Liberal Backfire!

[wyly]

Now if we could just get the rest of the country to agree! We could produce Nuclear weapons in this country within a month if we wanted to, we have the Nuclear reactors already up and running...and it would certainly get the worlds attention when we tell them to STAY OUT! You don t need many..just a few subs with SLBM's on board.

I think it's better value for our defense dollars...an appropiate cliche "more bang for your buck"...the entire world would see us in a different light and pay attention to what we have to say, "the NWP is ours, keep out!"

As for the North that would be an Airforce and Navy solution...the Americans don t take us serious exactly because we don t have Nukes! Why do you think they Kiss Pakistan's Butt?

and why North Korea won't share Iraq's fate...

[Sir Bandelot]

actually Ignatieff has no choice but to distance the liberals from the conservatives, it had to be done...if the conservatives wish to cling to power they'll have to play nice to either the NDP or the Bloc which they claim they never would but have done so in the past...so it's up to the conservatives if they want to have an election, not the liberals...only the government can determine an election not the opposition...

Well of course, a non-confidence vote from the opposition will do it, in minority. As for distancing themselves from the cons, thats one thing alright but forcing an election over almost nothing, will distance the liberals right out of parliament. As in, eventual loss of party status... something which in the long run might even be a good thing. This party needs to reinvent itself. The road they're on since Martin is a dead end... no hope on the horizon with any of the current dunsosaurs.

[nicky10013]

Back to the main topic. First, the polls from the OP are not only from August but are from canada.com and the Calgary Herald. The first is owned by canWEST global news and the latter is obvious. Of course they're going to be pushing polls that show the Tories trending higher. Same with the National Post. The Post came out with an utterly ridiculous poll showing the Cons had a 10 point lead while ekos had published another poll showing them tied. Go figure.

Anywho, if we're going to take polls seriously, most polls that haven't been outliers have shown that the Liberals have only shed about a point nationally. As for the Tories regaining the lead in Ontario as being a negative for the Liberals, the Liberals were about 10 points ahead a couple of months ago so the trend for the Liberals isn't negative. For Quebec, I think the most recent Ekos poll had them drop about 7 points with all the other parties remaining static. We'll see when their next one comes out of the field whether or not that number holds up. I should say it probably won't.

All this says what anyone that isn't blinded by partisan glee of a majority knows that the two main parties are essentially tied and as always it will come down to Quebec but Ontario specifically. The trends in the GTA which have usually been Conservative have turned around since Baird said "Toronto can go fuck off." So, realistically, anything can happen. No one is winning a majority and Harper isn't safe from defeat. There are just too many undecideds to call this one already.

[nicky10013]

Well of course, a non-confidence vote from the opposition will do it, in minority. As for distancing themselves from the cons, thats one thing alright but forcing an election over almost nothing, will distance the liberals right out of parliament. As in, eventual loss of party status... something which in the long run might even be a good thing. This party needs to reinvent itself. The road they're on since Martin is a dead end... no hope on the horizon with any of the current dunsosaurs.

The worst the party has ever done is the last election and what has been mentioned before needs to be mentioned again. 1) no party has ever been punished for calling an election. 2) Ignatieff is powerless to call an election. All 3 parties need still have to vote and despite the rhetoric from all three other parties, all three other parties have an agenda to push. The ball is out of Ignatieff's court now. Whether there'll be an election simply isn't up to him.

[wyly]

Well of course, a non-confidence vote from the opposition will do it, in minority. As for distancing themselves from the cons, thats one thing alright but forcing an election over almost nothing, will distance the liberals right out of parliament. As in, eventual loss of party status... something which in the long run might even be a good thing. This party needs to reinvent itself. The road they're on since Martin is a dead end... no hope on the horizon with any of the current dunsosaurs.

non-confidence can be avoided by compromise with either the NDP, Bloc or Liberals...the NDP is willing to support a conservative government that will seek an honest middle ground...the choice is clearly the Cons to make...which is exactly what the liberals want to see happen so that they can take a hard stance in the house and be seen as a strong opposition...the liberals do not want an election, no one does but they also don't want to be seen as rubber stamping conservative policies either...the NDP are more practical and will work with anyone...

