Olympic torch relay rejigged amid protest, but modified Six Nations sh

[Smallc]

Well, Canada (and like every other country) wasn't designed with a participatory democracy, and that's just the way it is.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Smallc

[charter.rights]

Well, Canada (and like every other country) wasn't designed with a participatory democracy, and that's just the way it is.

Of course it wasn't designed with a true democracy either.

[Smallc]

That's right, this isn't a true democracy, there are very few of those because by and large they don't work.

[charter.rights]

That's right, this isn't a true democracy, there are very few of those because by and large they don't work.

Ha ha ha ha That makes you either a communist or a fascist....which is it?

[Smallc]

It doesn't make me either. I believe in representative government, specifically, one involving a parliamentary system. I don't believe in the democracy which you seem to idolize.

[Bugs]

I think the real issue is WHY, were the warriors not liking the torch to enter the reserve? Is it because they view there reserve as a seperate sovereign nation and thus the olympic games in Canada, arn't their olympic games, even though a handful of natives out west were helping host the ceremonies -- or is it that they don't like the BC natives?

I suspect most of the residents would look at the torch relay coming into their community as a positive thing. Their Council was onside with it.

People generally like to pretend that the 'militants' speak for the natives of Canada. That is not the situation. These militants, in fact, often challenge the traditional authority in the communities, as they have here.

In fact, the Six Nations are the one group of natives that is different from other natives. They have no 'aboriginal right' to their land -- they got their land from the English monarch, and their forebearers immigrated here, like the rest of us. They have always been the most economically successful of native groups because they have valuable skills, often with heavy machinery, and big construction. Even this 'demonstration' isn't about anything real. "Stolen land!" indeed. It's just the militants twisting Canada's tail. It's just one group arbitrarily ruining the plans of another group.

If natives aren't citizens of Canada, why are we giving these non-taxpayers over $10,000 in benefits, per capita?

[charter.rights]

In fact, the Six Nations are the one group of natives that is different from other natives. They have no 'aboriginal right' to their land -- they got their land from the English monarch, and their forebearers immigrated here, like the rest of us. They have always been the most economically successful of native groups because they have valuable skills, often with heavy machinery, and big construction. Even this 'demonstration' isn't about anything real. "Stolen land!" indeed. It's just the militants twisting Canada's tail. It's just one group arbitrarily ruining the plans of another group.

If natives aren't citizens of Canada, why are we giving these non-taxpayers over $10,000 in benefits, per capita?

Incorrect. Southern Ontario - where the Six Nations reside - still belongs to them. The Mitchell Map 1757 clearly shows Six Nations in possession of southern Ontario and according to the Royal Proclamation 1763, no surrender or cede from Six Nations to the British (or Canada) has ever occurred.

There has been much wait placed on the Haldimand Proclamation1784 where the British mentioned they "purchased a convenient tract of land" from the Mississauga. (In 1757 the Mississauga are noted to be the 8th member of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy - The Six Nations Confederacy). There was no surrender as required under the Royal Proclamation 1763 so the British did not gain control over what was (and still is ) Six Nations Territory. So the British merely paid the Mississauga a relocation fee in order to satisfy Six Nations full and complete occupancy of the Haldimand Tract.

As it stands, southern Ontario still belongs under the territorial jurisdiction of the Six Nations. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects them from being harassed - including tax, law, movement and hunting. Essentially we have no communal rights to the land here and Six Nations holds all the cards.

[Smallc]

As it stands, southern Ontario still belongs under the territorial jurisdiction of the Six Nations.

As usual, false. I challenge you to find on any world political map that the land in fact is not under the control of the Crown of Canada.

[charter.rights]

As usual, false. I challenge you to find on any world political map that the land in fact is not under the control of the Crown of Canada.

Myth.

Legally, southern Ontario is still Six Nations territory and under the ruling that stems from Chippewas of Sarnia v. Canada it is up to the Crown to prove that a valid surrender took place.

As usual you don't know what you are talking about.

BTW I challenge you to provide any world political map where it it states that land is under the control of the Crown of Canada. Showing a map of Canada and one that states all land is under the Crown of Canada are different things.

Here is your map: World Political Map(first google search too)

Sorry....no "Owned by the Crown of Canada" Just another of your many myths.

Edited December 26, 2009 by charter.rights

[Smallc]

Whatever you say. The land is Canadian....to think otherwise is simply loopy, which, is par for the course I suppose.

[charter.rights]

Your wishful thinking will only take you further into dreamland.

THE FACTS are clear. Your OPINION is obtuse. And you failed your own challenge with a simple Google search. That tells me that you are not a person of integrity or of substance, but rather depend on winning a debate by whining.

That doesn't cut it here.

Edited December 26, 2009 by charter.rights

[Smallc]

I'd love to do this again with you, but the fact that you have trouble realizing that the lack of "Six Nations" or some such on a world map doesn't help your argument kind of shows that arguing with you is pointless. That's ok though. The reserves can go on their merry way. I'm sure they'll make out well on their own.

