Proposal for education reform for the province of Ontario

[Machjo]

I'll present a proposal in the next post of this thread. It's only a brainstorm and an attempt to answer to the concerns of various cultural communities as well as to the right and left of the political spectru. As a result, it's only natural that it's not likely to suit everyone perfectly, but might be something that could atract at least a few. I'll post it next.

[Machjo]

Proposal to promote the local indigenous language in Ontario schools

Section 1: Language choice in school

1.1The Ontario Ministry of Education (MoE), a local indigenous education authority (hereinafter referred to as LIEA), or a local sign-language education authority (hereinafter referred to as LSLEA) shall grant each school the freedom to teach the second-language of its choice, either to be chosen among course plans that have already been approved by the MoE, LIEA, or LSLEA or to be created by the school as a course plan to be presented to the MoE, LIEA, or LSLEA for approval, to be approved based on the pedagogical soundness of the course plan.

1.2The MoE, LIEA, or LSLEA shall grant each pupil the freedom to choose to be tested in the second-language of his choice to fulfil compulsory graduation requirements, to be chosen among tests already approved by the MoE, LIEA, or LSLEA.

Rationale: The Hague Recommendations Regarding The Education Rights of National Minorities & Explanatory Notes (http://www.osce.org/documents/hcnm/1996/10/2700_en.pdf)

The Universal Declaration of Linguistic Rights (http://www.unesco.org/cpp/uk/declarations/linguistic.pdf)

United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html)

What is Sign Language, Linguistic Rights in the UN Recommendations and Conventions, and the Status of Sign Languages in the UN Member States (www.un.org/esa/socdev/enable//rights/ahc5docs/ahc5wfdside.ppt)

Section 2: School choice

2.1The MoE shall provide a school voucher to parents for each school pupil under their care, to be accepted in any voucher school (i.e. Any school participating in the voucher programme).

Rationale: The Hague Recommendations Regarding The Education Rights of National Minorities & Explanatory Notes (http://www.osce.org/documents/hcnm/1996/10/2700_en.pdf)

Universal Declaration of Human Rights (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_choice...nal_Human_Right

Section 3: School participation in the voucher programme

3.1Each state-owned school shall participate in the voucher programme.

3.2Each non-state-owned school shall be free to apply to the MoE, the LIEA, or a LSLEA for participation in the voucher programme, with the LIEA and LSLEA being free to establish their own participation requirements independently of the MoE, with the MoE honouring all applications accepted by the LIEA or LSLEA.

3.3Each non-state-owned school applying directly to the MoE for participation in the voucher programme shall:

a) charge no additional fees,

B ) select pupils on a first-come-first-served basis,

c) offer a minimum of 100 hours of Esperanto lessons per year for 6 years to pupils starting at the age of eight, and 100 hours per year of local indigenous language lessons for four years to pupils starting at the age of ten, with the local indigenous language lessons being made compulsory for all pupils proven to possess the necessary aptitude for the learning of a difficult second-language.

Rationale: The Hague Recommendations Regarding The Education Rights of National Minorities & Explanatory Notes (http://www.osce.org/documents/hcnm/1996/10/2700_en.pdf)

UNESCO Resolutions in favour of Esperanto (http://e.euroscola.free.fr/unesco-en.htm)

Research on the propaedeutic value of Esperanto (http://www.springboard2languages.org/documents/springboard_rationale.pdf)

United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html)

What is Sign Language, Linguistic Rights in the UN Recommendations and Conventions, and the Status of Sign Languages in the UN Member States (www.un.org/esa/socdev/enable//rights/ahc5docs/ahc5wfdside.ppt)

Research suggesting that sign language may be particularly useful parents of infants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Sign#Research)

Edited September 13, 2009 by Machjo

[Wild Bill]

Speaking only for myself, I would resent any portion of my taxes being spent on the teaching of any second language but French in the province of Ontario, based on the fact that only English and French are official languages of Canada. I would make an exception for the teaching of Latin and Greek as credit courses to better understand the history and roots of our official languages. I would not expect it to be mandatory for the teaching of Latin and Greek to result in full 'second language' fluency in those tongues.

I would not object to the teaching of other languages in Ontario schools, just having my taxes paying for it. If it were paid for as an afterschool course by voluntary subscription of interested parents ONLY I would have no objection to loaning the school's resources as a meeting centre.

If the proposal became a sufficiently serious enough issue it would definitely affect my choices at the ballot box.