[wyly]

The worst the party has ever done is the last election and what has been mentioned before needs to be mentioned again. 1) no party has ever been punished for calling an election. 2) Ignatieff is powerless to call an election. All 3 parties need still have to vote and despite the rhetoric from all three other parties, all three other parties have an agenda to push. The ball is out of Ignatieff's court now. Whether there'll be an election simply isn't up to him.

agreed...and I don't see an election changing things much we'll still have an minority government...the only change I see coming from it is Harper stepping as leader down if cannot deliver a majority yet again...

[Alex Moore]

I will give Iggy this, at least he has a positive view of the future. At least he has some vision of where he wants to see the nation going by means of a charted pathway to prosperity. Iggy is looking beyond the short term problems we have in his position, perhaps the only candidate to do so.

I'm sorry I'm kind of jumping in here but I saw this post from earlier and couldn't help but reply.

Jerry,

What view/vision/charted pathway are you talking about? Mr. Iggnatieff has been in in country for I believe it is five years now + about one year as leader of opposition. As far as I can remember he has not identified himself with any major issue. He does not carry himself as a reformer, while also not being a conservative. he has not passed any major bills through parliament. He has not dedicated himself with anything specific. So I ask again what view/vision/charted pathway are you talking about?

The only position that I have seen Mr. Iggnatieff presenting himself with (based on his recent precamaign videos) is that he is not Harper. is that the view/vision/charted pathway you are talking about? Because I am sorry that is not a view/vision/charted pathway is really just sad.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I'm sorry I'm kind of jumping in here but I saw this post from earlier and couldn't help but reply.

Jerry,

What view/vision/charted pathway are you talking about? Mr. Iggnatieff has been in in country for I believe it is five years now + about one year as leader of opposition. As far as I can remember he has not identified himself with any major issue. He does not carry himself as a reformer, while also not being a conservative. he has not passed any major bills through parliament. He has not dedicated himself with anything specific. So I ask again what view/vision/charted pathway are you talking about?

The only position that I have seen Mr. Iggnatieff presenting himself with (based on his recent precamaign videos) is that he is not Harper. is that the view/vision/charted pathway you are talking about? Because I am sorry that is not a view/vision/charted pathway is really just sad.

Well for starters, the tag line to this campaign has already been labeled "We can do better". By itself that statement leads the average citizen to think that at the very least the plan calls for improvements to the current state of affairs. From there we can see an alternative way of doing things for the citizens that don't think we are doing well enough right now. Keep in mind that the loss of thousands of jobs in the manufacturing sector will not go well for the Conservative party. Those job losses will not simply stop, they will continue for a while yet and that means EI issues. Again not something that looks good for the Conservatives. So with one simple statement the Liberals provide the foundation for a solid campaign of positive vision. Harper is left with tweaking all the parts of the government that are not working well, including programs and service delivery. Once again this is an area that doesn't look good for the Conservatives. Harper is going to have to justify his actions with the public whereas Iggy simply says there is a better way to do all this stuff.

This time around the incumbent has the heavy lifting to do and the opposition can simply point at the problems or offer solutions the government hasn't explored. The positive vision that Iggy is putting out there is simply on the other side of the street from the reality of day to day governance and is very likely the easiest way to uproot the Conservative government.

[ToadBrother]

are you planning to convert them all to christianity...there is as much chance of snuffing out the Taliban as the americans had of defeating the Viet Cong...zero...

Pakistan seems to be doing a fairly good job in the Swat Valley.

[ToadBrother]

I'm sorry I'm kind of jumping in here but I saw this post from earlier and couldn't help but reply.

