academic historians and studied archives and maps galore. I followed law case after case, memo and letter after letter from 1700 on and recognized that what we have been told about land ownership, deeds, and treaties is a lie. I found out that Six Nations is not only morally justified in taking back their land, but they have a strong legal case for it. That is why the government did not act. Because the Crown knows the real legal history and they have little except obfuscation and stalling to defend themselves - us - from the inevitable rights over land that Six Nations really have. That doesn't scare me because I know that they have a much better way than proroguing their government because they don't like what is being said about them.

Peace? You don't know the true meaning. I prefer the Haudenosaunee version which prescribes that Peace cannot be present without also holding Righteousness and Good Mindedness. According to their Great Law that means that from time to time one must take action (and not reaction) and that one's skin must be thick enough to accept all the criticism that will come for doing the "right thing". Passivity is not peaceful and more often than not it is really aggressiveness as we now see in your latest tirade.

You have no moral authority here, so take your own advice and stop making it personal. Nor are you a moderator so I suggest you tone down the personal attacks before the mods are asked to intervene. If they have a problem with my posts no doubt I will hear about it, but so far they are content that I am within the rules and guidelines.

What you sow you will also reap. Take a lesson.

[Popeye]

Yes you are confused. I am not who you think I am, nor do you have a clue. We have never met and you are guessing and speculating. I know that game. I invented it.

And you are in a panic. Calm down.

I have hardly stood back and watch it unfold.

Nobody said you did, but by your own words below you didn't intervene when the shyte was truly hitting the fan.

I took the time and the patience to look up facts and understand them.

Which facts? Who's understanding? You do not say, but I'll surmise that you are speaking of aboriginal peoples rights. I'm glad that you found the time to educate yourself on the rights of aboriginal peoples and now find that you have the right to educated everyone else on aboriginal peoples rights. Do you not see how that can be part of the problem and not part of the solution?? It's the ol' "I know better for you".

I interviewed Elders and protesters alike. I talk to constitutional lawyers and academic historians and studied archives and maps galore. I followed law case after case, memo and letter after letter from 1700 on and recognized that what we have been told about land ownership, deeds, and treaties is a lie. I found out that Six Nations is not only morally justified in taking back their land, but they have a strong legal case for it. That is why the government did not act. Because the Crown knows the real legal history and they have little except obfuscation and stalling to defend themselves - us - from the inevitable rights over land that Six Nations really have. That doesn't scare me because I know that they have a much better way than proroguing their government because they don't like what is being said about them.

You talked to people? Did you listen? If you did, did you listen to hear or did you listen for the sake of listening? If you listened to anything that was spoken to you, you would know that nothing is more sacred than the truth...all of it...no matter how ugly or unsettling or against that basis of truth.

Peace? You don't know the true meaning.

"Peace" is a gift that comes found from within. It is not loosely found in the action or word of any man to prove anything.

I prefer the Haudenosaunee version which prescribes that Peace cannot be present without also holding Righteousness and Good Mindedness. According to their Great Law that means that from time to time one must take action (and not reaction) and that one's skin must be thick enough to accept all the criticism that will come for doing the "right thing". Passivity is not peaceful and more often than not it is really aggressiveness as we now see in your latest tirade.

You prefer the Haudenosaunee version? What is this "According to THEIR Great Law..."??? You either believe it and own it or you don't. I choose that which is true to me, the seven. It is no different than any other belief system. We all have choices.

You have no moral authority here, so take your own advice and stop making it personal.

Neither do you. The moral high road is a tough road to climb sometimes and often lonely.

Nor are you a moderator so I suggest you tone down the personal attacks before the mods are asked to intervene.

No, I'm not a moderator and neither are you. Suggest away. I have no problem should they "intervene".

If they have a problem with my posts no doubt I will hear about it, but so far they are content that I am within the rules and guidelines.

So it is safe for me to say that you have not stepped beyond those rules and guidelines to this point, but you are prepared to push the limit talking to me. What's the matter charter.rights?

YES I HAVE MET YOU. More than once. Mostly on Six Nations Territory.

What you sow you will also reap. Take a lesson.

Is that a threat?

[charter.rights]

And you are in a panic. Calm down.

Nobody said you did, but by your own words below you didn't intervene when the shyte was truly hitting the fan.

Which facts? Who's understanding? You do not say, but I'll surmise that you are speaking of aboriginal peoples rights. I'm glad that you found the time to educate yourself on the rights of aboriginal peoples and now find that you have the right to educated everyone else on aboriginal peoples rights. Do you not see how that can be part of the problem and not part of the solution?? It's the ol' "I know better for you".

You talked to people? Did you listen? If you did, did you listen to hear or did you listen for the sake of listening? If you listened to anything that was spoken to you, you would know that nothing is more sacred than the truth...all of it...no matter how ugly or unsettling or against that basis of truth.

"Peace" is a gift that comes found from within. It is not loosely found in the action or word of any man to prove anything.

You prefer the Haudenosaunee version? What is this "According to THEIR Great Law..."??? You either believe it and own it or you don't. I choose that which is true to me, the seven. It is no different than any other belief system. We all have choices.

Neither do you. The moral high road is a tough road to climb sometimes and often lonely.

No, I'm not a moderator and neither are you. Suggest away. I have no problem should they "intervene".

So it is safe for me to say that you have not stepped beyond those rules and guidelines to this point, but you are prepared to push the limit talking to me. What's the matter charter.rights?

YES I HAVE MET YOU. More than once. Mostly on Six Nations Territory.

Is that a threat?

I have been engaged in this since the beginning (and much before). You are pretty naive if you believe that this is all about Six Nations. Our politicians and educators need the lessons as well. And getting heretics and mischief makers out of the way is a very important job.

Yep it is a threat (WAFI).....God kills don't you know? (As if....)

You are so so wrong. I haven't been to Six Nations in over 4 years. But I have had almost constant contact with many people from there who are "on the ground".

So there you have it. We have never met. You are delusional if you believe otherwise. You are conflicted, dear.

Edited January 23, 2010 by charter.rights