[Machjo]

Plese ignore this post.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Machjo

[Machjo]

Speaking only for myself, I would resent any portion of my taxes being spent on the teaching of any second language but French in the province of Ontario, based on the fact that only English and French are official languages of Canada. I would make an exception for the teaching of Latin and Greek as credit courses to better understand the history and roots of our official languages. I would not expect it to be mandatory for the teaching of Latin and Greek to result in full 'second language' fluency in those tongues.

I would not object to the teaching of other languages in Ontario schools, just having my taxes paying for it. If it were paid for as an afterschool course by voluntary subscription of interested parents ONLY I would have no objection to loaning the school's resources as a meeting centre.

If the proposal became a sufficiently serious enough issue it would definitely affect my choices at the ballot box.

Thanks for the response. By the way, I've posted the proposal at Rabble.ca (very left-leaning) and Freedominion.ca (very right-leaning) so as to get a wider ideological perspective. If appropriate, would you mind if I cut and pasted your response in my other threads to explore other options?

Now onto your comments. What about the proposal of allowing for sign languages (already included in the proposal above). After all, it is very difficult for the deaf to learn sign languages, be they official or not, so would it not be helpful for some of the hearing community to learn the local sign language to help the deaf expand their network of friends and thus help them integrate better into the hearing community?

Also, concerning the Official Languages Act. That was really nothing more than pragmatic political maneuvering on the part of Trudeau to try to keep Canada together and the sovereigntist camp at bay, and not some overarching moral principle that cannot be changed. besides, so few learn their second official language well anyway, more language choice will likely not make much difference overall. Just look at Stats Can for language competence.

Also, there would be nothing in this that I could see that would violate the OLA legally. Sure it flies in the face of the spirit of the OLA (which is really just a pragmatist political spirit though), but does not violate it on legal grounds. BC and Albertal alow for much freedom on that front already, and I've heard that the Ontario Ministry of Education makes exceptions already for local indigenous languages off reserve if the local school board approves it. Add to that that learning different languages could be beneficial to international trade, diplomacy, military purposes (remember the windtalkers), and other specialized uses (sign languages are also used extensively by some scuba divers, and for other practical purposes when people are at a distance from one another and have access to binoculars, etc.).

I would be interested in your comments on this.

[Machjo]

I'd like to add tooo that considering that our indigenous languages are indigenous to Canada while French and English, along with Latin and Greek are f foreing origin, how can we not give the local indigenous language equal freedom as a second language in school. Even the ALberta school system allows for that already for Blackfoot and Cree.

[Riverwind]

how can we not give the local indigenous language equal freedom as a second language in school.

Because they are useless languages spoken nowhere outside of region where the native group lives. Languages are tools used for communication and the focus of second language education should be providing those tools. Edited September 13, 2009 by Riverwind

[Machjo]

Because they are useless languages spoken nowhere outside of region where the native group lives. Languages are tools used for communication and the focus of second language education should be providing those tools.

I take it you're monolingual? You are aware, aren't you, that language plays a major role in a person's cultural identity? Any bilingual will tell you that, regardless of the two languages he speaks, and regardless of where in the world he lives. In fact, even a monolingual witnessing the encroachment of his territory by another language will feel it. It's even been found that language conflict had contributed considerably to the conflict in the Balkans in the 90s. The idea that we should just allow the local indigenous language to be trampled underfoot is beyond me.

Now to take an example, if inglish is just a tul eniwey, yu wont maind mai speling az long az yu andirstand it, rait? personly, ai downt sii the point uv maiking the pluril of 'maus 'mais' when 'mausiz' wud du djust fain. besaidz, languidj iz not about kultur or aidenteti, bat abaut nothing mor dhan praktikl comunikaishn.

[Machjo]

By the way, Riverwind, would you mind if I quoted you? I could keep it anonymous, no problem, but would just like your permission to quote you in another forum if you don't mind.

[Machjo]

By the way, seeing that North Air actually gives hiring preference to those who know Inuktitut, and considering that Inuktitut is among the official languages of resource-rich Nunavut, it would seem that not all indigenous languages are useless depending on where you live. By the way, according to Stats Can 2006, about 8% of Nunavummiut know neither English nor French.

[Thomas Kwon]

By the way, seeing that North Air actually gives hiring preference to those who know Inuktitut, and considering that Inuktitut is among the official languages of resource-rich Nunavut, it would seem that not all indigenous languages are useless depending on where you live. By the way, according to Stats Can 2006, about 8% of Nunavummiut know neither English nor French.