Jerry,

What view/vision/charted pathway are you talking about? Mr. Iggnatieff has been in in country for I believe it is five years now + about one year as leader of opposition. As far as I can remember he has not identified himself with any major issue. He does not carry himself as a reformer, while also not being a conservative. he has not passed any major bills through parliament. He has not dedicated himself with anything specific. So I ask again what view/vision/charted pathway are you talking about?

The only position that I have seen Mr. Iggnatieff presenting himself with (based on his recent precamaign videos) is that he is not Harper. is that the view/vision/charted pathway you are talking about? Because I am sorry that is not a view/vision/charted pathway is really just sad.

And what vision has Harper dedicated himself to? Any of the old Reform/Alliance values he publicly espoused have (for the most part, a recent video excluded) been dropped.

It strikes me that none of the party leaders have much in the way of vision right now. It's really come down to a power game, where the guy that's got it does whatever it takes to get it, and the guys that don't do everything they can to grab it from him. The only vision I'm seeing in Parliament these days is a sort of tunnel vision, while the rest of the country does the heavy lifting to get out of an economic sinkhole.

[jdobbin]

this fight can't be won, you cannot defeat an idea...it's a waste of time, lives and resources...

I was exaggerating on rationing and conscription.

My own view is that we should stick to the deadline if for no other reason that to force our allies to step up and allow us the time to get our forces re-equipped and trained. At the moment, we have 1/3 of our forces there, 1/3 who have just got back and 1/3 who are training to go. It doesn't allow for proper training and for new recruits as the forces are stretched thin.

[jdobbin]

Well your right....this may be a long going battle and honestly we will never be able to totally leave

the middle east....

I've often thought we might end up leaving a rapid response force in a friendlier place ala Camp Mirage.

[capricorn]

Sure.... and they can eliminate the human rights commission, close the border to all immigrants who aren't pink,Christian and english-speaking, bring the bible back to the schools, spend us into glorious wealth, lock up every child who misbehaves, deport separatists, outlaw abortion entirely, and privatize everything from the highway system to the nuclear safety commission..... politicize the judiciary , the senate, police and military, and give industry an unfettered hand to poison every square inch of the country. If they manage to chase those damned women out of the workforce and back into the kitchen where they belong, so much the better.

Utopia.

I'm relieved that Harper's hidden agenda is finally brought to light. BTW, speaking of the Conservatives trying to frighten voters into supporting them, I see you've got your own fear campaign going Molly.

[Molly]

I call 'em as I see 'em.

[Dave_ON]

Sure.... and they can eliminate the human rights commission, close the border to all immigrants who aren't pink,Christian and english-speaking, bring the bible back to the schools, spend us into glorious wealth, lock up every child who misbehaves, deport separatists, outlaw abortion entirely, and privatize everything from the highway system to the nuclear safety commission..... politicize the judiciary , the senate, police and military, and give industry an unfettered hand to poison every square inch of the country. If they manage to chase those damned women out of the workforce and back into the kitchen where they belong, so much the better.

Utopia.

You forgot to mention show the gays the error of their ways.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It seems that attack politics are the name of the game here as well as in the media. I don't think that its the right way to go at this point.

[Molly]

Jerry, Jerry.... so sober when you should be giggling.

A little bit of obviously tongue-in-cheek hyperbole is a great way to start the day. Better than All Bran.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Jerry, Jerry.... so sober when you should be giggling.

A little bit of obviously tongue-in-cheek hyperbole is a great way to start the day. Better than All Bran.

True enough. Perhaps I should mention that I am on 24 hour call and that the time frames are not set. Explanation; right now I am scheduled to go to work in about 18 hours, but that will likely change. So I sort of sleep here and there and am often just out of bed when I am online here.

[Alex Moore]

Well for starters, the tag line to this campaign has already been labeled "We can do better". By itself that statement leads the average citizen to think that at the very least the plan calls for improvements to the current state of affairs. From there we can see an alternative way of doing things for the citizens that don't think we are doing well enough right now. Keep in mind that the loss of thousands of jobs in the manufacturing sector will not go well for the Conservative party. Those job losses will not simply stop, they will continue for a while yet and that means EI issues. Again not something that looks good for the Conservatives. So with one simple statement the Liberals provide the foundation for a solid campaign of positive vision. Harper is left with tweaking all the parts of the government that are not working well, including programs and service delivery. Once again this is an area that doesn't look good for the Conservatives. Harper is going to have to justify his actions with the public whereas Iggy simply says there is a better way to do all this stuff.