[charter.rights]

I'd love to do this again with you, but the fact that you have trouble realizing that the lack of "Six Nations" or some such on a world map doesn't help your argument kind of shows that arguing with you is pointless. That's ok though. The reserves can go on their merry way. I'm sure they'll make out well on their own.

The "Six Nations" appears on the Royal Proclamation map 1763. That's all that matters as far as "Canada" is concerned because "Canada" has no jurisdiction over Six Nations land and over 70% of the rest of land we call Canada.

And whereas great Frauds and Abuses have been committed in purchasing Lands of the Indians, to the great Prejudice of our Interests. and to the great Dissatisfaction of the said Indians: In order, therefore, to prevent such Irregularities for the future, and to the end that the Indians may be convinced of our Justice and determined Resolution to remove all reasonable Cause of Discontent, We do. with the Advice of our Privy Council strictly enjoin and require. that no private Person do presume to make any purchase from the said Indians of any Lands reserved to the said Indians, within those parts of our Colonies where, We have thought proper to allow Settlement: but that. if at any Time any of the Said Indians should be inclined to dispose of the said Lands, the same shall be Purchased only for Us, in our Name, at some public Meeting or Assembly of the said Indians, to be held for that Purpose by the Governor or Commander in Chief of our Colony respectively within which they shall lie: and in case they shall lie within the limits of any Proprietary Government. they shall be purchased only for the Use and in the name of such Proprietaries, conformable to such Directions and Instructions as We or they shall think proper to give for that Purpose: And we do. by the Advice of our Privy Council, declare and enjoin, that the Trade with the said Indians shall be free and open to all our Subjects whatever. provided that every Person who may incline to Trade with the said Indians do take out a Licence for carrying on such Trade from the Governor or Commander in Chief of any of our Colonies respectively where such Person shall reside. and also give Security to observe such Regulations as We shall at any Time think fit. by ourselves or by our Commissaries to be appointed for this Purpose, to direct and appoint for the Benefit of the said Trade:

According to Chippewas of Sarnia v. Canada unless it can be shown that the several tests for surrender have been fully complied with by the Crown, a surrender is deemed not to have occurred.

That means that even though Canada claims sovereignty over certain regions in North America, they have no authority over the land and only over "the subjects" who occupy First Nations territory.

And whereas it is just and reasonable, and essential to our Interest, and the Security of our Colonies, that the several Nations or Tribes of Indians with whom We are connected, and who live under our Protection, should not be molested or disturbed in the Possession of such Parts of Our Dominions and Territories as, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are reserved to them. or any of them, as their Hunting Grounds.--We do therefore, with the Advice of our Privy Council, declare it to be our Royal Will and Pleasure. that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our Colonies of Quebec, East Florida. or West Florida, do presume, upon any Pretence whatever, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass any Patents for Lands beyond the Bounds of their respective Governments. as described in their Commissions: as also that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our other Colonies or Plantations in America do presume for the present, and until our further Pleasure be known, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass Patents for any Lands beyond the Heads or Sources of any of the Rivers which fall into the Atlantic Ocean from the West and North West, or upon any Lands whatever, which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us as aforesaid, are reserved to the said Indians, or any of them.

The Law is The Law....

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

Of course "recognized" means that southern Ontario IS Six Nations territory

Since you are no closer to the truth of The Facts, I would conclude that you subscribe to Myth Monthly Magazine and are the feature columnist for the "Lies We Tell Ourselves" column. Surely I wold like to do this with you but alas I do not like taking on an unarmed person. Go on your way Chicken Little...

Edited December 26, 2009 by charter.rights

[Griz]

Whatever you say. The land is Canadian....to think otherwise is simply loopy, which, is par for the course I suppose.

Smallc you're an example of, or your comments as well as others, as to how the education system has failed miserably. Charter is correct with her comments and of course this is what I was referring to when I use the term "squatters." The RP of 1763, clearly states that treaties were to be signed. Because this never happened the governemtns are squatting, and with their history of treatment to aboriginal people--if you check some of my previous posts, I used the term "land squattin terrorists" For some reason, history started for your brainwashed, boat-people minds from Europe around BNA Act of 1867 and you conveniently forget the RP of 1763 to cover -up your squatter tracks. Give your head a shake, the indians are the real Canadians, and all you boat people from Europe are visitors who never left and are land squatters.

[Smallc]

I guess you'll have to rip the aboriginal blood out of my body before you send back the part that belongs to the boat people.

[charter.rights]

I guess you'll have to rip the aboriginal blood out of my body before you send back the part that belongs to the boat people.

Another of your childish myths. There is no such thing as "aboriginal blood". It is all blood - red and sticky. The idea of blood quantum and ancient Mohawk Great Great Great Grandmothers is a fantasy made up by delusion people.

I'm told either you are native or you are not - there is no in-between, or half breeds or part Indian. Obviously by the way you present yourself, you clearly have no claim to native ancestry (except perhaps in a time of convenience).