If non-practical languages are to be taught in our schools, I only support Latin.

At least Latin has academic value, where as native languages...

Also, if kids are inclined to learn another language, there are Saturday schools that are operated by the school boards. Registration fee, I believe, is $20.

[Riverwind]

I take it you're monolingual? You are aware, aren't you, that language plays a major role in a person's cultural identity?

Speak two different languages on daily basis. Can read a third and have studied 2 more but not enough to have useful ability in them.

The connection between language and culture is all well and good but we are talking about languages taught in schools. If people want to 'enhance their cultural identity' they can study languages on their own time. Schools, on the other hand, should be focused on providing those second languages which will help students succeed in the world.

[Machjo]

If non-practical languages are to be taught in our schools, I only support Latin.

At least Latin has academic value, where as native languages...

From my understanding, at lest some indigenous languages in Canada are grammatically quite complex and even include grammatical elements that are not found in either French or English. Seeing that Inuktitut includes many words for snow, some of the subtleties of the word might not exist in any French or English equivalent. By the sounds of that, it woudl appear that these languages have just as much academic value as any other for those among us who love grammar. In fact, from an intellectual standpoint, it woudl likley prove even more academically valuable owing to the wider range of differences betwee, say, Algonquin and English and latin and English.

Also, if kids are inclined to learn another language, there are Saturday schools that are operated by the school boards. Registration fee, I believe, is $20.

Woudl it not be cheaper, instead of forcing them to learn French, to simply let them learn the other language instead, thus rediverting funds from French to the other language rather than adding funds on top of French, not to mention the time spent in both languages rather than one language, if we really insist on looking at it from an economic standpoint?

[Riverwind]

By the sounds of that, it woudl appear that these languages have just as much academic value as any other for those among us who love grammar.

Latin has academic value because a lot of historical texts are written in it and because science and medical fields make use of it.

Woudl it not be cheaper, instead of forcing them to learn French, to simply let them learn the other language instead, thus rediverting funds from French to the other language rather

Only if a community has a sufficient numbers to justify it. It is not practical for the school system to offer any possible second language - in most cases they have to pick one and French is the best compromise given the funding constraints. Edited September 13, 2009 by Riverwind

[Machjo]

Latin has academic value because a lot of historical texts are written in it and because science and medical fields make use of it.

That doesn't negate the academic value of the local indigenous languages for their grammatical and etymological elements alone.

Only if a community has a sufficient numbers to justify it. It is not practical for the school system to offer any possible second language - in most cases they have to pick one and French is the best compromise given the funding constraints.

I could agree with that, and that's one reason I'd proposed a voucher system. So while the proposal above would give schools the freedom to choose the second-language of their choice, they'd still have to take parents' wishes into account while making that choice.

By the way, do you mind if I shoulr quote you in other forums relatied to this same topic?

[Riverwind]

That doesn't negate the academic value of the local indigenous languages for their grammatical and etymological elements alone.

Teaching Klingon would have just as much academic value and might get students more interested.

By the way, do you mind if I shoulr quote you in other forums relatied to this same topic?

It is a public record so you don't really need my permission but if you want to keep things in context you should point out that it is the opinion of a multi-lingual person.

[Machjo]

Teaching Klingon would have just as much academic value and might get students more interested.

You're correct, but according to the original proposal presented above, state-owned schools and private schools that would apply directly to the MoE to participate in the voucher programme would be free to teach Klingon if they wanted to, the only stipulation being that they must attract parents on the free market sinse they're only source of revenue would be from the vouchers.

It is a public record so you don't really need my permission but if you want to keep things in context you should point out that it is the opinion of a multi-lingual person.

Fair enough. Thanks.

[Machjo]

Actually, instead of quoting people back and forth, I'll just link to the threads:

http://rabble.ca/babble/central-canada/ide...comment-1060477

http://www.freedominion.com.pa/phpBB2/view...29371267878a42b

[Riverwind]

the only stipulation being that they must attract parents on the free market sinse they're only source of revenue would be from the vouchers.

I believe these kinds of decisions should be made by the local community so teaching aboriginal languages is perfectly reasonable if there is community support. My concern is any general policy where communities are pressured to favour aboriginal languages over something like Mandarin.

[Machjo]

I believe these kinds of decisions should be made by the local community so teaching aboriginal languages is perfectly reasonable if there is community support. My concern is any general policy where communities are pressured to favour aboriginal languages over something like Mandarin.