This time around the incumbent has the heavy lifting to do and the opposition can simply point at the problems or offer solutions the government hasn't explored. The positive vision that Iggy is putting out there is simply on the other side of the street from the reality of day to day governance and is very likely the easiest way to uproot the Conservative government.

... How to say this politely...

Jerry you are grievously mistaken to assume that a gripe about EI reform and empty campaign promises is some kind of view/vision/charted pathway for the country.

If you actually look at the the criticisms Mr. Iggnatieff has leveled against the changes in the EI Reform. The are minor technicalities at best. In addition to this the history of issue demonstrates clearly that Mr. Iggnatieff is exploiting this issue politically and has no interest in EI reform.

Yes I would agree that job losses and the current recession does not look good for the government. (it never does) but that does not justify the political maneuvering Mr. Iggnatieff is doing.

you still have offered anything concrete as to what Mr. Iggnatieff would like to do if elected. "we can do better" is too vague

I agree with Toadbrother we currently do not have any leaders that have a vision for the country.

[Argus]

So are you saying that people shouldn't care now?

No, I think it's just putting things into perspective.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

a milita/civil defence to control smuggling, illegal entry, illegal fishing is all we need...if you want to protect our territorial claims then we have to play for real and be serious about it, as it is now Harper is only posturing...

It's funny how every national government on Earth; right wing, left wing, centrist, royalist, democratic, theocracy, dictatorship, every single one of them believes they need a military for a variety of purposes.

Oh if only they were as enlightened as you!

[Argus]

this fight can't be won, you cannot defeat an idea...it's a waste of time, lives and resources...

Communism is pretty much dead. The military might not have defeated it by itself, but it sure kept us around until it could collapse.

National Socialism doesn't rule over too many countries these days either.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Well for starters, the tag line to this campaign has already been labeled "We can do better". By itself that statement

Is meaningless.

leads the average citizen to think that at the very least the plan calls for improvements to the current state of affairs.

Plan? What plan?

From there we can see an alternative way of doing things for the citizens that don't think we are doing well enough right now. Keep in mind that the loss of thousands of jobs in the manufacturing sector will not go well for the Conservative party.

And what would Ignatieff have done to stop that and what does he plan to do to recover them?

Those job losses will not simply stop, they will continue for a while yet and that means EI issues. Again not something that looks good for the Conservatives. So with one simple statement the Liberals provide the foundation for a solid campaign of positive vision

A "solid campaign of positive vision" still needs something, like, uhm, vision.

.

Harper is left with tweaking all the parts of the government that are not working well, including programs and service delivery. Once again this is an area that doesn't look good for the Conservatives. Harper is going to have to justify his actions with the public whereas Iggy simply says there is a better way to do all this stuff.

Every politician says he knows better. But until Ignatieff says something or comes out with something which has more than a catch phrase they stole from an American political campaign those of us a tad more level headed are not going to be much impressed.

The positive vision that Iggy is putting out there is simply on the other side of the street

Or maybe the other side of a mountain, or the other side of the clouds, cause nobody else seems able to see it.

[Argus]

I call 'em as I see 'em.

Might i suggest...

Better Vision is at Hand

[wyly]

Communism is pretty much dead. The military might not have defeated it by itself, but it sure kept us around until it could collapse.

National Socialism doesn't rule over too many countries these days either.

the military never defeated an idea governments yes ideas no, communism is still with us as is national socialism and the miltary can not defeat Extreme Islamic beliefs any more than our civil laws can eliminate extreme Mormon beliefs....the Taliban need not win a single battle and yet they still will not lose this war...

"You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind."- Mahatma Gandhi