Edited December 27, 2009 by charter.rights

[Smallc]

I think you're better off on ignore. You're questioning who I am based on your narrow preconceived notions. I have nothing further to say to you.

[charter.rights]

No. I am questioning your statements and refuting your myths. Ignore would be the best thing since it scares you that your foundation of myth might unravel if were it were challenged any more...

[Shwa]

I guess you'll have to rip the aboriginal blood out of my body before you send back the part that belongs to the boat people.

Blood quantum is not an original indigenous concept in any of the indigenous cultures I have come across. However, it does appear to have well known applications in European history - royalty, nobility, etc., and it is a convenient utility for the purposes of the Indian Act.

[Smallc]

Charter rights is just being...charter rights.

[Bugs]

Yeah that's it: naive.

There are guns just out of sight at a C&W bar on a Saturday night too. They have illegal stills going on that sell out of illegal boozecans all over the province after 1 AM. No taxes, $billions are involved.

They also smuggle guns and then store them illegally too. And don't get me started on those mullets!

Ally of 'six nations' - 'warrior society' Really crime group

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.mackenzieinstitute.com/1994/ ... ilure6.htm

The Warrior's Society and the Black Market

The current opinion of the Warrior’s Society held by many Iroquois is perhaps best expressed in a statement issued by two of the Haudenosaunee [iroquois] Chiefs of Confederacy in May 1990 — two months before the Oka Crisis began. The remaining traditional chiefs supported the statement.

"In recent months, the principles of the Great Law and Mohawk sovereignty have been misrepresented and manipulated by self-proclaimed "Warrior’s Society" to justify corrupt[tion of] activities and privileges of the Haudenosaunee. Some of these corrupt activities include gambling, cigarette smuggling, drug trafficking and the acquisition of weapons for warfare.

All types of gambling, smuggling and drug trafficking that take advantage of the free border crossing rights, non-tax status of the Haudenosaunee, and whose protection involves the use of weapons in these illegal activities, can not be allowed to continue under the name of the "Great Law", or under Mohawk Sovereignty or Haudenosaunee Sovereignty."

http://www.canadaka.net/forums/native-canadian-f48/ally-of-six-nations-warrior-society-really-crime-group-t15433.html

This comes from the time of Oka, a generation ago. The current crop of 'Warriors' has evolved. They could now be compared to an outlaw motorcycle club, and they hold the legitimate tribal authorities in contempt. At their core are natives with US military experience. In fact, they outgut the OPP. They are into black market cigarettes, on-line gambling, and various other activities. The take from black market cigarettes alone in the 100's of $millions.

They conduct businesses that would be legal if you or I engaged in them, another example of redemptive Canadian racial justice in action.

If you don't think this is part of the problem, then, yeah, I would say naive is a good word.

[Bugs]

The grassroots do not elect them. Most First Nations chiefs get in with less than 15% of the eligible vote. 85% of the grassroots do not vote in what they consider foreign elections and instead support the traditional systems where they are in place.

Most band members do not live on their own reservation. A majority of them spend most of their time in cities and towns.

The people on the reservation are the ones who vote, and the ones who should vote.

Whatever lengths you will go to justify racial segregation of our rights, it still comes down to this -- the Warriors' Society has NO RIGHTS whatever!

[charter.rights]

Most band members do not live on their own reservation. A majority of them spend most of their time in cities and towns.

The people on the reservation are the ones who vote, and the ones who should vote.

Whatever lengths you will go to justify racial segregation of our rights, it still comes down to this -- the Warriors' Society has NO RIGHTS whatever!

{sarcasm}A lot you know..{/sarcasm}

All members of a Band - including those living off territory - can vote in Band elections.

The Warrior Society are "defenders" of the land and those involved in crime are not part of the society. Anyway what is known as the "Warrior Society" is essentially a ghost invented by the RCMP to criminalize opposition to government imperialism. No doubt you are likely a fascist looking for support for your cause. You won't find it here.

BTW Logging on posing as another member when you have been banned is against the rules. How's are the conditions of your probation affecting you?

Edited December 28, 2009 by charter.rights

[Shwa]

If you don't think this is part of the problem, then, yeah, I would say naive is a good word.

So gun totin, booze sellin, multi-million dollar cigarette hawkin illegal and rightless rebel Mohawks were responsible for diverting the Olympic torch relay at Six Nations?

Louis Hall would have been proud... I guess.

[Shwa]

In Six Nations the big meanie thugs diverted the Olympic flame relay to the Bingo Hall, but in Kitchener they beat the living crap out of the torch bearer. On scene medical attention! Violence! Thuggery! 200 protesters!

The perp was one Brittney Simpson. Sounds like a country and western fan if you ask me. A C-Dub in K-Dub. If you are in Kitchener, run for the hills! But take a little time to browse in downtown St. Jacobs on your way out of town. Good bargains there this time of year...

Edited December 28, 2009 by Shwa