As for any general policy pressuring communities to favour Aboriginal languages, even the opening post makes exception for state-owned schools, allowing them to teach the second-language of their choice according to the free market. It's not the same as decentralization, but rather deregulation.

I take it by decentralization that you're proposing that the local government should decide what second-language is to be taught. I don't know what to think of that. On the one hand, it could allow more liberal-minded communities to grant their local schools more freedom of choice in language learning, or alternatively it could allow some communities to restrict the freedom schools have in deciding what second-language to teach, as is the case now but at the provincial level.

I suppose looking at it that way, seeing that the current Ontario provincial system is quite stiffling as it is, decentralizaiton couldn't make it much worse anyway, no matter how restrictive the local government is (as it is, French is compulsory in most schools as a second-language already).

[Machjo]

By the way, Riverwind, I wouldn't mind you responding to the other arguments presented in the other threads, just to have an idea of where you stand on the arguments they present. Again, I'm mainly trying to find an acceptable synthesis beteen the right and the left, and just trying to feel the pulse on both sides of the political spectrum right now on this issue.

[Riverwind]

I take it by decentralization that you're proposing that the local government should decide what second-language is to be taught.

I make no comment on the voucher issue since I see it as a seperate issue and it does not change my argument that the decision, if made, should be bottom up rather than top down.

I also don't see it as a 'liberal vs. non-liberal' issue. If I lived in a northern community I would likely support teaching of Inuktitut. However, in Richmond, BC it would be rediculous to even propose teaching an aboriginal language.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Riverwind

[Machjo]

I make no comment on the voucher issue since I see it as a seperate issue and it does not change my argument that the decision, if made, should be bottom up rather than top down.

I also don't see it as a 'liberal vs. non-liberal' issue. If I lived in a northern community I would likely support teaching of Inuktitut. However, in Richmond, BC it would be rediculous to even propose teaching an aboriginal language.

Good points. Perhaps decentralization might be a solution.

Then again, as for promoting FN languages, I've also considered another possibility: Take money currently being spent on Offiical Bilingualism and redirect that towards the writing and publication of quality self-instruction books for FN languages that don't have such books already, then those who do want to learn these languages could do so. It might also help to depoliticize the issue. After all, those who want to learn the local indigenous language but can't owing to a lack of existent necessary resources will naturally feel the need to engage politically to promote FN languages. But if the government just made those resources available, then they'd likely be happy to just buy them, go home, study the language themselves, and bow out of the politics of it. This would likely make all sides happy., The right woudl be happy to see the left calm down a bit on this issue, and the left would just be happy to finally have access to these resources.

Perhaps that's a better solution than the complicated one I'd proposed above.

[Riverwind]

redirect that towards the writing and publication of quality self-instruction books for FN languages that don't have such books already

We live in a world where anyone with access to a computer can self publish whatever they want at zero cost. Sites like wikipedia provide a wealth of information assembled entirely by volunteers.

These tools available to any speaker of these aboriginals languages who wants to see the languages survive. If there are no volunteers creating these materials for Internet distribution then there is no way to justify spending tax dollars to create these materials.

[ToadBrother]

Speak two different languages on daily basis. Can read a third and have studied 2 more but not enough to have useful ability in them.

The connection between language and culture is all well and good but we are talking about languages taught in schools. If people want to 'enhance their cultural identity' they can study languages on their own time. Schools, on the other hand, should be focused on providing those second languages which will help students succeed in the world.

There are some pretty clear cognitive advantages to teaching young children multiple languages. Since cognitive abilities are pretty important to succeeding in the world, what's the beef?

I wish French had been enforced on me as a young kid. Maybe even something a little trickier like Greek or Latin too (those were the languages of Classical education). Heck, maybe get right out of Indo-European and teach the young ones' Mandarin.

In sub-Saharan Africa it's not uncommon for people to be able to speak four or five languages (usually their native tongue, plus some neighboring ones and French or English). I know that in places like Denmark and Germany, it's not uncommon for people to know their own language, plus close relatives (ie. Swedish, Norwegian) plus English and enough French to survive a few days in Paris.

Unfortunately, in the US and in English Canada, there's something of a fierce monoculture. We're a bit better than the Yanks, but still everyone acts like teaching other languages in school is somehow worthless or even detrimental. In the US, the very notion of teaching kids Spanish causes all the Mexican haters to go into frothing frenzies, and yet the number of Spanish speakers in New Mexico, Texas and California is growing by leaps and bounds (who knows, maybe in a century, Mexico will get back what the Americans essentially stole from them).